[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switchblade

So here we are at last, the end of Kamen Rider Fourze. Yes, there's the Ex-Aid/Build movie, but that's more of a cameo and it's just Gentarou and JK; this is the last time we'll ever see most of these characters and the last time that Gentarou is the main focus of a story (poor guy doesn't even get his own Zi-O arc; he has to share it with Faiz). As far as grand finales go it's both good and a little disappointing.

There's a bit near the end from I can't remember who -- Kengo, or Miu, or Yuuki -- where they say that, like the Fourze Driver, they'll always be there when Gentarou needs them... and then we never saw any of them but JK and Ohsugi and the new kids ever again. It's a line that's supposed to be heartwarming at the time, but now it's a little heartbreaking; this promise of eternal friendship and then some of them got too famous to ever come back and we're still a few years out from endless V-Cins and TTFC specials and so that's it for the entire concept. If any show could've justified a full-fledged anniversary reunion special, it'd be the one set entirely at a high school, but again: some folks just got too famous (-slash- expensive) to do a Toei Kamen Rider film, so here we are.

[Androzani84]

All I remember about this is that the original pitch had Wizard getting pregnant and the assembled Riders playing baseball.

In all honesty, I wasn’t really a fan of new Inazuman, since he seemed a bit too unlikeable. And then I saw that the actor was in two Sentai shows Tsukada worked on, and I wasn’t keen on his roles in either show (to the point he isn’t getting the main feature, that’s how much I dislike the actor). That said, I did like him more in Taisen Z, mostly because they just wrote him as the original Inazuman, but he calls Fourze “Sensei”.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Androzani84

In all honesty, I wasn?t really a fan of new Inazuman, since he seemed a bit too unlikeable. And then I saw that the actor was in two Sentai shows Tsukada worked on, and I wasn?t keen on his roles in either show (to the point he isn?t getting the main feature, that?s how much I dislike the actor). That said, I did like him more in Taisen Z, mostly because they just wrote him as the original Inazuman, but he calls Fourze ?Sensei?.

Yeah, he's a repellant little creep for most of this movie. The movie's trying to do that Kamen Rider thing of showing the heroism of the Rider by saying that a villain maybe needs the most love and support to feel safe enough to change their ways, compared to a victim who might just need to be rescued, and it's always a tougher sell for me than I'd like it to be. I want to be on Fourze's side, and say that bullies are just sad inside, and maybe you need to tell them that they're loved, and that'll give them the emotional safety to realize the error of their ways!

But I'm watching this movie, and there's a scene where Miyoppe calls him a monster, and Saburou's like SEE SHE THINKS I'M A MONSTER, and we're maybe supposed to take it as her judging his slimy carapace, but all I was thinking was about how he's loudly and repeatedly said he's going to blow up Yuuki's reentry capsule, partially to hurt Miyoppe emotionally, and I think it's sort of fair for Miyoppe to not feel like extending a ton of apologetic kindness to this kid right this second? I think it's okay for a sneering, homicidal creep to not be treated as the victim.

(My ideal for redemption stories is Gavv: You give a villain -- deranged or misguided or committed, whichever -- a chance to stop what they're doing, and reform their lives right now. If they take that chance to change, the fight's over and they can get the help they need. They keep fighting, then that's tragic, but they didn't take the next best step to get better, so this is the consequence of that.)

[Kamen Rider Die]

THREAD WRAP-UP



And that’s it for “Kamen Rider Die rewatches Kamen Rider Fourze”!

It’s like Tomoko says up there: it was really nice to spend a few months with the characters in Fourze. It’s a fun show, which is literally the first way I described it back in January when this thread started, and it’s still the best way to describe it dozens and dozens of posts later. There’s a youthful energy to this show and its cast that’s unmatched across 55 years (and counting) of the Kamen Rider franchise, and it made me feel young again to watch it.

It was also very fun to rewatch it here on the boards, alongside all of you. Fourze’s a show about friendship and support, and I will always appreciate the folks who took a moment or two over the last four months to share their thoughts on the show, or say some kind words about a post, or just goof around about things. I genuinely consider you all friends, and I like getting to hang out with you on the boards a few times each year.

Along those lines, this is going to be it for me for a little while until the next thread. This thread is yours to enjoy, so feel to continue chatting about the kids of Amanogawa High for as long as you’d like. I’ll be back in the late-summer/early-fall (August? September?) with my Magical Girl thread, “Kamen Rider Die watches Pretty Guardian Sailor Moon”!

(And… yes, I know that DreamSword has been watching this and writing about it for a few months. You should definitely go read that now, because it’s bound to be more thoughtful and distinctive than what I’m going to come up with. I hate for it to look like I’m stepping on any toes, but I planned in 2023 to be watching this show after Fourze, and I’m still really looking forward to it. I don’t know anything about the Sailor Moon franchise, and the Kobayashi of it all has me really intrigued. I’m sorry it’s coming so hot on the heels of DreamSword’s take, but rest assured that mine will be a pale imitation at best. Also, probably the exact opposite of DreamSword’s opinions!)

