[Frontier]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

It makes sense if authors don`t want to introduce new characters, even off-screen ones. But the idea that Zero dedicated his son's entire life to becoming the perfect weapon against Nightmares, doesn't speak well of him. Frankly, even last year's rider had a kinder family in comparison.

I guess it speaks to how seriously the Nightmare threat must look to Zero that he felt they needed whatever Zeztz is, even if it meant sacrificing his own son.

[DreamSword]

Baku deducing that Zero is his dad just kinda feels like a leap to me. Maybe I'm way too dense to understand the subtleties, but "by god, he let me ride a motorcycle as kid, ergo he must be my father!" I just like, don't get it?

I also don't get the angle that Zero's' dream has been some big secret for way longer than just like, the scene where it first comes up. Halfway through the episode. Or atleast, the way Baku talks about it, it seems to be framed as such.

I just really couldn't get into this one. Neither the Baku nor the Nem stuff.

[Frontier]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamSword

Baku deducing that Zero is his dad just kinda feels like a leap to me. Maybe I'm way too dense to understand the subtleties, but "by god, he let me ride a motorcycle as kid, ergo he must be my father!" I just like, don't get it?

I also don't get the angle that Zero's' dream has been some big secret for way longer than just like, the scene where it first comes up. Halfway through the episode. Or atleast, the way Baku talks about it, it seems to be framed as such.

I just really couldn't get into this one. Neither the Baku nor the Nem stuff.

I think when you see how Zero was looking at Baku and how paternalistic it is, how "you've really grown" sounds like something a parent would say to their child (or at least family would), it makes sense Baku would figure it out.

[Locke]

Okay, the detail of him hearing the voice, but not understanding the words at the graveyard and then hearing it again in the dream and now understanding what he was saying is the kind of attention to detail that gets a pop out of me.

They even took something that could feel kinda lazy from a production standpoint in introducing a nightmare Zeztz that is just the base form in greyscale, but then they gave it genuine thematic purpose for looking as it did and it worked great (which is funny, cause in that same episode they have that zoom in on Orderm and it looks like that suit is falling apart already, they better get the sewing kit out if they want that to last 20 more episodes!).

Overall yeah, solid episode, barrelling towards a pretty obvious twist sure, but the episode did some pretty heavy lifting in setting up narrative threads to be followed in future episodes, as it did feel like it was running out of steam a little after the initial bump of adrenaline introduced by Sieg.

[Fish Sandwich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JusticeMagnum

I also like Zero's actors performance here as well where you can see some hesitation when he tries to put his hand on Baku's shoulder. I feel like he's really torn between his duty/mission for CODE and his affection for Baku.

There's a lot of emphasis on his hands in general? I remember the first time he mentioned Code Somnia in 25 there was this suspiciously emphasized shot of him reaching into his pocket, a lot like one of the shots in this episode. It also seems meaningful he wasn't wearing the gloves in that first scene here? Beyond that though, he's great with his face in this one for sure. A lot of the big reveal here is way more about expressions than dialogue, and I thought he made all that come across really well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

"By preventing Baku from helping people in real life, didn't Nightmare push him to become Zeztz and, thus, to fulfill Zero's dream? After all, Baku himself mentioned this several times at the beginning of the show. So Nightmare is contradicting his own purpose!"

The episode leads you through dialogue to believe Zero's bad dream is ZEZTZ failing to be completed, but I think the secret to one of those "things not being said out loud yet" I mentioned is in the visuals here -- "Why is it ZEZTZ that's harming Baku?" is probably a question worth considering further, given how the motifs for most Nightmares have worked so far.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldenXtreme

More drama for drama's sake...

That is generally how dramas work, yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldenXtreme

How has Zero been subconsciously having the same Nightmare torment Baku for years, aren't they supposed to eventually open all of the mind's doors and materialize in the real world?

I'd say this is probably one of the last things worth questioning here? The show has made it clear the exact number of doors varies, and has never established any specific limit. Even assuming the ZEZTZ Nightmare does work like any typical monster of the week so far, I think the fact we're dealing with Zero in of itself already suggests several explanations for why the monster's job wouldn't be as easy as usual.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

Frankly, even last year's rider had a kinder family in comparison.

If we're taking the whole family into account, that's quite the stretch!

...If we're specifically talking dads, though, admittedly, there might be some strong similarities there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamSword

Maybe I'm way too dense to understand the subtleties, but "by god, he let me ride a motorcycle as kid, ergo he must be my father!" I just like, don't get it?

The whole reveal is basically nothing but the subtleties, so as much I like it when ZEZTZ gets weirdly high-brow like this, I think it's fair enough to find it confusing. The situation is that Zero let him ride a bike, but the actual importance is in all the little stuff that Baku takes note of, including stuff that even kid Baku clearly feels is off, like how Zero isn't looking at him the way a stranger would. Appropriately for the themes of the show, a lot of it is about unconscious feelings, much like how Nem instinctively called The Lady "Mom" the first time she saw her. Baku kinda already knows the truth somewhere deep in his mind, and as the hints keep piling on, the thought eventually becomes too loud to ignore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamSword

I also don't get the angle that Zero's' dream has been some big secret for way longer than just like, the scene where it first comes up. Halfway through the episode. Or atleast, the way Baku talks about it, it seems to be framed as such.

Does it? My reading of that whole bit is that the generic classy agent setting the dream is initially in is something Zero was actively creating through his own lucid dreaming abilities, to mask what's actually in his subconscious mind, up until Catastrom destroys that "layer" of the dream, basically. Again, the very fact that Zero dreams about what precious little quality time he's been able to spend with his son is one of those hints Baku catches on to, more so than what specifically that time was spent doing.

[Mesnick]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

The episode leads you through dialogue to believe Zero's bad dream is ZEZTZ failing to be completed, but I think the secret to one of those "things not being said out loud yet" I mentioned is in the visuals here -- "Why is it ZEZTZ that's harming Baku?" is probably a question worth considering further, given how the motifs for most Nightmares have worked so far.

Well, if Zero's true nightmare is that Zeztz will destroy Baku, then the outcome is hopeless. Either Zero has long been under the Nightmare's control, since he's putting his son in harm's way. Or it's a hardening method, like "Throw him off a bridge to teach him how to swim." The second possibility allows for a parallel with the acquisition of Inazuma. But then it's unclear why he'd hide the truth from Baku? Since he was chosen from childhood, and even the love for agents was ingrained in him by Zero, why not be completely frank with him? Any morality and values ​​can be instilled in a child.

[DreamSword]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frontier

I think when you see how Zero was looking at Baku and how paternalistic it is, how "you've really grown" sounds like something a parent would say to their child (or at least family would), it makes sense Baku would figure it out.

I guess? Speaking from personal experience, that specific phrase is more likely to come from extended family, or friends of family, rather than parents. Maybe that's just me though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

Does it? My reading of that whole bit is that the generic classy agent setting the dream is initially in is something Zero was actively creating through his own lucid dreaming abilities, to mask what's actually in his subconscious mind, up until Catastrom destroys that "layer" of the dream, basically. Again, the very fact that Zero dreams about what precious little quality time he's been able to spend with his son is one of those hints Baku catches on to, more so than what specifically that time was spent doing.

It's certainly how it came off to me, especially with how Baku asks Zero why "he kept this dream a secret." And my immediate thought was "Was it ever even thought about up to now?" And correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it ever was?