|
Community Links |
Members List |
Search Forums |
Advanced Search |
Go to Page... |
|
Thread Tools |
04-09-2021, 06:31 PM | #691 |
The Immortal King Tasty
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Every diner you've ever been to.
Posts: 3,833
|
I heavily disagree with you on your two major criticisms of this episode, in that the stuff about Ryoutarou's memory seems fairly straightforward to me (the primary relevant information is so simple it fits entirely within the episode title), and that I think the plot with him and the Imagin is a fairly natural sort of sequel to Climax Form's debut that's happening at a good point for it, but then, this could all be that Future Knowledge of mine making it hard for me to properly empathize with your viewing experience. Or we just have very different tastes sometimes, who knows? (We definitely have very different tastes sometimes.)
__________________
|
04-09-2021, 08:13 PM | #692 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
|
Quote:
Quote:
I heavily disagree with you on your two major criticisms of this episode, in that the stuff about Ryoutarou's memory seems fairly straightforward to me (the primary relevant information is so simple it fits entirely within the episode title), and that I think the plot with him and the Imagin is a fairly natural sort of sequel to Climax Form's debut that's happening at a good point for it, but then, this could all be that Future Knowledge of mine making it hard for me to properly empathize with your viewing experience. Or we just have very different tastes sometimes, who knows? (We definitely have very different tastes sometimes.)
For the Imagin/Ryotaro plot, I definitely think there's a way to address the conflict they're bound to have. The Imagin have hid their knowledge that this war will cost them their lives, and Ryotaro feels betrayed by that. He's been assuring the destruction of his best friends on a weekly basis. He's become complicit in their demise. He's right to be angry at them! The problem is that the episode basically puts Ryotaro at a remove for the remainder of it, so he basically comes across as a spiteful jerk for about ten straight minutes of story, with a cliffhanger where he's an incredibly spiteful jerk. But, like, of course Ryotaro isn't really a spiteful jerk, so I'm left with a story where he's not communicating anything to a group of characters he's never shown an inability to confront before, and he's being cruel in a way he usually reserves for murderers and genocidal tyrants. It's a story that feels like it's going out of its way to not have anyone talk to each other in order to needlessly prolong an uncomfortable story. The premise could've worked, but the execution here was unpleasant and vaguely illogical. Maybe I'll like it better once I see the finale, though. Thanks for the differing viewpoint, though! Always interesting to hear when folks disagree with me.
__________________
Currently working on: Go-Busters is next! Archive of previous shows on KamenRiderDie.com! |
04-09-2021, 08:46 PM | #693 |
The Immortal King Tasty
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Every diner you've ever been to.
Posts: 3,833
|
Quote:
If I might throw your own words right back at you, I hope I don't come off like I'm saying you're dense or stubborn for not being super on-board with all of this. Again, that fog bank thing you said summed it up *perfectly* – there's a flavor to some of Den-O's storytelling that is evidently more up my alley than yours, and, you know, that's fine! Quote:
It's a story that feels like it's going out of its way to not have anyone talk to each other in order to needlessly prolong an uncomfortable story.
__________________
|
04-09-2021, 09:04 PM | #694 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
|
Quote:
To be fair to you, I do think Den-O deliberately writes its big mystery plot so as to obfuscate the details, even during the bits where it seems like it's finally trying to fill you in (recall also how the movie tie-in stuff happened, for a similar thing you've already seen the endpoint of), so I can also see where you might have trouble picking out particular bits of information. It's very much a show that likes to play its cards close to its chest.
Quote:
One of the things that made Inoue great at these types of stories (...damn it) was that his characters were mostly designed to support them. Agito is a show suffused with mistrust, as humanity and mutants struggle to find an uneasy peace. Faiz is a show suffused with mistrust, as humanity and Orphnochs struggle to retain their cultures while expanding them with new viewpoints. They're shows about the impossibility of communication and acceptance, and how those impossibilities make them all the more necessary. There's a natural tendency for characters in these shows to be guarded about their interests and skeptical of sharing with others. Miscommunication and half-truths are baked into them on a premise-level. (Also, they're virtually all terrible people, give or take a Shouichi or Keitaro.) With this Den-O story, Ryotaro isn't built to be this closed-off and confrontational. It's like he got replaced by Yuuto, who is a way more natural way of telling this sort of story. (It is about half of the Zeronos stories this show has done!) Pushing Ryotaro into Uncommunicative and Aggrieved territory strikes me as discordant; ill-fitting. Perfect story for a Takumi or a Gills, not great for a Den-O.
__________________
Currently working on: Go-Busters is next! Archive of previous shows on KamenRiderDie.com! |
04-09-2021, 09:35 PM | #695 |
The Immortal King Tasty
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Every diner you've ever been to.
Posts: 3,833
|
You don't need to tell me that; we've been in Agree To Agree territory with Faiz for a while now!