Thanks again to everyone who stopped by to chat about Fourze! Miu says it best, like she says everything the best:

[Fish Sandwich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

(And… yes, I know that DreamSword has been watching this and writing about it for a few months. You should definitely go read that now, because it’s bound to be more thoughtful and distinctive than what I’m going to come up with. I hate for it to look like I’m stepping on any toes, but I planned in 2023 to be watching this show after Fourze, and I’m still really looking forward to it. I don’t know anything about the Sailor Moon franchise, and the Kobayashi of it all has me really intrigued. I’m sorry it’s coming so hot on the heels of DreamSword’s take, but rest assured that mine will be a pale imitation at best. Also, probably the exact opposite of DreamSword’s opinions!)

I'll go ahead and apologize ahead of time for making you write a nearly identical disclaimer when you get to the end of that thread.

I'll also apologize now for not being in that thread, since -- like 99% of anime DreamSword watches -- it's a show I'm not familiar enough with to contribute much to the discussion.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

I'll go ahead and apologize ahead of time for making you write a nearly identical disclaimer when you get to the end of that thread.

I'm planning a slightly different disclaimer for the end of that thread -- namely that I would not expect Wizard fans to look to me as their hope for a warm reflection on that series, and that your thread is both better and kinder to the material.

(I don't want to jump too far ahead, but, I hope I'm wrong about that? Wizard's always been a show in my head where I remember the things I didn't like about it more than the things I did like, which is both not how I usually leave shows, and also a total bummer. I'd like to find more to love about it this time!)

[DreamSword]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

I genuinely consider you all friends

gross

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And? yes, I know that DreamSword has been watching this and writing about it for a few months. You should definitely go read that now

super gross

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

I'll also apologize now for not being in that thread, since -- like 99% of anime DreamSword watches -- it's a show I'm not familiar enough with to contribute much to the discussion.

I have to let the people know about the lesser known wonders of the world!

Uh, I mean, yeah, that guy only watches shows that are clearly fake. Like, who's even heard of half the stuff he talks about? Jeez.

[Switchblade]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

(I don't want to jump too far ahead, but, I hope I'm wrong about that? Wizard's always been a show in my head where I remember the things I didn't like about it more than the things I did like, which is both not how I usually leave shows, and also a total bummer. I'd like to find more to love about it this time!)

Very much where I'm at on it. I remember liking Haruto a lot and that it had really good action scenes and music. Beyond that it's just a lot of frustration with some of the supporting characters and that one episode with the parrot that everybody really hated back when it first aired.

[Androzani84]

Well I didn’t comment much on the other guy’s PGSM watch, since I was going through my own at the time, and it got slightly delayed by issues with the site I was downloading from. Now that I’ve gone through a rewatch, I’ll probably have more to say.

[DreadBringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

KAMEN RIDER X KAMEN RIDER WIZARD & FOURZE: MOVIE WAR ULTIMATUM (DIRECTOR’S CUT)

They’re both broadly about getting out of the way for the next generation. It’s a theme that fits Fourze a little better, which is why the Fourze section is a little more thematically-grounded. The Kaijin Alliance are a group of kids who are horrified by what the previous generation has left for them, and pessimistic on their own chances for happiness. Gentarou’s story is centered on his need to step back and let that next generation see that they’re in control of their own destinies, rather than operating at the whims of manipulative scientists or over-protective teachers. The only way the next generation can become the best versions of themselves is when they feel like their future is truly in their hands.

This seems to be also something that happens to characters who end up becoming a god, such as Kouta or Ace, to let the rest of humans decide for themselves rather than keep interfering. Gentaro proves his point by destroying his Fourze Driver, but dunno if this isn't the same, but people can complain about how someone doing this means indirectly being apathetic and throwing away power's responsibility by becoming a bystander to others' problems when their powers can solve them, and thus they're responsible for any of the disaster that happens to them, like if they fail and die due to not interfering with their power, thus by this, those who become god are seen as irresponsible for not using their power to solve all problems, of which they perfectly can, and not doing that means letting people be victims of others' crimes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

The Fourze section has the roughest patch in it, where, again, I appreciate what it’s trying to say. Saburou is a villain who’s just lashing out from loneliness, and he needs someone his own age to tell him he’s worth befriending. It’s just, it’s a resolution that’s asking everyone around Saburou to bend over backwards to make him feel better, when he barely does anything to warrant it. It needs Miyoppe – who is victimized by Saburou – to ask for Saburou’s forgiveness for… I’m not even sure what? It’s Saburou who’s constantly harassing and endangering her, while she’s solely focused on her own goals and activities. It’s like she’s being penalized for not thinking enough about how the surly asshole in her class is feeling, selfishly focusing on her own happiness, and it’s gross? It’s a little gross, the way she’s made to bear responsibility for her bully. It’s preaching a moral that wants to say Sometimes Mean People Just Need Compassion, but it definitely comes off as Maybe You Had It Coming. Not a fan of that!

