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04-17-2021, 11:41 AM | #771 |
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To me, it's a little less that I didn't buy they'd kill a popular character, but that the world of the show is set up to undo it. In a show where all of the Imagin have been saved from disappearing before, I'm not that invested in the threat of them disappearing again.
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KAMEN RIDER DEN-O EPISODE 48 - “OPPOSITE GOODBYES…”
Like, this is one where Kai is just massively, apocalyptically sick of trying to puzzle out what the hell is going on with Airi, Sakurai, the Junction Point, etc., and I found that simultaneously hilarious, intensely familiar, and sort of indicative of how this show is such an ill-fit for Cataclysmic Finale. Watching Kai just declare his being So Over this stupid plot, the twists and turns and Time Nonsense of it all, in favor of just obliterating the present and letting the aftermath determine a victor… I loved the catharsis of that. I loved that there was a villain who feels as frustrated as I do, and is ending the show before it can throw one more unexplained/underexplained/undeveloped/underdeveloped plot twist at us. Much like Urataros and Kintaros sacrificing themselves at their best rather than withering away and dying, I like that Kai is sacrificing this show, that has so lost the charm of its past with me, while I’m still able to remember how much I love these characters. Otherwise, I know this is (hopefully) a joke, and otherwise I know that catharsis factor is also a thing to enjoy for watching shows, catharsis factor is a stuff you do to relieve tension or get stuff off your chest. There are good stuff that comes from this phenomenon like in games where constructing stuff via pixel (and it's good helping) can feel satisfying, though I have a fear too about this phenomenon, I fear about the skewed view of morality and due to this, like regarding characters, where interesting people should always get praise and approval, even those morally bankrupt and causes harm to others (perpetuating them), and people who are hated, like because of them being boring/irritating/annoying but doesn't cause any harm/problems deserve torture and suffering and it's a good thing to do (e.g. people who just can type at computer screen?!). And cathartic experience can also backfire, like in online multiplayer games with human opponents, where a catharic feeling from string of victories can be ruined by an upsetting loss from another player at the far end of the skill divide. Or in-universe characters, Kai ending the show "prematurely" would just torture or kill any of the Den-O cast that is loved! Quote:
And I do still love them! Urataros getting one last chance to be a lying scumbag while really just acting as a lying scumbag to trick the villains, that’s a nice send-off for him. It’s a slim-ass story, unfortunately. There is literally zero chance that Urataros is actually abandoning his friends to throw his lot in with Kai. Ryotaro eventually brings this up, sort of, but there’s still a bunch of the early part of the episode that is trying to extract tension and drama out of a pretty unbelievable heel-turn, and that’s a little insulting. Like, there’s a reason why Ura’s turn works on characters like Momo (an idiot) and Ryuta (a child), and maybe even Hana (looking for reasons to distrust Imagin) or Naomi (mostly just confused). But it shouldn’t work on even the youngest viewer, so the episode holding off so long on Ryotaro’s confirmation/cover is a bit of a drag. Still, it’s cute to watch Ura manipulate the Mole Imagin, and him sacrificing himself at the end… I don’t know, it’s a thing the show is just going to keep doing. Not something I’m into, but pointless to complain about. Feels rushed and plot-driven rather than character-driven, whatever.
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Speaking of plot-driven! Airi and Sakurai were secretly protecting their unborn child, and I literally don’t know what I’m supposed to do with that information at the second-to-last episode of the series. They, like, Temporally Aborted it to keep it safe from the Imagin? And Ryotaro’s supposed to Memorially Unabort it at some point after the Imagin are defeated? Am I getting that right?! Typical for Kobayashi, that seems like an enormous piece of context that is coming so far after it’d be useful that all I can do is absorb it, bug my eyes out, and move on. It is so impossibly late in the game for me to see it as anything other than a data point, like Airi is telling Ryotaro that she is hiding a medium-sized chocolate brownie from the Imagin that he’ll be responsible for eating someday. Okay, lady! You got it! Hypothetical Baby! Sure, sounds great.
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Anyway, hi, I’m still not into what this show is trying to do with its finale. It didn’t bum out as much as last night, which I appreciate. I don't need to hide from my feelings about it again, so that's cool. Maybe I’m totally wrong on all this, and it’s great, but I don’t care. I’m watching it, and literally the only part I was able to relate to was Kai just wanting to raze it all to the ground. This show… I’m pretty sure I enjoyed it? In the past? I liked the imagination monsters from the end of time and the little problems they solved for people. I liked the messages about how to manage your emotions, or how to draw strength from bad memories. I liked the quaintness of it all, how much of a fun adventure it was to go on. This isn’t any of that. It’s a series that excelled at being small, choosing to go big at the end out of… obligation, or expectation, or misguided faith in their own production. It’s like attending an intimate dinner party in a ballroom, and I’m just not enjoying it.
