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Kamen Rider Zi-O Episode 7- "Magic Showtime 2018!" Discussion
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10-23-2018, 04:52 PM
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Librarian
Omnipresent Historian
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: In the now.
Posts: 707
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KRWolfblade
Also, Librarian, barnstenchfartface and catwhowalks are just trying to explain that maybe your theory is incorrect, they're not lecturing you. The '-kun' honorific is very commonly used to refer to someone who is younger or of lower status. It really isn't that deep. However, we're only 7 episodes into the series so it's possible your theory could be right, if proven true.
Kinda do in their case.
And that's by text book on the honorific, in practice, if you pay attention to wide media in Japan. It is indeed used as I said more by familiarity and usually causes offense if you randomly use it on someone, or you'll be viewed as slightly condescending or trying to be overtly familiar. Same as the more cutesy upbeat -chan suffix. Though that is a more direct familiarity or cheerful usage for endearment, usually not with condescension tones, though can depending on how it's used. That one's more tone and what's being said based. Whereas -kun is more belittling direct because of how it directly says "below the speaker"(either by age, experience, or position, but usually more often refers to age/experience but is a different acceptance between friends/normal everyday interactions due to familiarity of who it is being said to, in which case it's used as a "fondness" remark). Not much different than similar old people phrases when they talk down to someone below their age, unless they are familiar with the person, it's viewed as disparaging/patronizing.
The same instance here with how Woz is using it on Tsukuyomi. He's directly calling her "Young and naive" without saying it word for word, but is implying that "she's not as learned in these matters as he but she will be over time". Visually, this is also heightened by positioning to carry the dialogue more directly. Which is a universally common film technique. (I also gave media references that correspond to this, and can give more. But like I said, Faiz seemed rather poignant to bring up, because it was a very big deal in Faiz that Takumi hated being called Tak-kun, and this is right after the Faiz episodes. But literally every anime and live show of the last 20+ years, if you pay attention, it's used more by familiarity and less as a granted, usually only those that are at minimum friends, or some other kind of direct interaction relationship, sometimes a crush. Rarely to never a full stranger unless it's to belittle or patronize.)
It's the difference in learning from a text book and paying attention to native speakers(or paying attention wrong). All languages have words like that. Like there's a spanish word that by textbook isn't that big of a deal, but in practice, it's actually a native language slang term the text book teachings wouldn't cover. German and other languages have these too. Same as English has those to those learning it by textbook over native speaker practice. If you take a conversational class with a native speaking teacher, they'll even tell you this. It was one of the things my teacher covered within the first couple of weeks. So I'm going to take his word as a native Japanese speaker over some random person from the internet any day. (I took Conversational Modern Japanese, but dropped it before learning all the katakana and Kanji. One of the lesson plans covered was the various suffix. I actually do complain about how bad subs are quite often, but on this one, I actually have to side with the subbers on. For intent and detail usage, the subbers were right on word choice. Though I do still giggle about how they changed "memo" to "note". But that was more them screwing around likely. Self-taught will also miss this detail normally unless they are observant to conversational nuance.)
So my comment on their arrogance was in the assumption they think I don't know anything about the language. Which they would be surprised about because of my line of work and how long I've been doing my line of work. So yeah, it gets very old getting "lectured" by others when I'm well aware of something. It's like how "mansplaining" is really annoying. Though it's especially annoying when it's blatantly wrong and perpetuating ignorance. And they're ignoring visual evidence of such right in front of them in the scene construction/positioning itself as well as the surrounding details.
So yeah, I think hitting their arrogance & ignorance back "aggressively" is appropriate(especially considering the opening remark on their part was condemnation using their own ignorance). These are the kind of fans that'd blatantly argue with writers or producers over details they had put into a show. If they were offering something factual or contributing then sure I'd thank them. Instead they're arguing ignorance. They are either ignorant on conversational Japanese, or are blatantly trying to hide a detail by butchering language usage and nuance. So out of the options, it's either they're ignorant and trying to act smart or wanting people to not notice what's blatantly there. Either one isn't a troll type I feel like putting up with. We have enough ignorance in the fandom that thinks things are true that blatantly aren't. If they want to take it up with someone, then they should aim their complaints at the subbers, but in this instance, the sub group is correct in their assessment, so I don't see that going over well for them either.
Watch any anime or live show, and you'll notice this on the suffix too. It's very rarely used on non-familiar people, and when it is, it's usually eye roll inducing in the body language of the person it's being said to. More often, to non-familiar people, the suffix is dropped. Or the proper suffix is used for respectfulness(-san), like how in english generally we used to use "sir" or "ma'am". Except in rare occasions of elders and children, but even then it's patronizing technically. A nicety form to try and invoke friendly familiarity, but still.
So what I said about the scene still stands. -Kun was used deliberately there for an emphatic point. To disregard that, is to disregard a detail the show itself is trying to hit you over the head with blatantly. Especially with Woz's deliberate positioning in the scene to say the line. Which is to deliberately carry the point even more emphatically. It's a universal film technique used as such, one of the most basic and obvious. So saying to "ignore it" is to deliberately miss a point the show is trying to make. Which as we've seen time and time again, the show will spell out directly for the viewer later anyway(in this instance, it stalled that by having her sleep through Woz's help). But here is indeed an early hint of it intentionally. Which makes sense why the subbers chose "young". It's not as patronizing as "little" but gets the emphatic nature across that's intended more than using -kun because of how oblivious foreign language viewers are to details. Trying to argue otherwise is to deliberately force yourself into ignorance of the scene itself. Especially since Woz doesn't use that to refer to Tsukuyomi any other time. So it was indeed to prod/goad her, like how he was teasing Geiz too in the episode.
Last edited by Librarian; 10-23-2018 at
11:55 PM
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