This seems to commonly happen more in online discourses, regarding "we live in society" kind of villains where they have tragic backstory or traumatic events that made them evil. Often that, like Saburo, the one seen at fault are the other people who failed them, like if they've been abused, screwed over, or neglected and left out, so they're so bitter by that mistreatment, and lash out to the society. Saburo is something like that where people, including Miyoppe (about calling him a monster when talking about Yuki's situation), previously demonized him as a monster due to his powers (not due to his actions), thus he ends up becoming one due to what people perceive him as, when a villain is created, so it's everyone's fault he ends up becoming like that, thus what others need to do is to view him as another human rather than ostracizing him. I don't agree either with those kind of people for blaming everyone else but the tragic villain, and yeah there are many people who complain if the heroes are just beating up those "victims of circumstances" to stop them from harming others, rather than giving the Saburo treatment to them that it's the other people that needs to change to meet the villain's standards.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

The other big thing that people are probably going to kick about from the Fourze part of this movie is Gentarou throwing away his Fourze Driver, and I’m of two minds on it. On the one hand, it’s completely the sort of Big Dumb Gesture that Gentarou would make. He’s someone who is very focused on the current interaction, and he’ll gladly toss away everything Fourze accomplished if it means getting through to one struggling teenager. On the other hand, the plot immediately shows what a short-sighted maneuver this is, since Gentarou needs to borrow a Fourze Driver if he’s going to save the world. There’s some obvious calculus here, about the needs of the many versus the needs of the one, and I get why Gentarou throwing away an apocalypse-averting piece of gear would bother folks. I think it works for the character, but I wish it was being done for a kid who maybe deserved it more? Gentarou’s throwing away a hero that saved millions of lives for a grumpy bully who’s making himself the victim. I don’t love that trade?

Despite what I said above, how'd one decide if someone deserves the help or not? Like, it seems that for something like Zodiarts such as Motoyama, it's seen as deserving for Gentaro to reach out, but not for this one, who can be similar in manners of his crimes. If Gentaro has to only help the people who deserve it, then he shouldn't be someone who tries to befriend everyone (or even, performing a teacher's job to just kick out and abandon any problematic students), as yeah, this mindset is common in daily lives, where for self-preservance, one gotta be selective in who to befriend or help and cut off anything troublesome, which means performing positive discrimination only to select few.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Those disappointments aside, I think the movie works okay. It’s a Sakamoto joint, so the action is top-notch. (Folks complained about his male-gaze-y direction before, but this was the movie where I found it too distracting. Every girl in a skirt needed a close-up and slow-mo shot of her twirling skirt! There were a bunch of Nadeshiko butt bumps! Inga Blink was perpetually glistening!) Every Heisei Phase 2 Rider makes a return appearance, even if it’s just the main hero suit and zero dialogue. Eiji’s here, because Eiji’s cool. We get modern-day refreshes on classic Ishinomori characters. There’s a massive Mad Max-esque vehicle fight that lasts about as long as a Mad Max movie. It’s a gigantic action film with a ton of cool-looking characters, whatever its other failings.

Yeah again, the action is more top-notch for Fourze's movies compared to the main series. Though Fourze's strongest form yet, Nadeshiko Fusion States, are just limited in skating and firing rockets unlike Cosmic or Fusion States before. Also, where Gentaro beats up the final boss untransformed while he clearly lost to Utsugi, here Utsugi can't really harm one of the psychic students, the fat one, dunno if it's due to his powers or just his physique. Butt bump is after all, an attack too, so Nadeshiko doing it is just normal as her kicking. Miu didn't perform any physical attacks here, just shooting, unlike in Fourze movie. Of which Kengo did, wonder if at this point, Kengo can use Power Dizer without problem unlike before when he was "sickly" due to his nature as a Presenters sample.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

NOT QUITE FIVE YEARS LATER

-I guess that’s one of the things that was nice about watching this movie again, after also watching the series, because it feels like a real epilogue to the final episode, more than anything with newly-revealed foes or snazzy kit-bashed suits or catching up with space girlfriends. It’s Gentarou trying to learn from Gamou specifically, and create room for the next generation to work their stuff out with safety and support. (Also, man, after Gamou’s scheme, Gentarou should have zero tolerance for Bamba’s plan of manipulating emotionally-unstable teenagers to power-up a strange device!) It’s a story that’s really just about Gentarou learning to turn his teenage enthusiasm into adult guidance, and be the kind of comforting and heroic presence that Gamou could’ve been, if only someone had shown him the way in time. That’s sweet.

Maybe specifically that, Gentaro learns from Gamou in becoming a teacher to work the next generation's stuff out. Gentaro should already be virtuous in doing what he did like the students here in any field. Being heroic isn't only limited in choosing a servicesperson job like teacher or cop; the other KRC members choose a 'selfish' job like model, athlete, or writer. What decides heroism or not is, what one'd do at their own will, rather than just an obligation of a job; there can be good deeds that said job won't ever touch or do, dunno if this is a part of what Satake and Kengo said of becoming a real teacher or that there are things friendship can't fix. Gentaro is seen as an idealized type of protagonist, but regarding him as a teacher, there are stuff he learns, where the novel focuses on Gentaro's decision on becoming a teacher (spurred by his encounter with his future self, actually, stable time-loop) and whether or not he truly wants to commit to it.