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Kamen Rider Zi-O Episode 39- "DenLiner Crash 2007" Discussion
Sougo's uncle Junichiro is asked to repair a mysterious train, after a sudden visit from four very strange creatures...
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That felt very much like just another episode of Den-O. Quite fun and a number of great moments.
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They actually acknowledged the Yuto/Kiriya thing. And one I give credit for is that compared to last years Build's Genius form tease, they actually show Grand Zi-O in action, in a semi sense.
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I think what helps Grand's case compared to Build Genius is that we get teases and glimpses of it and the creation of it in this episode.
It's not like it gets created in the episode and Sougo transforms only for the episode to end before the fight can start. Works a lot better even if we'll be waiting 2 weeks on the resolution. |
From the moment the Taros showed up I was grinning ear to ear. Their writing wasn't quite as authentic as I felt it was in Forever, but frankly? It goddamn works, and the best scenes in this episode were them with Juniichiro.
Which isn't to say the rest of this episode wasn't great, because this is the best one since Agito! There's just something so charismatic that a crossover with Den-O brings to a series, and everything in this episode was balanced well I felt. It's criminal they're making me wait 2 weeks to see the resolution because I'm looking forward to everything here! |
That was a great episode.
Momotaros as Geiz, I want more of that. And yeah I'm glad they pointed out the Kiriya/Yuuto connection. Would have been fun if they also had Sieg. Wonder what he's up to. |
I guess drive watch from future count, two weeks. Btw they need stop casting teens as motw. Another zio, hiniki, and now deno feel like same to me. At first i thought it was one of them coming back. Tributes are getting better, but main plot and core cast aren't interesting. Ginga shoehorning is done. Just so many undeserved power without hard work.
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One little detail I love is that when Grand Zi-O summons the Legend Riders, you can actually see scenery from episodes of their show in the background (or in OOO’s case, the foreground).
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Really enjoyed the episode, that was basically an episode of Den-O, and I loved it.
And Grand Zi-O looks better then I actually believed it would, Decade Complete is still the worst final form look XD So the main power is basically the same as Decade Complete, summoning, which yeah, for an anniversary riders final form, one that lets them summon them for attacks fits. |
really enjoys this episode. only question is the same one i had in generation movie. is did the writer forget that owner let imagine now henshin as den-o with out the need to have host. as i was also looking forward to geiz posses by momo to henshin in to Den-O and also so does this mean sougo and co forgot who momotaros and the other where and meeting them in film along with another den-o.
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Well, remember; Sougo and co. never actually met the Imagin before -- they only met 'Ryotarou' who assumed 4 forms of Den-O. Technically, they've never seen any of these people before.
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They should of explore the myth and lore of ohmaZio more. The rules of obtaining the ride watch change so much. The time jackers are easily the least threatening enemies. In any cases, they are more like allies with schwartz diliberaly handed out watches indirectly. Build and other shows had it flaws near the end with mvoie tie in and expectation differentiation, but there were moe stakes and struggles. You feel the cast slowly and rapidly gaining power to compete against one and another. Zio feel like the typically filler motw that recently do a better job at tributes, but the main story is lackluster. They really got decade back to drag the tsukiyomi storyline since the 20s. We're reaching 40s. I honestly think ohma zio should of could of been a midseason boss. Time jackers and maybe another 3rd party like ginga could be a bigger fold later on. The happy go lucky and bland cast + underdevelop trio of time jackers keep getting ourshine by the guest of the week. I'm more intrigue about the guest than the main cast. The tsukiyomi/Schwartz is so slow at trying to plant seed at this late in the game. They should of reveal the twist during agito arc and raise other mystery and questions instead of dropping or delaying until the end. The same with lupin ranger, but lupin ranger did a better job at character developments even in fillers. |
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Gonna address this one by one (LONG POST AHEAD):
