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07-07-2021, 05:51 AM | #811 |
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As much as I am open about liking Kiva… I do agree that there really isn’t a reason to see these characters again. Pretty much all of their threads are resolved and there’s little in the way of loose ends to justify their reappearances. Still, that’s not a bad thing, considering how a lot of modern shows have a tendency for characters to reappear long past their ability to tell a decent story, rather than being sent out with a high, leaving the fans wanting more.
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07-07-2021, 05:53 AM | #812 |
Showa Girl
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 9,064
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That's... honestly kinda surprising to read! Aside from a couple bad episodes near the end, I saw you constantly singing the show's praises and breaking your INOUE FOREVER quota to the point I thought this might end up being a big favourite of yours. And maybe it is, but... gosh that's a little scathing!
It almost reminds me of how I felt about Gaim? I generally had a good time following along with it at the time, but it left me with nothing and I'm not really sad to never see more of it. It's gotten a little more negative than that over time, and Kiva absolutely cares about its character development more than Gaim; but even so... how much would you say you like this show, then? Unless that post is as best as you can put the feelings it's left you with, because I wouldn't blame you!
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Last edited by Kurona; 07-07-2021 at 05:56 AM.. |
07-07-2021, 06:47 AM | #813 |
Ex-Weather Three leader
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As much as I am not a huge fan of Inoue, I will say that Kiva's final battle is one of my favorite moments. Probably because of Supernova playing in the background while Wataru and Taiga have their double rider moment. Two Kivas finally breaking the chain and forging a new path that divided humans and fangires. The trip was harsh and grimy, but totally worth it for those two. And V-Cinema Kiva IV when, Toei? I want more Masao.
You know back in the days I was hoping they would make a V-Cinema spinoff about Masao and his band of riders fighting the Neo Fangire. It would be Masao as the new Kiva and then we also would get the next gen IXA and Dark Kiva who resemble Yuri and King. Anyhoos, Another journey finished. Good stuff.
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Last edited by Sunred; 07-07-2021 at 06:50 AM.. |
07-07-2021, 08:43 AM | #814 |
Standing By
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: USA
Posts: 2,105
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I've gained a new appreciation for Kiva after rewatching it, so I've promoted it from 10/19 to 7/19 in my currently Blade-less Heisei Rider ranking!
Quote:
Ha ha ha, you're right! Since Otoya dies in 1986 (or early 1987, depending on if the '86 plotline moves at the same rate the '08 one does), that means Wataru's at least 20 when the show starts... and they did a movie where he has to go back to high school?! He was way too old for that! On a lot of levels!
Also, yeah, there's basically no way Megumi can be older than Wataru, unless there's a deleted scene where we find out that Yuri had a kid at home the whole time and just never talked about it with anyone for an entire year. Megumi refers to herself as Wataru's older sister a bunch of times, so you weren't just imagining it. Shizuka is a 14 year-old who refers to herself as Wataru's mother, so there's very little correlation between age and these two girls wanting to act as a mature role model to a dude who is actually older but lacks social skills due to his strange upbringing. And yeah, the 1986 plot did roll in to 1987 for exactly one episode, that being the one where Otoya dies. If you paid close attention to the OP, you might have noticed the years had changed to 1987 and 2009. Quote:
Where do I sign?
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心 と 刃 Last edited by Sh Ranger; 07-07-2021 at 08:51 AM.. |
07-07-2021, 12:29 PM | #815 |
I have a problematic type
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,424
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So, final thoughts on Kamen Rider Caoimhe.