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I honestly don't mind? I know it wasn't done maliciously (you were trying to help me understand a very confusing plot), and I probably should've put the pieces together myself. Apology accepted!
EDIT: Oh shit, please don't delete your account! I 1000% do not want that to happen! Oh god! (̶̶̶t̶̶̶h̶̶̶e̶̶̶ ̶̶̶m̶i̶s̶t̶a̶k̶e̶ ̶̶̶i̶̶̶s̶̶̶ ̶̶̶s̶̶̶t̶̶̶i̶̶̶l̶̶̶l̶̶̶ ̶̶̶t̶̶̶h̶̶̶e̶̶̶r̶̶̶e̶̶̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶c̶a̶n̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶u̶n̶d̶o̶n̶e̶)̶̶̶,̶ ̶l̶i̶k̶e̶ ̶K̶a̶i̶ ̶s̶h̶o̶w̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶t̶i̶m̶e̶l̶i̶n̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶w̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶g̶i̶v̶e̶ ̶u̶p̶ ̶Y̶u̶u̶t̶o̶ ̶t̶o̶.̶ Well, ok, I will celebrate it like this. Happy ! Quote:
Hey dude, you don't need to go that far. I also make mistakes, you know? I'm glad you called me out that time, since I felt pretty bad about that for the rest of the day. This kind of thing happens sometimes when people get excited about upcoming plot twists.
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04-17-2021, 12:44 PM | #772 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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KAMEN RIDER DEN-O EPISODE 49 - "THE CLIMAX GOES ON, NO MATTER WHAT”
The last few days, I honestly didn't know if I even liked this show. Was I just talking myself into it? Was I fixating on the few things I liked while trying to diminish the many things I didn't? (ha ha) Did I want to like Den-O more than I actually liked Den-O? And then there's this finale, and I can't stop crying, so I guess I really liked Den-O. The plot machinations, the Time Nonsense, it's whatever. I'll talk more about its strengths and weaknesses tomorrow in the Series Wrap-Up post (which feels like it's going to be massive; lot of topics to cover), but for this episode, it existed mostly to be a thing to defeat. Like most of the junction point stuff, the Hana reveal is one that feels right while falling apart the second you try and explain it. She's the safety net that keeps Kai from winning long enough for the heroes to defeat him. It's difficult to parse and full of underexplained elements (there was a timeline once where Hana was raised by her parents but Sakurai erased her memory of it, I guess?), and it all shows up way later than you'd like, but it's fine. It's just there to allow for a victory condition. It's not the point of any of this. The point is about friendship, and memories, and how even when a TV show ends, it gets to live on forever in our memories. The second half of this episode was probably the absolute best way this show was ever going to end. It's not my favorite series ending or anything (Faiz or Blade, maybe Fourze?), but it's the best version of this show's unflinching sadness and boundless optimism. Having the Imagin just disappear after Kai's defeated is heartbreaking. No tearful goodbyes or supportive morals, they're just gone. It's impossible not to feel shocked by that, to not have that visceral stab of loss push you to tears. All these characters you spent a series with, and that's it. Gone. Ryotaro's grief was just a mirror of what I was going through. Like Yuuto, I'd've eaten a thousand bowls of (gross) mushrooms to honor Deneb's passing. It's incredibly effective as tragedy. And then the reveal that, no, of course all of these heroic imagination monsters from the end of time aren't gone. They wanted to wait a beat, then surprise their friends, but now the moment has gone on a little long and oh no they are crying really hard and it feels bad and uh oh this joke is going to feel a little cruel now and uh he's still crying and now Hana's crying too and Sieg's realizing that Ryotaro didn't even mourn him like the rest and they're all being a little too loud and the jig is definitely up because Ryotaro is looking this way hi I've arrived ha ha whoops. It's this impossibly difficult transition from tears of sadness to tears of relief, and I'll probably praise Kobayashi for it forever. As frustrating as her inability to do a mystery plot is (her skipping one in OOO, or at least not calling it out, is probably why it's my favorite work of hers so far), her ability to nail emotion is unsurpassed. The whole point of this series is that even when things end, as they inevitably do, they never really end as long as we remember them. It's a lesson that's important for kids, who are going to gain and lose friends rapidly over their adolescence, but it's one we could all stand to consider more often. Our memories are our strength, and they testify to our convictions. People change and grow, but there's a part of all of those relationships that we'll carry around forever. It's not a loss when someone's not around, because they're always around as long as we remember them. The past should always give us strength, you know? That's a nice sentiment, for a lovely finale. THE BAGGAGE CAR -A lot of little touches that I liked in this episode. -There's a moment where Kai just does a two-second scream of frustration, out of nowhere, and it's a great piece of acting. It's not a huge close-up or a dramatic wide-shot. He's just got this scream of frustration in him that he needs to get out, and it really helped center him in one of his final scenes. -It looks like the show added some dust to the puffs of smoke when Imagins got hit in the fight scenes this time. I noticed it a bunch in the Momo section. Could just be the winter chill getting the smoke to come out a little thicker, but to me it looked grittier. Definitely made Momo's sword strikes seem deadlier, like chunks of the monsters were being hacked off. -The Death Imagin wasn't even really a character, but I liked the visual of everyone sharing a finisher on him. It's teamwork, and friendship, and everyone winning the day together. Pretty much how the final move in Den-O should go. -Boy, I'm going to be crying about this finale for a day, aren't I? Goddamn. -It's Androzani84's birthday!