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Watch comes from the future, is given/obtained by Sougo in the past. Which in turn leads to Sougo still having the watch in future episodes up to the 2068 timeline. The only exception this early on is Ghost, where the future watch is destroyed, and the present one is created, making another causal loop since the watch came from 2068. Zi-O II (at least one half) came from Woz, but the watch was inactive due to lacking its pair. The second part was given to Sougo by his Mirror Self after Sougo decided that he would accept the good and bad in him instead of trying to turn a blind eye or outright prevent it (like he had until now). In fact, it is Sougo's declaration of his acceptance, in addition to his time powers, that causes Tsukuyomi to turn on him. But we'll get to that later. Quote:
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Well, I should think the timeline thing would make a bit of sense- Another Riders (in the first half of the show) take over the role of their respective Rider, thus, erasing the timeline (events of the show, destroying the mooks, no rider powers); basically making a giant gap where that Rider's show should be, until it is corrected. And as for the show's retcons? They're not exactly retcons? This is a time travel story. I don't know what you want. If you want a cohesive narrative, you're not getting it with time travel. Quote:
We might also get some explanation in the show; it's been stated that the Zi-O II watch used on Oma Day turns Sougo into his Oma form in the OG timeline. That's pretty much all we need to know at the moment. Quote:
From what I've seen, the watches are made by absorbing the Rider's powers. We see this in the Build, Blade, and Kabuto arc: Sento's memories returning activates the watch, Blade's Joker powers are absorbed into the watch, the Kabuto Zecter (or what I/some believe is the legit Kabuto Zecter) simply morphs into the watch. Quote:
As we've seen in-show, they often fight one another. Swartz gave Heure a Japanese Christmas gift meant to teach kids the importance of money, effectively looking down on him; Hora and Swartz basically abuse Heure as Another Kikai; Hora and Heure are shocked by Another Zi-O. Swartz and Heure got ice cream together, but I dunno about that. They seem like they put up with each other more than they're actually working together. Although they do appear to have a common goal (at least to Heure and Hora's eyes). We all know Swartz is pulling the strings. But for what, we don't know. The story seems like we're gonna get some backstory for all three Jackers soon. Quote:
And Sougo's struggle is against a horrible future 90% of the cast have experienced, that he himself caused. Geiz's initial fight (up until Revive) was a conflict with his moral compass; kill an innocent for his future crimes or see if he can change. Tsukuyomi's got three dilemmas that I can see; one with Sougo becoming Oma via Zi-O II, potentially making her attempt to change him for naught; the other involved her powers potentially making her a Time Jacker, the dudes they've been fighting all this time; and the shocker that she has amnesia and was apparently siblings with Swartz. Quote:
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I don't think you can exactly kill the ruler of all time when you're at that level of power. Not to mention, they had other things to worry about, like Sougo and Geiz's big fight to decide which timeline will be the one "currently active". Can't exactly put that on hold to go fight the hero's ultimate form. Quote:
Bland? Have you been watching the same show as us? Sougo is a young dude with grand dreams (hehe). And despite taking the inital blow hard (meeting his future self), he's resolved to stop it. His Mirror Self even mocked him, talking about his way with words and how he effectively convinced Geiz to kill himself beating Another Ryuga. Geiz is a battle-hardened man who has only known the reign of terror his ruler imposes over him and is sent back to off his younger self. Upon seeing his overlord's less-than-humble beginnings, he begins to wonder if he should do the deed. He flip-flops between this, ultimately deciding to give him one last chance (episode 15, IIRC) by convincing him to toss his belt. And even then, when confronted with the split timeline, he hesitates. Sougo's his friend. He wouldn't kill him! But then he gets Zi-O II, and even Tsukuyomi, who beckoned to spare him at first, is rooting his his blood to spill. His hesitation leads him to believe that Tsukuyomi is dead, which pushes him over the despair event horizon and gives him access to Revive. When Tsukuyomi is revealed to be alive, the trio rejoice and now work towards Sougo's goal. Tsukuyomi is a hard one to pin down, being that we don't know much about her yet. But she is Swartz's younger sister and both have time-stopping powers. But apparently