__________________
|
04-10-2021, 01:38 PM | #696 |
I have a problematic type
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,433
|
Okay, so I'm starting to remember my big issue with Den-O's endgame: a lot of it centers around stuff that makes very little sense. I used to blame Kai for this, but I think it's fairer to blame the writing because I feel like the concepts are definitely there, but they just are not being explained well. This episode was a great example of that, as we're getting a lot of discussion around who and/or what the Junction Point is and, well... this is my third time through the show and I still don't understand exactly what the hell a "Junction Point" is and how it's supposed to work.
Like, I get the idea that the Imagin are trying to adjust the flow of time for their benefit, but the mechanics behind it are really vague. I'm starting to think that it's not a case of the show trusting us to figure it out and more of the show throwing jargon at us and hoping that we'll assume it means something. It makes me think of that old South Park episode with the underpants gnomes, only it reads more like: Step 1: Find Sakurai in the past. Step 2: Reverse the polarity of the neutron flow to charge the deflector dish with tachyon particles and divert the midichlorians through the Junction Point. Step 3: Who run the world? Imagin. |
04-10-2021, 01:47 PM | #697 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
|
Quote:
Okay, so I'm starting to remember my big issue with Den-O's endgame: a lot of it centers around stuff that makes very little sense. I used to blame Kai for this, but I think it's fairer to blame the writing because I feel like the concepts are definitely there, but they just are not being explained well. This episode was a great example of that, as we're getting a lot of discussion around who and/or what the Junction Point is and, well... this is my third time through the show and I still don't understand exactly what the hell a "Junction Point" is and how it's supposed to work.
Like, I get the idea that the Imagin are trying to adjust the flow of time for their benefit, but the mechanics behind it are really vague. I'm starting to think that it's not a case of the show trusting us to figure it out and more of the show throwing jargon at us and hoping that we'll assume it means something. It makes me think of that old South Park episode with the underpants gnomes, only it reads more like: Step 1: Find Sakurai in the past. Step 2: Reverse the polarity of the neutron flow to charge the deflector dish with tachyon particles and divert the midichlorians through the Junction Point. Step 3: Who run the world? Imagin. Like, the Kai scene (that is, again, disappointingly dull compared to how electric his scenes usually are) has him explaining that the Imagin are trying to build themselves a past, in order to ensure their future exists. That's a fun idea, and a nicely villainous twist on Memories Have Power. But the specifics of how that happens, and why Sakurai (or "Sakurai") is important to that, those fairly large pieces of the narrative are either left up to the audience or conveyed in the most elliptical way possible. It's an unbelievably crucial part of the entire series narrative, and I'm mostly just hoping there are a few funny lines and/or a clever moral to make me feel engaged.
__________________
Currently working on: Go-Busters is next! Archive of previous shows on KamenRiderDie.com! |
04-10-2021, 03:22 PM | #698 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
|
KAMEN RIDER DEN-O EPISODE 44 - "RESOLUTION OF A SINGLE-ACTION”
Man, this episode. It's almost a complete 180 from last time. There's a sincerity to this episode that I think the last one obscured with Time Nonsense and miscommunication. The fact that this episode kicks off with Momo and Ryotaro getting into a shouting match about Momo's secrecy and Ryotaro's martyrdom is extraordinarily refreshing, a total palette-cleanser from the previous chapter. Like, last episode left a cloud of frustration and resentment hanging over everything, but this episode quickly grounds its emotional stakes: Ryotaro can't stand by and let people sacrifice themselves, let alone be complicit in the act. It's frustrating to him to have to explain all this to Momo. The fact that Momo still sees this all as just some chance to knock around heads, and to see Momo treat his own life so casually, it's disgusting to Ryotaro. The thing is, that's not even close to what Momo's talking about. My absolute favorite choice this episode made is to have Ryotaro be completely in the wrong. This story ends up being a sequel to the Return Of Zeronos story, where Ryotaro is fine with his own self-sacrifice, but he refuses to let others make that same decision. It's his heroism turning him into a martyr, where he can't allow people their own chances for heroism. Back in that Zeronos story, Ryotaro needed to trust in Yuuto enough to know that he was fighting as Zeronos with his eyes open, and doing it for the right reasons. It's the same thing he needs to understand about Momo in this story. One of Ryotaro's biggest flaws as a hero is that he's oftentimes unable to see the heroes inside other people. His need to protect others makes him see them as fragile, keeps him from letting them protect themselves. He cares so much about his friends that that feeling is amplified, where he'll make terrible, selfish choices to keep them from danger. It's the sort of well-established character trait that really pulls this episode together and keeps it from feeling as cruel and adversarial as last time. But it's Momo's side of things that makes