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09-26-2016, 08:15 PM | #11 |
The Immortal King Tasty
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In Ryuki you had more anti-heroic/villainous Riders who CONSTANTLY butt heads with our straight-laced hero. Guys like Kaixa and Chalice couldn't exist without guys like Ohja and Knight. That's what I was trying to get at. The concepts in Ryuki would've happened eventually, sure, but the way Ryuki did them really marked Heisei Rider moving into to its own style after the more straightforward stuff in Kuuga and Agito. Faiz and Blade in particular I feel are very close to Ryuki stylistically.
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09-26-2016, 08:22 PM | #12 |
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It's not the number, it's the way they're written. The three guys in Agito were all explicitly heroes who occasionally got into fights early on because *misunderstandings*.
In Ryuki you had more anti-heroic/villainous Riders who CONSTANTLY butt heads with our straight-laced hero. Guys like Kaixa and Chalice couldn't exist without guys like Ohja and Knight. That's what I was trying to get at. The concepts in Ryuki would've happened eventually, sure, but the way Ryuki did them really marked Heisei Rider moving into to its own style after the more straightforward stuff in Kuuga and Agito. Faiz and Blade in particular I feel are very close to Ryuki stylistically.
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09-26-2016, 08:33 PM | #13 |
Stronger Than You
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Quote:
It's not the number, it's the way they're written. The three guys in Agito were all explicitly heroes who occasionally got into fights early on because *misunderstandings*.
In Ryuki you had more anti-heroic/villainous Riders who CONSTANTLY butt heads with our straight-laced hero. Guys like Kaixa and Chalice couldn't exist without guys like Ohja and Knight. That's what I was trying to get at. The concepts in Ryuki would've happened eventually, sure, but the way Ryuki did them really marked Heisei Rider moving into to its own style after the more straightforward stuff in Kuuga and Agito. Faiz and Blade in particular I feel are very close to Ryuki stylistically. If the Riders in Agito were willing to get into fights over misunderstandings, then Chalice or Kaixa don't owe anything to Ohja when it comes to their eventual creations.
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09-26-2016, 09:21 PM | #14 |
The Immortal King Tasty
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Yeah, but is yours any better? I don't mean to be rude but I fail to see how the changes Ryuki made to the formula can't be credited TO Ryuki just because they were the result of outside forces or evolutions of existing things. Of course they were. Most things are. Kamen Rider has always gone with the times because of course it does, that's how it stays successful and relevant. Quote:
If the Riders in Agito were willing to get into fights over misunderstandings, then Chalice or Kaixa don't owe anything to Ohja when it comes to their eventual creations.
In Agito, two Riders actually getting into a fight was an event. It didn't happen too often (and basically not at all after the halfway point). Most of the time you just saw the Riders fighting monsters, and a lot of the time individually. In Ryuki onwards, it's a frequent thing, and the Riders have beef as people too. Faiz and Kaixa may not actually fight a whole lot, but Takumi and Kusaka are constantly bickering. This didn't happen AT ALL in Agito. The whole dramatic irony at play in that show was that the three leads didn't know each others' identities at first, and actually got along just fine. Sure a card game was probably going to be jammed into Kamen Rider at some point, but I refuse to believe this would've. Yes, multiple Riders and evil Riders are all things that would happen with or without Ryuki, but the very specific WAY that Ryuki did it directly informed the way almost every show after would do it. Even a show as different from Ryuki as Ghost still does stuff like this.
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09-26-2016, 09:22 PM | #15 |
Victorious Knight
Join Date: Dec 2013
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I think the franchise would be pretty close the where it is now but it would have taken longer to get there. Kamen Rider Ryuki gave us a lot of things that were pretty monumental - a Kamen Rider being the final enemy, the multiple Riders, Riders who have their own unique, often selfish, reasons for fighting. It added an interesting layer of depth to the franchise, building upon the dramatic character interactions Agito gave viewers.
But yeah, Ryuki was, at least very early on, a Metal Hero series, it has a couple of traits of the franchise as well: giant ally monsters and heroes fighting in different dimensions. |
09-26-2016, 09:47 PM | #16 |
Stronger Than You
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Yeah, but is yours any better? I don't mean to be rude but I fail to see how the changes Ryuki made to the formula can't be credited TO Ryuki just because they were the result of outside forces or evolutions of existing things. Of course they were. Most things are. Kamen Rider has always gone with the times because of course it does, that's how it stays successful and relevant.