back in 2008 (IIRC) was Swartz's first time meeting her? There are some timey-wimey shenanigans going on and I can't wait to figure out what. :D That's not even mentioning her awesome combat prowess. Not backing down from a monster and actively shooting at them (Another Build)? A slide kick to an assailant (Kasshin)? Even if she doesn't fight much, that's EPIC. Woz is a wacky hypeman and I love him and he is mine~ Junichiro is the best uncle ever, with his "it's close enough to a clock, I can fix it" gag and his unwavering "uh-huh, sure" parent attitude towards Sougo's wacky adventures ("He's up in space? That far? He's gonna be hungry when he gets back!"). This cast is very quirky and I really, really enjoy them. Just because the show started off slow doesn't make it bad. Also, yeah, the cast is small, but that allows the writers to dole out development evenly, instead of assigning a few traits to everyone and hoping that interactions flesh them out. This cast is good! Quote:
In the Agito arc, it was revealed that she has amnesia and some pretty nifty Za Warudo powers. Now, in the Kabuto arc, 'twas shown that she is actually the sister of the leader of the faction she's fighting, but doesn't know more than that. She's got more usefulness than your typical token female. _____ Overall, all I can really boil this down to is... You hate Zi-O. You're watching it because of the past Riders and are hoping the show will get better. But here we are, near the end of the show, and it still "hasn't improved" in your eyes. I just think you're watching the show for a reason to hate on it. Not just for the tributes. That's unhealthy; I ruined two friendships because of my rants on Build. Zi-O isn't for you. And that's okay. But watching the episode and coming into the thread to hate on it isn't. A lot of us like Zi-O and, while we enjoy a good discussion, you seem to leave no doors open. Starting to wonder if you're just trolling us, ngl. All I've ever seen you do is complain about the show. Say the show has bad writing. Say the cast is worse than any other. Say the forms are given out like candy. "It's bad and it'll never be redeemed unless it does exactly as I say." |
Even though the Imagins have made reappearances over the years more often than anyone else, something about this episode felt more authentically like the original Den-O show then other times. Maybe it's because of just the fact that so many of them are here, including Yuuto and Deneb, and they're actually interacting with the cast and each other in a natural way instead of just spouting catchphrases.
Throw in a stray Imagin with his own goals along with the Another Rider's personal story, and we've got a really chaotic series of events going on, but it's a fun kind of chaos instead of a confusing one! There probably isn't much point in talking about Grand Zi-O since it won't properly debut until two weeks from now, but I do like how it's 'summoning' power works, which seems to literally pluck the other riders out of a moment from their history and they proceed to act as they would have from those moments. I can see Sougo summoning a Build Genius shouting "This is the power of Kamen Riders, Evolt!" just to kick some mook in the face for example, or summoning Putotyra in the middle of a rampage and sic him on whoever Zi-O is facing. |
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So Grand Zi-O is like Decade Complete but instead of the Kamen Rider that is summoned just copying Decade's movements, it literally is the Kamen Riders themselves but taken from some point in their time to aid Zi-O (possibly unknowingly). |
Let me say this to start...
I have no idea what the show is even doing with Drive at this point. Sougo has always had the future Drive Ride Watch but he also needs to get the present Drive Watch so he can unlock his ultimate form - the show has been making a big deal out of still needing the last two Ride Watches. Except Sougo just unlocked Grand Zi-O with the future Drive Watch. And now it looks like we won't be getting any Drive tributes until the summer movie, which isn't out until late July. How the hell does any of this work? Anyway, this episode was definitely a Den-O tribute. Couldn't possibly care less about the rando with the stupid hair and his dead sister, but it's good to see Yuuto and all the Imagin again. Gotta love Sougo's priorities, though: Another Den-O is about to steal the Den Liner, so let's use our finishing attack on Zeronos instead. That was productive. |
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Plenty of speculation around that Oma Zi-O could destroy his Drive Ride Watch, preventing Geiz from stealing it in the future and further preventing Sougo from using Grand again until he collects a contemporary Drive watch.
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But... Ohma doesn't have a Drive Ridewatch right now. The one Geiz stole is the one he had.