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04-17-2021, 01:30 PM | #773 |
take me to space
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 1,406
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Oh wow, was there a reveal about Hana? I totally forgot. All I really remember is the gang all teaming up to deliver one extended finisher on the final Imagin, the humerous fake-out of the Imagin's disappearanc and immediate reunion. ...And that's probably the only memories one really needs of the finale, I think.
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I̶f̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶r̶o̶o̶t̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶K̶a̶i̶ ̶d̶o̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶s̶o̶m̶e̶t̶h̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶s̶i̶d̶e̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶g̶o̶o̶d̶ ̶d̶u̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶a̶u̶d̶i̶e̶n̶c̶e̶ ̶r̶e̶l̶a̶t̶e̶d̶ ̶r̶e̶a̶s̶o̶n̶s̶,̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶n̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶w̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶e̶n̶c̶o̶u̶r̶a̶g̶e̶ ̶m̶e̶m̶b̶e̶r̶s̶ ̶d̶e̶l̶e̶t̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶i̶r̶ ̶a̶c̶c̶o̶u̶n̶t̶ ̶d̶u̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶e̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶r̶o̶u̶b̶l̶e̶s̶o̶m̶e̶ ̶e̶v̶e̶n̶ ̶i̶f̶ ̶i̶t̶'̶s̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶m̶a̶l̶i̶c̶i̶o̶u̶s̶ ̶
(̶̶̶t̶̶̶h̶̶̶e̶̶̶ ̶̶̶m̶i̶s̶t̶a̶k̶e̶ ̶̶̶i̶̶̶s̶̶̶ ̶̶̶s̶̶̶t̶̶̶i̶̶̶l̶̶̶l̶̶̶ ̶̶̶t̶̶̶h̶̶̶e̶̶̶r̶̶̶e̶̶̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶c̶a̶n̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶u̶n̶d̶o̶n̶e̶)̶̶̶,̶ ̶l̶i̶k̶e̶ ̶K̶a̶i̶ ̶s̶h̶o̶w̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶t̶i̶m̶e̶l̶i̶n̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶w̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶g̶i̶v̶e̶ ̶u̶p̶ ̶Y̶u̶u̶t̶o̶ ̶t̶o̶.̶ |
04-17-2021, 01:42 PM | #774 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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Oh wow, was there a reveal about Hana? I totally forgot. All I really remember is the gang all teaming up to deliver one extended finisher on the final Imagin, the humerous fake-out of the Imagin's disappearanc and immediate reunion. ...And that's probably the only memories one really needs of the finale, I think.
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04-17-2021, 01:50 PM | #775 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
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Also, hey, boy, can we not make light of catwhowalks checking out. I don't want to scold anyone for being discourteous about it (I don't want tension or drama!), but it's not something I feel like I should need to point out. It's stressful for them, and it's stressful for me, so maybe let's leave it alone and move on.
I reached out to catwhowalks personally to let them know that the door is always open for them to return, but it sounds like this is a step back they want to take right now, so let's all be respectful of that. I'd prefer not to read any more jokes about it. Thanks for being considerate!
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04-17-2021, 01:54 PM | #776 |
New Member
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Posts: 71
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Having the Imagin just disappear after Kai’s defeated is heartbreaking. No tearful goodbyes or supportive morals, they’re just gone. It’s impossible not to feel shocked by that, to not have that visceral stab of loss push you to tears. All these characters you spent a series with, and that’s it. Gone. Ryotaro’s grief was just a mirror of what I was going through. Like Yuuto, I’d’ve eaten a thousand bowls of (gross) mushrooms to honor Deneb’s passing. It’s incredibly effective as tragedy.
