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10-09-2019, 09:37 PM | #1 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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I'm curious what everyone's thoughts are on the above poll. In case I explained it poorly (would not surprise me!), what I'm wondering is if you prefer a Kamen Rider series to start with the main character already a Rider (like Haruto in Wizard or Sento in Build), or for them to become a Rider at the start of the series (Emu in Ex-Aid, Takeru in Ghost). Like, do you want the origin story to come later, or do you want to see the origin in the first episode? Let me know which you prefer!
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10-09-2019, 09:48 PM | #2 |
I have a problematic type
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,426
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I don't really prefer one over the other. Both have been done really effectively in the past. My favorite first episode in the franchise is actually a bit of both: Kamen Rider Black, which begins with a recently escaped Kotaro running away from the Gorgom priests before instinctively triggering his first transformation.
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10-10-2019, 01:19 AM | #3 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 104
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Prefer that they tell the origin story immediately. The faster you know the full background story and motivation of the main character, the easier it is to sympathize and root for them.
Saving the origin story for later can still work tho, I suppose. For instance, showing our hero being competent and confident in their first appearance, then some time later show them when they're still a scared and clumsy newbie struggling to harness their newfound power, emphasizing how far they've come in the process (not a KR show, but there's a show that did that really well) Quote:
I don't really prefer one over the other. Both have been done really effectively in the past. My favorite first episode in the franchise is actually a bit of both: Kamen Rider Black, which begins with a recently escaped Kotaro running away from the Gorgom priests before instinctively triggering his first transformation.
My favorite one in terms of the MC's immediate reaction of becoming a Rider is Kouta's (Gaim) pure giddiness and joy, trying out various Henshin poses and all. Boy, he really has no idea. |
10-10-2019, 04:30 AM | #4 |
Most-hated user. Kill him
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Imaginationland
Posts: 1,813
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Damn you Die I was meaning to ask this question lol
Let's see how many Riders does this (I don't include the Showa Riders because I don't watch them and it seems like the majority of them receives powers on their debut) First time transforming: 1) Kuuga 2) Ryuki 3) Faiz 4) Kabuto 5) Den-O 6) Decade* 7) OOO 8) Fourze 9) Gaim 10) Drive 11) Ghost 12) Ex-Aid 13) Zi-O 14) Zero-One Already a Rider: 1) Agito* 2) Blade 3)Hibiki 4) Kiva 5) W 6) Wizard 7) Build * Decade is an anomaly since he transforms for the first time in his debut but we know he had been Decade before he has amnesia. The same follows with Agito however I included him in the Already category since it shows flashbacks of Agito in the past while we never see pre-amnesia Decade. My guess is that I prefer the Already aspect since not only it skips the origin story but also allows the origin to be told as a crucial flashback which worked really well on Captain Marvel.
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10-10-2019, 05:14 AM | #5 |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 2,934
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I think I generally prefer when the Riders start out as established Riders. It can lead to more dynamic first episodes (and first quarters) since it allows the story to skip a bunch of steps and just launch us directly into knowing who the Rider is, what they're fighting for, what to "expect" from the show...at least for me, first episode like Wizard's, W's or even Stronger's left a lot more of an impact than I think the alternative would have (though the latter there goes immediately into his backstory on episode 2, it's still memorable to me as it's pretty much literally the only Showa Rider besides the oddball RX to which that applies)
It's not a guaranteed recipe for success or anything, but I still think it also has some benefits just structurally, especially for modern toy-heavy series. Like for Build, the first couple episodes didn't blow me away, but the fact that Build was already established as a Rider was a massive boon to the story, since we could spend more time focusing on secondary characters like Banjou, and it allowed the episodic story to not have to bother introducing like a dozen toys individually because all of that was squared away pre-show. Guys like W and Wizard are experienced and don't have to fumble their way through new forms or finding new toys every other episode for the plot, they can just pull out what they need when they need...it just gives the story a little more room to breathe, I guess? It's not like shows in which the Rider has to figure stuff out as they go can't do a good job of it or anything, it's not necessarily a detriment to the story ever really. As has been said, both ways have been done both well and poorly. When it's done right, though, established heroes can be more fun, imo. |
10-10-2019, 06:24 AM | #6 |
Ex-Weather Three leader
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,558
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Quote:
I don't really prefer one over the other. Both have been done really effectively in the past. My favorite first episode in the franchise is actually a bit of both: Kamen Rider Black, which begins with a recently escaped Kotaro running away from the Gorgom priests before instinctively triggering his first transformation.
As for which type of origin do I prefer? It really depends on the show. The "I just happen to stumble upon this thing" was probably best done by Ryuki, Gaim, and Zero-One. Ryuki's was built up very well given its investigative mystery setup and was worth two episodes, Gaim I loved because of how Kouta would tinker with the sengoku driver early in the show, and Zero-One felt the most fluid despite being part of this type of origin. The "I'm ready" was done well by Kabuto. When I say "I'm ready" I mean someone who has prior knowledge but never used it before on-screen. Anyways, Tendou appears as this enigma in front of Kagami and the viewers, cut to brief workout montage and then he pulls out the belt, cut to Kagami going "My heart bleeds justice!" only to have his dreams shattered by Kabuto Zector picking the dude that saved his wallet the other day while carrying tofu. Last but not least, the "I already am one" was probably best done by W. We get a brief flashback, cut to some time later, and it naturally progresses to him and Philip being a Kamen Rider while trying to solve a mystery. It was just well set-up.