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Hey everyone, guess what time it is!
https://i.imgur.com/B4KsGBE.jpg Yeah, no. Unfortunately, we're going to be waiting a while to actually see that shiny new Watch in action. Which is a shame when this episode is so awesome. There's not much I can complain about here. Like, I was considering whining about Zeronos using Altair Form, but then I remembered we've established pretty thoroughly how f***ed up the timestream is by this point, so not only am I willing to consider this canon, I think Zi-O might've accidentally explained away Climax Deka while it's at it. Not bad, although I can't help but think if Shimoyama were writing this he would've had it be Zero Form. He also probably wouldn't quite be insane enough to have Sougo's uncle fixing up the Den-Liner, though, so don't think I'm dissing Nobuhiro Mouri. At this point, he's pretty much the de facto co-head writer for this show, and he's continuing a long streak of extremely successful episodes with this one. As a Den-O fan, it's got everything I could want. Seeing Yuuto in action was an absolute delight, especially since he's clearly winning against all of Zi-O's Riders at once, in his base form. That bit where jumps over Zi-O is especially awesome. But of course, what's Yuuto without Deneb, who is also here and being as great as ever. Plus all the Taros back at once, just in case the deal wasn't sweet enough already. I wanna say you can tell Kobayashi wasn't helping with the dialogue this time, but I have a strong bias when it comes to these things, so putting that aside, I'm pretty sure everyone was acting right. They also didn't miss both the opportunities for obvious jokes with Yuuto/Kiriya and Trinity/Climax, but what really impressed me was how naturally they found an excuse to get Momotaros as a part of Zi-O Trinity, which is actually quite clever and not something I expected. Combine all this with a boatload of background music straight out of 2007, and you've got yourself a heck of a tribute. As a Zi-O fan, this is a very exciting setup, but as often happens with this show, it's hard to say much more than that without the resolution. Grand Zi-O is definitely cool, though. Maybe I'm late to the party with this observation because I haven't looked at catalogs or anything, but with the two extra belts on the side, it's neat that it's basically Zi-O III. I mean, I guess Trinity kinda did that, too, but those extra belts weren't Sougo's. Oh, and the summoning other Riders shtick was cool too, I guess. That's probably more important than how many belts he has. Waiting an extra week for the conclusion here seems cruel, but thinking about it, I'd rather wait for this than like, if the Kiva two-parter got interrupted by golf. The more upset I am about waiting, the better the show is doing, right? |
Best character alert, coming up.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D8uV_TIXUAAaLss.jpg:large But yeah. As a fan of Den-O, this was everything I could have wanted, with the tiny caveat that we've already had Takeru Satoh back that one time that apprently didn't count, maybe. Generations Forever was a weird film, everyone's memory's got wiped by Time Travel logic, easy. Yuuto and Deneb are as great as ever, and credit where credit's due, the Imagin voice actors continue a streak of great performances. You'd think they'd be sick of cameos after 12 years of this, but I'm glad they aren't. The villain definitely shows how Den-O's formula still works all this time later, in a show where MOTW is prevalent and two weeks is the perfect arc length for these self-contained chunks. Another Den-O himself is alright, definitely our most pitiful AnotherRider in a while - the Time Jackers made a great choice, and Hora continues to be the Useless Queen. Even Heure's figured out something is up with all of this, and he's, like, 9. Grand Zi-O looks pretty good, and his gimmick is a nice twist on stuff we've seen before. Cloning time as an attack is pretty nifty. I'm pretty sure we'll get an answer as to how we "cheated the rules" with the future Drive watch, considering Woz mentioned how he still needs it (which is more foresight than I ever thought Zi-O would have when Geiz showed up with them back in episode 1), so I'm not letting it bother me. It makes more sense than wherever Trinity came from, put it that way. The worst part of this arc? Having to wait two weeks for it to be finishes. Thanks, golf-gom / whatever sport it is this time/ |
if grand zi-o destroys oma, does sougo die or does it create a new timeline?
