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09-15-2016, 06:26 PM | #51 |
The Immortal King Tasty
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It pays for it because Takeru did exactly the thing Makoto wanted when he could've just as easily saved himself. This wasn't some minor thing either. He basically gave up his own life so Kanon could have hers back. I don't see how it only being "once" is relevant. Kanon being stuck as an Eyecon was the crux of his anger in the first place too so it makes sense he'd chill out after that stops being an issue.
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09-15-2016, 06:29 PM | #52 |
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You mean the thing with possessing Alain? Because I don't feel it's fair to complain the characters don't feel like people and then reject the show for having them act like people. The show made it a point as early as episode 3 that Onari hates feeling useless. It's not as simple as him just wanting attention. He thought he would be the big hero and finally help out and it's a humbling moment for him when he realizes he's in over his head.
And then when all is said and done, Akari throws out some half-assed line about how Takeru "needs him" even though he continues to do nothing of importance throughout the rest of the show. It's fine for a character to feel useless, but unlike Akari, who gets visibly frustrated and desperately seeks out solutions to problems when she feels useless, Onari just continues to chew up the scenery and generally annoy everybody. Quote:
What's wrong with Makoto's character centering on others, for that matter? I'm sure he'd have plenty of dreams if he weren't so busy fighting Gamma. He's someone who REALLY values his friends and goes to great lengths to protect them. He's not as fleshed-out as Takeru or Alain but he HAS a personality.
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09-15-2016, 06:37 PM | #53 |
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But it would be exaggerated because he's talking TO Takeru in the scene in question. It'd make sense he'd word it in the worst way possible to really get across how pissed he is at him. It's not like he went around saying that to everyone. And it's not even that inconsistent because...
I'm not buying this whole "He only phrased it that way to emphasize how pissed he is at Takeru" thing because surely some part of it MUST have been how he described it, otherwise it makes him look borderline emotionally manipulative, exaggerating his feelings to make someone else feel like shit. And somehow, I don't think that's what the writers intended.
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09-15-2016, 06:54 PM | #54 |
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The problem is Makoto does not stand out as a character in the slightest. He's basically just another person there to fawn over Takeru. It would have been interesting if they maybe kept the self-guilt part of his character as a recurring thing throughout the show, but it's only ever mentioned like twice.
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09-15-2016, 07:06 PM | #55 |
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Trust me, he was kind of a drama queen in those episodes. Takeru and Kanon even mention how it feels like he's "forcing himself" to act how he does. He's really not himself when we first meet him. Right, and I'm sorry if I didn't word that clearly enough. He's exaggerating, but only so much. This is why I mentioned how much being in the Ganma world DID suck for him. It's absolutely not "completely inconsistent" that he would describe it as hell.
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09-16-2016, 01:00 AM | #56 |
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Complaining about him being selfish is exactly what I meant by complaining about him acting like a person, and I just explained there's more to it that just (I can only be so delusional, that IS clearly a big part of it) "oh look, Onari's doing something wacky again."
And there's other ways to get across Onari's feelings of inadequacy without having him act like a prick. Akari went through pretty much the same sort of feelings without being a detriment to the group. So did Mach in Drive, and even Alain for a brief period of time. Quote:
Her followup to that being because "we're a team". She's not telling him he's super useful (because he isn't), she's saying they care about him regardless.
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They don't need to mention it because it drives most of his actions anyway. That guilt is exactly why he's such a generic sidekick character in the first place. Makoto has played far too big a role in the plot to be considered just another person fawning over Takeru. He's THE person fawning over Takeru. And Alain, for that matter.
Really now, it sounds like you're making excuses for why things are bad in this show. Him being a generic sidekick character because of his guilt doesn't make him any more interesting of a character and that's precisely what the problem is. Quote:
Trust me, he was kind of a drama queen in those episodes. Takeru and Kanon even mention how it feels like he's "forcing himself" to act how he does. He's really not himself when we first meet him.
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09-16-2016, 05:41 AM | #57 |
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But it still doesn't address why Takeru & the others just didn't do anything for the past 10 years in order to save him and Kanon. In fact, I don't think Takeru has ever outright apologized for that! I always was under the impression that that was the stem of Makoto's hatred for Takeru, so Takeru simply saving Kanon in place of himself, while nice & all, shouldn't have resolved that issue so easily. It should've just had Makoto somewhat more open to Takeru, sure, but it shouldn't have been the thing that made him completely buddies with him again all of a sudden.
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09-16-2016, 10:37 AM | #58 |
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But there's still no evidence to support your argument. Nothing in the show suggests that the Ganma World wasn't totally a living Hell from him, other than the fact that we see it later and it's not so bad. Normally, I could accept this as solid evidence, but the show doesn't even acknowledge the huge discrepancy between what Makoto said and what the world is actually like, which leads me to believe that it's a case of writers having the characters say and do things and just totally forgetting about it once the plot goes in a different direction, which seems to be an overall trend for Ghost.
Are you saying nothing in episodes 1-11 suggests the Ganma World wasn't actually hell for him? Because the point I was trying to get at (really poorly) is that Makoto's description is just his perspective. He'd describe it as hell because to him, it was. There's no discrepancy. I wasn't trying to say he was manipulating Takeru or anything. The writers didn't just make up what the Ganma world is like later on. Everything you see in that first arc is consistent with what you see later. Makoto's relationship with Alain, all of Javert's dialogue, Makoto even having a Ghost Driver; Yurusen mentions early on the reason Gramps doesn't show up half the time is because he's "busy", wonder what that could mean? Can I also reiterate this bit? I don't even think Makoto's problem was that they "left him there" but instead that he gets back and nobody seems to remember him and Kanon.
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09-16-2016, 01:46 PM | #59 |
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I loved so much about this episode it was great. First of all I have to mention that Onari, Akari, and Kanon all kicking ass against the grunts was great I'm glad they were able to do that. Also that their training paid off finally. The Dual Spectre's I loved because that the Makoto Replica also connected with Takeru and realized he was basically everything Makoto was and helped Makoto come back. Makoto's sacrifice was great because that just shows how much he has grown and how much he cares about his friends. Takeru is just freaking brilliant from beating the crap out of Adel because he hurt Alain to being able to calm down and save Adel. He finally connected Adel to his family's feelings and was able to save him. Takeru was able to get past his own feelings for his father's killer and save him because he's one of his friend's brother; I think that is just a testament to how strong Takeru has grown. Alain also going from trying to stop Adel no matter the cost to realizing he wanted to save his brother was great too. I even loved Igor's moment of saving Akari that was great as well showing that even he had his own feelings and not wanting to be a slave. I honestly felt really sad with what happened to Adel being taken over by the Ganmaizers and it ended up with him being destroyed because he could have finally had a chance of redemption. The Ganmaizers taking control was intriguing and actually makes it more interesting that they have had there own plans in the works here without Adel. Also, all the Luminaries coming out and beating the Ganmaizers and allowing Takeru to reach Adel was just a badass scene. I can't wait for the next episode that looks like a huge battle.
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09-16-2016, 02:19 PM | #60 |
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The problem with Onari is that he only has one consistent motivation in the series: do stuff that the writers think is funny. Why does he randomly start pretending to talk to the Goemon Eyecon? Because the writers think it's funny. Why does he randomly start drawing on Alain's face when he's asleep? Because of a long-standing rivalry or some kind of resentment? No, because the writers think it's funny. Why did he randomly endanger everything by stealing Alain's body? It wasn't because he was feeling left out, it's because the writers thought it would be funny to see Alain's actor mugging and gurning like Onari. There is no deeper motivation behind anything he does other than to be cheap, brainless comic relief.
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