Kamen Rider has always been evolving and changing. It should be without question that we'd hit the point that we'd have a villainous Kamen Rider. Just because Ryuki was the first to have it doesn't make it that momentous. It goes without saying that, considering the basic idea of Kamen Rider is that it's heroes from justice birthed from evil, that eventually we'd hit a point where we get a character that starts and actually stays evil. As an aside, no, I'm not staunchly placing my feet in the ground for this counterargument. All I meant is that evil riders was an inevitability. Ryuki having the first one is a big deal, but the franchise wouldn't be that different if Ryuki didn't.
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09-26-2016, 10:00 PM | #17 |
The Immortal King Tasty
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If we're talking about pointless hypothetical realities where Ryuki doesn't exist, what about the one where in 2002 Toei decided to have Rider become an ensemble show with 2 or 3 (i.e. not quite Sentai still) explicitly, generically heroic Riders from the start, fighting a series of equally generic villain Riders who had no real depth beyond "doesn't like the good guys". Still the same basic concepts, but because Toei decided they wanted something more kid-friendly/less ambitious, the franchise heads in a completely different direction. I'm sure things would more-or-less even out eventually, but the fact that Ryuki exists, and that it exists as it does, is significant. Maybe not as much as a couple other shows, but more than like 90% of them.
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09-27-2016, 12:22 AM | #18 |
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Kaixa is more debatable but he was ultimately on the "good" side, even if it's only by comparison to the actual villains. Quote:
In Ryuki onwards, it's a frequent thing, and the Riders have beef as people too. Faiz and Kaixa may not actually fight a whole lot, but Takumi and Kusaka are constantly bickering. This didn't happen AT ALL in Agito. The whole dramatic irony at play in that show was that the three leads didn't know each others' identities at first, and actually got along just fine.
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09-27-2016, 12:48 AM | #19 |
The Immortal King Tasty
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In Agito there's a fundamental disconnect between the Riders and their alter-egos that, outside of Kiva and Ixa, simply isn't there in the other shows. That disconnect is the root of everybody's problems and once they figure the truth out they quickly patch things up. Consider Tachibana's whole "traitor" phase early on in Blade, for example. Him and Kenzaki actually DO talk to one another a bunch and while misunderstandings are still at the heart of their conflict, there's more to it than just "Agito may be one of the monsters!/killed my girlfriend!" and the way it plays out ends up being very different. Their problems are with each other. It's not exactly like Ryuki either but it owes way more to that show than it does to Agito. Ryuki really cemented the kind of melodrama that drove the next half-decade or so of Kamen Rider, even if the seeds were planted in Agito.
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09-27-2016, 10:31 AM | #20 |
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There's a big difference between how Agito does it and how Ryuki-Decade did it. It's only more similar to Agito on the surface. The morality of the Riders in Ryuki isn't the important part. I can't stress that enough.
In Agito there's a fundamental disconnect between the Riders and their alter-egos that, outside of Kiva and Ixa, simply isn't there in the other shows. That disconnect is the root of everybody's problems and once they figure the truth out they quickly patch things up. Consider Tachibana's whole "traitor" phase early on in Blade, for example. Him and Kenzaki actually DO talk to one another a bunch and while misunderstandings are still at the heart of their conflict, there's more to it than just "Agito may be one of the monsters!/killed my girlfriend!" and the way it plays out ends up being very different. Their problems are with each other. It's not exactly like Ryuki either but it owes way more to that show than it does to Agito. Ryuki really cemented the kind of melodrama that drove the next half-decade or so of Kamen Rider, even if the seeds were planted in Agito. Really though, I'd say that the trend you describe stems more from an overall trend with toku than specifically Ryuki and mostly because of more anti-heroic characters being introduced, something that dates back as far as V3 if we're talking specifically Rider. And if we're talking purely villainous Riders, Shadow Moon is the template for that concept I'd say. While not outright being a Kamen Rider himself, his power pretty much stems from the same source as Black (at least in the first Black series, he was definitely a villain). Really, if Shadow Moon was created in modern times, he'd be called Kamen Rider Shadow. Thing is, back in the Showa Era, they were a lot more picky about who got to be a Kamen Rider.
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Last edited by MaskedRiderAsakura; 09-27-2016 at 10:47 AM.. |
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