This was the show I was most looking forward to revisiting from the back half of Phase 1. Before Ghost took its spot, I had been very vocal about Kiva being my least favorite Rider series. But last year's Faiz rewatch really made me re-evaluate that series and gain a much stronger appreciation for it. I was curious to see if Kiva would go through a similar upgrade in opinion and I would say that it did. -ish. I still don't love Kiva and I still think it's definitely the weakest show of Phase 1 for me, subjectively speaking. I've seen enough of Inoue's other shows to recognize that Kiva was made up of a lot of recycled material and between that and the hilarious apathy towards promoting the merchandise, I really get the sense that his heart wasn't in this one. I don't think the story is bad, per se, but it can be a little disjointed in places and the split timelines lead to some real pacing issues near the end. As I've probably indicated several times now, I enjoyed the '86 side of the story far more than the '08 one. I love the energy that Otoya brings to the show and I like watching him develop into someone who's still pretty awful but also a hero by the end. Yuri is also great, if too often on the receiving end of the show's more frustrating plot developments. For the '08 side... well, I like Megumi a lot more than I did the first time through. She's delightful and easily the highlight of that part of the show. I still find Nago to be generally unlikable and Wataru's slow progress with repeated backsliding still frustrates me. The extreme focus on the Wataru/Taiga/Mio triangle in the final quarter of the show - to the expense of not only the other '08 characters but the entire '86 story - really tried my patience a lot as we closed in on the end. All that being said, I still had some real fun with the show, sometimes in really unexpected places. I liked the movie (which was new to me) a whole hell of a lot more than I thought I would. I definitely gained new appreciation for some of the side characters like Kengo, Megumi, and the coffee shop owner (I'm sure he has a name, but I am completely blanking on it). Going into the show knowing how it worked also made me find all of the inexplicable toy promos way more amusing this time through. I've criticized Kiva a lot for an unwillingness to explain a lot of what happens on screen, but I'm finding that to be more of a charming quirk than an annoyance now. I don't know if I have any big final thoughts to wrap this up with. I don't love Kiva. I don't even like Kiva sometimes. End of the day, though, I can easily think of several Rider shows that I would happily choose Kiva over if I wanted a quick KR fix and had limited options to choose from. |
07-07-2021, 01:01 PM | #816 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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Quote:
As much as I am open about liking Kiva… I do agree that there really isn’t a reason to see these characters again. Pretty much all of their threads are resolved and there’s little in the way of loose ends to justify their reappearances. Still, that’s not a bad thing, considering how a lot of modern shows have a tendency for characters to reappear long past their ability to tell a decent story, rather than being sent out with a high, leaving the fans wanting more.
Quote:
That's... honestly kinda surprising to read! Aside from a couple bad episodes near the end, I saw you constantly singing the show's praises and breaking your INOUE FOREVER quota to the point I thought this might end up being a big favourite of yours. And maybe it is, but... gosh that's a little scathing!
It almost reminds me of how I felt about Gaim? I generally had a good time following along with it at the time, but it left me with nothing and I'm not really sad to never see more of it. It's gotten a little more negative than that over time, and Kiva absolutely cares about its character development more than Gaim; but even so... how much would you say you like this show, then? Unless that post is as best as you can put the feelings it's left you with, because I wouldn't blame you! A lot of it is just in how I write? I tend not to go into the posts with firm statements and hypotheses. It's very stream-of-consciousness, where I just let myself start typing and let whatever comes out becomes the point I wanted to make. It's sloppy, but at least it's honest. Writing about a Kiva as a finished piece of art was... weird. There's plenty I enjoyed about watching this series (I hope I've made that clear!), but in retrospect, I found that it was a lot of random elements. Episodes about sympathetic monsters, comedic diversions, smaller moments. The sweep and scope of the series didn't feel like anything I adored. The journey of the characters was pleasant, without really being something I could rave about. I don't know. It's less of a firm commitment to judging it and more that I had this feeling, and I hoped by talking about it I could figure out why I felt that way. There really isn't one huge problem I had (well: the last two episodes), but more a bunch of questions I had about the overall effectiveness of the series. Did the dual timelines work for the duration of the series? Did the show use its cast as well as it could've? Would I want more stories about any of them? And when they the answers I could come up with were so ambivalent, it was like... yeah, maybe this was a series that was fun to watch but still not that great. (Also, I tried to write this response when I was in the middle of a couple things at work, and that was a huge mistake. I have to stop every other sentence to do something, and that is terrible for my train of thought. Sorry! I might have a better answer later.) Quote:
As much as I am not a huge fan of Inoue, I will say that Kiva's final battle is one of my favorite moments. Probably because of Supernova playing in the background while Wataru and Taiga have their double rider moment. Two Kivas finally breaking the chain and forging a new path that divided humans and fangires.
Glad to hear! That's some strong praise and stiff competition!
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07-07-2021, 01:16 PM | #817 |
I have a problematic type
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,424
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I don't know how much I agree with the charges that Kiva is noticeably more sexist than the average Rider show, but this moment right here is possibly the most toxically masculine moment I can remember seeing in modern Rider in a long time.