this episode more than just a Ryotaro Needs To Learn To Let Go retread. We've seen Momo as a good friend to Ryotaro, as a concerned boss to the other Imagin, and as an unstoppable fighter. What we've maybe never seen him be is a hero. The entire fight scene between Ryotaro and Momotaros was absolutely epic. It's pure emotion conveyed through an action sequence. Both characters are trying to explain how resolute they are in their decision-making. Momo is going to fight the Imagin, and Ryotaro will never allow it. It's a total stalemate, with Momo kicking the crap out of Ryotaro for about seven straight hours (I did not check the clock, bit of a ballpark) and Ryotaro refusing to accept defeat. They are both pushing each other as hard as they can, and neither one is willing to give an inch. So they just stop pushing. Ryotaro breaks down. He tells Momo that he can't stop fighting to destroy the Imagin's timeline, which would destroy his friends on the DenLiner, but he also can't let them be a part of that. What Ryotaro's doing is tragic, and it'd become impossibly tragic if had to use his friends in their own destruction. He feels guilty and responsible and it's crippling him. He sees his friends as something to protect, and he's letting them down, no matter what he chooses. But his friends aren't just something to protect. They're people(-ish), and they're becoming heroes of their own. Momo tells Ryotaro that he's not just mad that Ryotaro won't let him fight; he's mad because Ryotaro won't give him the chance to protect people. Ryotaro has changed the Imagin, acting as a beacon to lead them into the light. He's taken imagination monsters from the end of time and, through friendship, made them want to be heroes. Momo's mad, just like Yuuto was, at the hypocrisy of Ryotaro to deny them the chance to help people. It leads to an incredibly sweet ending fight that works on a couple levels. On an emotional one, it's this intensely cathartic battle with every single Form getting some licks in on the Armadillo Imagin, every DenLiner Imagin feeling seen by Ryotaro. On a tokusatsu level, it's a great late-stage showcase for how good these suits are. We're nearing the end of the show, which usually means signs and warnings that Your Form Must Be This Powerful To Ride. So a final fight scene for all these early suits is really nice to get. (Ghost did a quick story for all of its abandoned early-days Forms near the end of its run, which I hope I enjoyed as much as I did this one. I don't remember!) Overall, this was everything I thought the last episode was lacking. It drilled the story into being a fight between Momo and Ryotaro. It made Ryotaro's argument simultaneously relatable and irrational. It let Ryotaro be wrong. And it grew Momo's character in a surprising, organic way. I liked this one. THE BAGGAGE CAR -Of all the weirdo sets this episode used to show off the Time Station's flexibility, I loved that the big Momo/Ryotaro fight happens in Smart Brain's hallway. A Faiz reference? That... might be why that scene worked extra good on me. -The Deneb/Yuuto runner with Deneb geeking out for Station Master merch was a hilarious non-sequitur. Yuuto is right to not want to interfere in Momo and Ryotaro's argument, but it leaves him and Deneb with no real reason to be around for this episode. Not a complaint, since letting them just be weird is never a problem, but worth pointing out. -Any episode where Airi gets to lay down some advice over a melancholy montage is probably going to be a good one, no matter what else occurs. It's a well the show thankfully doesn't go back to too often, so it never gets to be cliched or predictable.
__________________
Currently working on: Go-Busters is next! Archive of previous shows on KamenRiderDie.com! Last edited by Kamen Rider Die; 09-18-2023 at 09:46 PM.. |
04-10-2021, 04:40 PM | #699 |
Warrior of Delusions!
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Wait, you dont know either?
Posts: 5,827
|
It's so nice to see the Momo and Ryotaro stuff get back on track. Den-O is at its best when it forgets about the big time shenigins, and its best when it remembers the characters at the centre of this. Ryotaro, the Imagin, Yuuto, they're still popular characters today for a reason.
__________________
Check out my occasional ramblings! https://akibamusings.blogspot.com/
|
04-10-2021, 05:23 PM | #700 |
The Immortal King Tasty
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Every diner you've ever been to.
Posts: 3,833
|
...Pretty much! It probably goes without saying that this is one of my favorites of the whole show, but even beyond that, it's possibly the Den-O episode I think about whenever I think about Den-O. By the time I rewatched it, enough of the show had slipped my mind that I no longer remembered exactly what Momotaros and Ryoutarou talked about here, or why, but in all that intervening time, I could always still vividly recall this image, and the feeling that went along with it:
It's a scene that left quite an impression. All the other amazing things in the episode that I rediscovered watching it again – like Momo saying "our special attack" – were pretty much gravy at that point. Den-O is a show that's rightfully known primarily for being hilarious, but that always takes a back seat in my mind to just how fantastically endearing the character work can be, and episodes like this are why.
__________________
|
|
TokuNation News & Rumors |
Ultraman X Avengers |
Memorial Edition GoPhone Announced |
Kakuranger: 30 Years After |
ToyRise RyuKenDo |
Alternative Cut of "Day Of The Dumpster" Released |
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:29 PM.
|