im just speculating that because we know that if sougo does become oma, we wont be seeing zi-o anymore meaning he wont be in the movie wars which is why i believe this wont happen. i believe that grand will defeat oma which will probably create a new timeline for the timejackers to possibly go to the showa era to find a new king aka oma which means more ridewatches, that fails, im guessing schartz or someone else will find the zi-o ridewatch combining all the another rider ride watches which creates an ultimate another rider or becomes oma zi-o in 2019. |
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Would be a bit weird if Sougo is so extremely against becoming Oma Zi-O that he kills him... and then still goes on to become him. But, hey; I guess when you grow up you lose all those young naive thoughts of, uh, being a nice person and not wanting to kill, maim and enslave.
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Would it kill them to just play the show after golf finishes airing for that day.
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Somehow I never fully realized that we are technically watching a show about a guy who is going to kill himself. Even if it is his future self would that technically be suicide?
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That's what I'm expecting atleast. |
RE: the Drive watch
Presumably the future Drive watch works for 'collect all of them' but they'll still have to create it to prevent a time paradox. Granted, this shows' time-travel rules aren't tight but I assume that's what they're doing. |
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Waited a week before watching to hold me over during golf season. Really excited for next week.
First off, giving us a sneak peak of Grand Zi-O before the week break was just harsh. The form is gaudy as all hell but its powers are really cool to see in motion. I love that he just straight-up summons the Rider from their original timeline. It's clearly Sento and Godai that appear as Build and Kuuga respectively thanks to some archived voice work, but it's most obvious with OOO's kick, which comes complete with the three chunks of cement pillar from episode 3. And then Gaim's backdrop is directly from the first episode. It's pretty creative and executed well and I cannot wait to see what other tricks Grand Zi-O has up his sleeve. Then we head back to days earlier, when the Den-Liner crashed outside Kujigojido. Right off the bat we know this is going to be a loving tribute to Den-O - the use of original music and visual effects brought me right back to 2007 and the plot involved all of the returning cast members in a meaningful way. Momotaros, Urataros, Ryuutaros and Kintaros have their comedic moments as expected, but the stand-out guests this time were Deneb and Yuuto, who really stole the show in my opinion. It's cool to have Zeronos involved in the Oma Zi-O plot in a certain sense, fulfilling the role Geiz once carried. And I love Deneb to hell so to see him handing out Deneb candy again made me smile. Aside from that, small elements like Zeronos going Altair form, an Imagin actually playing a part in the plot and use of plot elements from Den-O helped sell the authenticity of the tribute. I mean, we've seen it before in Heisei Gen Forever. Speaking of which, though the episode never directly contradicts that film (Sougo and Geiz technically never met Nogami's Imagin) they seem to go out of their way to leave its events unacknowledged. Which is weird since we had Sougo remembering the sound of the Den-Liner just last episode. From a drama perspective, I couldn't care less about Another Den-O and the mole Imagin's host, but that could change by next week. Comedy-wise, this episode was stellar. The throw-away reference to Kiriya and Yuuto's actor being the same got me laughing out loud. Ryuutaros possessing Sougo's uncle was hysterical, and I love how non-nonchalant he was with the Imagin. And then repairing their frickin' train, despite being a "mere" clock fixer. The scene of him revving the bike is truly meme-worthy. This further cements him as a brilliant character! And Momotaros possessing Geiz was also hilarious. I love the callback to the first Den-O episode with Tsukuyomi showing Momo how to turn into Geiz Revive and man, that swagger. You don't really register it since we only ever see it in Sword form, but the way Momo moves is so distinct and its really apparent here, with added comedic value. Some great suit acting all around. Patiently awaiting next episode and also curious to see what they do with Drive, seeing as Mach and Krim have their cameo in the movie. |
I absolutely love Grand Zi-O!
It's grandiose, ostentatious, kingly, glorified, and certainly intimidating. I definitely prefer this ultimate form over Decade's Complete form- this looks way better. Seeing as how Decade continued to create Rider Cards long after his series ended, do you think his Complete Form would look a tad different now? |
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