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07-07-2021, 02:13 PM | #818 |
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Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 1,290
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Quote:
KAMEN RIDER KIVA EPISODE 48 - “FINALE: THE INHERITORS OF KIVA”
There’s nominally stuff about the value of family, how family members support each other. It’s a little facile, compared to some of the thorny elements Inoue’s played with before on this series. Here, it’s Otoya’s IXA gauntlet from 1986 catching Wataru when he falls. It’s a cute shot, but it’s not really an evolution of where things were left with the two of them. It’s a callback, or a nod towards character growth, but it doesn’t add a period at the end of the sentence for Wataru and Otoya. Wataru wasn't feeling disconnected from Otoya, so having his dad support him is just an Oh Thanks moment, rather than something pivotal to Wataru's character. It’s cute, but not anything that feels profound at all. Quote:
The bigger examination of how family supports each other is in Wataru’s ridiculous plan to save Taiga by stealing his throne and goading him into a fight. I couldn’t even begin to tell you why this seemed kind to Wataru. It’s kindness from the Shima school of caring for people, where it mostly serves to put Taiga into a bloodthirsty rage. Luckily, as soon as Wataru reveals his plan (with Shima there, because god forbid this show not have Shima in a big emotional moment), Taiga immediately and entirely regrets everything he’s done to date, and gratefully accepts Wataru’s love.
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Like… do you know how badly I want to like this scene? This is a character defusing an adversary by hugging them and telling them they are loved. I adore that shit. That is one of my favorite Kamen Rider moves of all time. That is my Rider Kick; the Rider Hug. But this feels insanely rushed, with Taiga doing a complete 180 in about forty words, and Wataru tightening the screws and acting like an asshole for very little reason. It’s nuts. There’s a lot to like about Wataru trying to save his brother from hardship, but… no. It’s a plan that pushes Taiga to almost kill his mother (oh, Taiga also didn’t kill her, in a scene that made me laugh pretty hard) and almost kill his brother, and it only succeeds because Taiga suddenly sees Wataru’s rivalry as something Wataru is doing to help him. It’s like Taiga got hit on the head with a coconut, and all of a sudden he’s like I Don’t Need Power If I Have My Brother. You’ve got to work way harder for that twist to work, and this episode just doesn’t put in the time.
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Of a thousand things I’d’ve guessed this episode would end with, the wedding of Megumi and Nago wouldn’t have been one of them. But it’s here, and it’s the best. All of the Nago and Megumi stuff in this episode is fantastic, and I almost can’t believe it. This is the finale of Kamen Rider Kiva, and Wataru’s story in it is the B-plot I won’t remember in a couple weeks. (That’s not true. I will always remember Maya’s look of happiness as her two sons just start beating the holy hell out of each other in front of her. That was, by far, the funniest thing in this entire series. They are brutally fighting out of love!) The little story they told about Nago and Megumi is the one that worked for me.
Quote:
Them two always had great chemistry. First as workplace rivals, then as workplace friends, and now as romantic partners. It’s not a huge story, and it doesn’t have a bunch of twists, but that’s why I liked it. While the Wataru/Taiga story is tying itself in knots and speeding through character developments, the Nago/Megumi story has a training montage, because the episode wants you to feel the time they’re putting in. It’s dead simple, this plot. Nago needs someone to help him, and Megumi respects him enough to not let him give up. It’s just support, and being there for someone when they fall. It’s like an origin story for their love, which is why I’ll remember it more than Taiga lying about killing his mother or Wataru making his Three Weird Uncles think he’s a dick. Megumi and Nago had a year-long story that ended in a wedding, and that’s maybe what I wanted out of Kamen Rider Kiva after all.
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07-07-2021, 07:02 PM | #819 |
The Immortal King Tasty
Join Date: Jan 2012
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I'm going to save my big thoughts on Kiva as a whole for my next big post, because this one is going to be long enough as it is. Like I said, I'm not quite done with the music gimmick yet, and even though I still won't ~quite~ be done after this, this is definitely going to the most elaborate one of these I do.