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Last edited by Sunred; 10-10-2019 at 06:27 AM.. |
10-10-2019, 06:47 AM | #7 |
Showa Girl
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 9,064
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I voted for already-a-rider purely because we don't really get that a lot these days; as noted, before Build, the most recent was Wizard, and before him W. In this past decade we've had a grand total of 3 riders that don't become a rider in the first episode. So I would like to see a little variety.
That said, um, I kind of... love both? They're both great methods, and I really don't mind which one is picked. OOO and Build are my two favourite seasons, so that should show right there that I'm a fan of either way. Just depends what's right for the story -- my real vote here is "I prefer for the stories to be a bit more unique to each other". |
10-10-2019, 02:21 PM | #8 |
Dai Shogun
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Germany
Posts: 7,530
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I prefer already established Riders as the action scenes come off more genuine and sometimes are just better all around because they don’t have to do the dumb "Oh wow I didn't know I could do this!" or "Wait, how does this work?" - moments.
That being said, even in the premises were the main heroes transforms for the first time, some shows are doing it great and some... don't. Ex-Aid and Ghost are prime examples actually. Ex-Aid was fun since Emu could use his natural video game knowledge to navigate his new-found abilities. Ghost... was a complete mess. One of my least favorite first episodes in Rider history. Okay, seeing the protagonist die immediately is actually a unique concept, but they absolutely ruin it with one of the weakest first transformations and an even weaker, stupid first battle. Followed up by a second battle that is as generic as it is uninspired. … Wait, what were we talking about again? |
10-10-2019, 02:49 PM | #9 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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While the idea of a fully-formed Kamen Rider kicking ass and changing forms in the first episode is cool in theory, in practice I find myself enjoying origin debut episodes better. Mostly it's because the few Already Rider series I've seen tend to lean pretty heavy on The Hero Has A Devastating Secret That Will Change Everything as the reason why we can't see how they became a Rider. Shows where the hero gets their driver and does their Inaugural Henshin in the first episode, it's not that there's no secrets about them to be discovered later, it's that they're fairly minor and don't fundamentally alter the show. Or, at least, it doesn't feel like the show is waiting to tell you them? It's not a main element of what the show's about, anyway.
I don't know, there're probably a bunch of exceptions to my complaint, but I feel like Already Rider shows are frequently too backwards-looking, spending too long filling in Secret Origins, while New Rider shows are more forward-looking, racing to tell new stories and expand their worlds.
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10-10-2019, 06:04 PM | #10 |
The Immortal King Tasty
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Every diner you've ever been to.
Posts: 3,833
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Honestly, I don't think it has that much of an effect on the way premiere episodes play out either way. A show like Build still has to exposit details to the audience about everything, and a show like Gaim can pretty effortlessly work through that kind of thing without making the pace drag anyway. Actually, Kouta figuring out how the Musou Saber works has far more entertainment value than Build blandly smacking around some random monster at night in my opinion. In contrast, the opening scene of Wizard is infinitely cooler than, say, Eiji fumbling around when he first becomes OOO.
The point is, it's really all up to how the show presents itself. I think what the decision to start with the main Rider already established actually affects is a lot more long-term than that, and once again, it's all up to the kind of story being told. Starting with the origin for shows like Gaim and Ghost is crucial because they're about watching a young hero gradually grow into the role. It just wouldn't make sense to do anything else. A coming of age story like that simply demands the viewer be totally on the same page as the protagonist, so they can start relating to them right away. Given that Kamen Rider is a show aimed at children, it shouldn't be surprising why this is the one they usually go with. Kids tend to be doing a lot of growing up! Conversely, doing the opposite is best suited to a show where you want to present the hero as having some layers to gradually unwrap, or to have them be more of an ideal other characters strive towards. Build is a great example of both of these angles, because early on, you're largely seeing Sento through Ryuuga's eyes, as this amazing, righteous guy he wants to live up to, building up that image of him to make that arc click into place before diving directly into the more complex, flawed character Sento actually is. Haruto is also one of my favorite Rider protagonists in part because the show basically never runs out of new bits of backstory for him, and every time something about his past is revealed, it puts his character and personality in a new light to some extent. There's this cool fluidity to that, and while I'm sure a lot of you are snarking "Haruto had a personality?" right now, the point I'm trying to make here is that there's no real easy answer to this question for me. I'd lean towards "already a Rider" (I REALLY love Wizard's first episode), but I also think starting from the blank slate with a hero that doesn't know what's going on has a lot of inherent merit to it, and there are just as many of those premieres I love too (Drive and Kuuga stand out off the top of my head). I also don't think it directly matters to how awkwardly the merch is worked in. Wizard and Build may have both already been Riders, but they were still both getting new gear in every episode, with all that entails. Haruto testing out a new Ring is hardly very different from Eiji testing a new Medal, and since Eiji got most of those by ripping them out of the enemies he was fighting, "become a Rider" show OOO actually tended to take up less of the episode's attention with that than Wizard, which had to fit in Wajima walking up to Haruto to hand him a new toy in one scene or another. The only reason it wasn't awkward in Build is because the show completely gave up on having Sento actually do any experimenting to find Best Matches almost immediately in favor of using Ryuuga as a huge narrative shortcut being played for laughs. One last time, it's all in how the show handles itself.
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