And then the reveal that, no, of course all of these heroic imagination monsters from the end of time aren’t gone. They wanted to wait a beat, then surprise their friends, but now the moment has gone on a little long and oh no they are crying really hard and it feels bad and uh oh this joke is going to feel a little cruel now and uh he’s still crying and now Hana’s crying too and Sieg’s realizing that Ryotaro didn’t even mourn him like the rest and they’re all being a little too loud and the jig is definitely up because Ryotaro is looking this way hi I’ve arrived ha ha whoops. I want to say that I also enjoy the Time Nonsense but then it occurs to me that I somehow completely forgot that Hana was their kid All Along so apparently I am less attached to the Time Nonsense than I thought I was, haha My favorite specific thing about this finale is that Sato absolutely nailed the scene of Ryotaro mourning his lost friends and then finding them arguing about their prank, and I think it's arguably his best (of many great) moments on the series. His FACE, it also killed me, but, you know. In a good way. |
04-17-2021, 02:03 PM | #777 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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It's not Blade's ending, no, but Blade's ending murdered me to death and I might have run screaming from Kamen Rider if we'd had another one like that just 3 series later... I did love this ending for Den-Oh, and it's stuck with me really, really well. Kobayashi's ability to nail emotion is something I love about her writing and I will happily watch pretty much anything she's ever done regardless of the rest of its flaws when it gives me moments like this one. It makes me v happy that it resonated with you, too.
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My favorite specific thing about this finale is that Sato absolutely nailed the scene of Ryotaro mourning his lost friends and then finding them arguing about their prank, and I think it's arguably his best (of many great) moments on the series. His FACE, it also killed me, but, you know. In a good way.
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04-17-2021, 02:03 PM | #778 |
Standing By
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Location: USA
Posts: 2,114
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Fair! That is a contradictory expectation. I guess there's a difference between the limited information a character has (like Ryutaros) and the more detailed information the viewer has, and it makes it difficult for me to see how any viewer would think Ura has been working them for a year. Luckily, the show tips its hand quick enough for it to not really be a big deal.
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KAMEN RIDER DEN-O EPISODE 49 - “THE CLIMAX GOES ON, NO MATTER WHAT”
The last few days, I honestly didn't know if I even liked this show. Was I just talking myself into it? Was I fixating on the few things I liked while trying to diminish the many things I didn’t? (ha ha) Did I want to like Den-O more than I actually liked Den-O? And then there’s this finale, and I can’t stop crying, so I guess I really liked Den-O. Quote:
The plot machinations, the Time Nonsense, it’s whatever. I’ll talk more about its strengths and weaknesses tomorrow in the Series Wrap-Up post (which feels like it’s going to be massive; lot of topics to cover), but for this episode, it existed mostly to be a thing to defeat. Like most of the junction point stuff, the Hana reveal is one that feels right while falling apart the second you try and explain it. She’s the safety net that keeps Kai from winning long enough for the heroes to defeat him. It’s difficult to parse and full of underexplained elements (there was a timeline once where Hana was raised by her parents but Sakurai erased her memory of it, I guess?), and it all shows up way later than you’d like, but it’s fine. It’s just there to allow for a victory condition. It’s not the point of any of this.
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Having the Imagin just disappear after Kai’s defeated is heartbreaking. No tearful goodbyes or supportive morals, they’re just gone. It’s impossible not to feel shocked by that, to not have that visceral stab of loss push you to tears. All these characters you spent a series with, and that’s it. Gone. Ryotaro’s grief was just a mirror of what I was going through. Like Yuuto, I’d’ve eaten a thousand bowls of (gross) mushrooms to honor Deneb’s passing. It’s incredibly effective as tragedy.
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It’s this impossibly difficult transition from tears of sadness to tears of relief, and I’ll probably praise Kobayashi for it forever. As frustrating as her inability to do a mystery plot is (her skipping one in OOO, or at least not calling it out, is probably why it’s my favorite work of hers so far), her ability to nail emotion is unsurpassed.
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Really? There's a reason why I'm so afraid of committing mistakes like that, because never live it down is a thing, and depends on the community but there can be those where if that person makes a mistake, others will just constantly bring up that one mistake and urge others to take anything they say with a grain of salt due to that mistake.
Maybe PM me if you want to reply to this since Die doesn't want any more comments on this subject.
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心 と 刃 Last edited by Sh Ranger; 04-17-2021 at 02:08 PM.. |
04-17-2021, 03:43 PM | #779 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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It's all there in the title. All of the plot, the mystery, the confusion, none of that matters. That's not what Den-O is about. The climax goes on, cause of the passionate feelings shared by the characters and the memories they cherish from their adventures. Those things don't go away even with the flow of time, since the past is the foundation that creates the way for the future. That's why these characters can keep coming back, no matter the plot or the villains they face, since people will always remember them and the connections they made across time.
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Well Sakurai can't really erase Kohana's memories, since she's a Singularity Point. Any changes in her past have no effect on her, so she remembers the events of overwritten timelines. It's probably since she was so young when Airi and Sakurai sent her away that she has no memories of that time.
It definitely comes across as Oh Did We Not Mention This, which explains why so many viewers forgot it even happened!
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04-17-2021, 09:55 PM | #780 |
Ex-Weather Three leader
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And thus we arrive at the terminal. For now.
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