See, the first idea I had in mind as the thing I wanted to do in this thread was actually to give straight up translations for some of the songs in the show. This was quite a while back, which I know for sure because coincidentally, the day I gave up on that idea was also the day I wrote a translation for the Kikaider anime's ED over in DreamSword's thread, just a hair over a year back, apparently. While that ended up going surprisingly smoothly, I had spent some time over the prior couple days getting nowhere translating Destiny's Play, and then came the realization that Die watching the OZC stuff meant he'd be getting to see, in show, a translation of that exact song based off one written by my eternal fansubbing idol, one of the people who indirectly got me interested in this whole translation business to begin with. I was not going to top that! And since I was only giving Destiny's Play a shot to see how it felt before really committing to the idea, I didn't, let the whole concept go, and once the thread actually started, quickly stumbled upon the format you've seen from me here instead. That all being said, there are a handful of TETRA-FANG songs I've never given that much attention prior to this thread, and I was so struck by how much I liked the Message trilogy after ignoring it for so long, that I decided to give the translation thing a shot again, because there really aren't many out there for these songs. (I will give a quick shout-out here to the single person I came across who did the second and third songs at all.) Which is a huge shame! It's a great group of intimate little tunes that provide a lot of insight into Wataru's state of mind throughout the show, the same way Destiny's Play and Supernova do – only more mellow. I love 'em all so much now that simply describing the gist of the lyrics like I have been feels totally inadequate. Part of the reason I hesitate to do a song translation especially is because after a point, it sort of inevitably stops being Fujibayashi's words and starts being mine, and I don't think those words are going to be as good, but, if you'll forgive me for being a little loose in some spots, a little clunky in others, and rather beige all around, I'm confident enough I've put something together that can at least easily give you a good feel for each of these songs without requiring any further deciphering, even if it will only ever be strictly my interpretation. So without further ado, let's take a look at each of them, and a look back at the series and its music in the process. (First up is the very original Message, more formally known as Message [Tribute to Father], as most songs on the Supernova mini album have a subtitle like that. This is generally related to a form name, as the album, released not too long after Emperor debuted in the show, consisted largely of the songs written for each form that had been playing over the episodes in the preceding couple months. Though weirdly Emperor Form itself is styled as "Empire form". Anyway, as you can guess from those brackets, Message is all about Wataru's relationship with Otoya, and how much he looks to him for strength. It's written very much from the perspective of the early-series Wataru that was still scared to even step outside his house. This one could be considered Otoya's message to his son.) まだ暗い朝の街を闇が少し溶けてゆくよ On a morning that's still gloomy, the darkness slowly begins to fade away Tell me, 僕が探している答えにもいつかはまぶしい光が射す? Tell me, will a bright light ever shine on the answer I'm searching for as well? もしあなたが此処にいたのならなんて云うのかな... 教えて If you were here with me, what would you say? Let me know 遥か遠い時に祈った I sent this prayer to a far-off time 朝と夜の色混ざるグラデーション Morning and night, their colors mixed in gradation 二度と無い景色ありのままだから美しいYour message...? It's a scene that's one of a kind, beautiful just the way it is. Is that your message? See me 僕は歩き出して See me, I've started walking forward 自分の早さでいい地図さえなくてもいい I'm fine if I go my own pace, I'm fine even without a map もしあなたがそばにいたのなら何を話すだろう... 大丈夫 If you were by my side, I wonder, what would you talk about? It's alright 空は僕の真上にいつも The sky will always be right there above me 雲が形変え風に流れてく The clouds change shape, carried along by the wind 変わってくものと 変わらない大切なものとYour message Things that change, precious things that don't, and your message 朝と夜の色混ざるグラデーション Morning and night, their colors mixed in gradation 二度と無い瞬間忘れない It's a moment that's one of a kind, that I won't ever forget 雲が形変え風に流れてく The clouds change shape, carried along by the wind 変わってくものと変わらない大切な物と... Things that change, precious things that don't... いつだって受け取れるのさYour message and me, always here to receive your message (Following that up is Prayer~Message2, which was originally part of the Destiny album released later on in December, right as the show was moving into its final stretch. Fittingly, it's from the perspective of Wataru somewhere after that first quarter; still constantly doubting himself, and yet even the difference in the things he worries about makes it clear how much stronger he's grown. This one could be considered Wataru's message to his father.) 近くに感じてもねぇ永遠に追いつけない No matter how close I get, I can never seem to catch up さみしい影ふみみたいあなたは遠くて Like I'm chasing after a shadow, you're always so far away 大切な人をたぶん見つけたんだ Can you hear me? I think I've found someone I really care about. Can your hear me? 守り抜きたくて頼りなさ過ぎて自分が歯がゆくて I want to protect them no matter what, but I'm so unreliable it's got me frustrated あなたの音に溢れてる迷いのない強さを僕もいつか持てるなら Your sound is overflowing with such unwavering strength, and if I could have that someday too 誰かを幸せに出来るそんな音奏でたい I want to play a sound that can bring people happiness 届けこの祈り My little prayer Let this wish reach you, my little prayer 毎日の速さにときどき心追いつかない Every day moves at such a rapid pace, sometimes my heart can't keep up 昔の自分だったら逃げ出してたかも If I were the way I used to be, I might've run away by now 大切な人が笑ってくれるなら Can you hear me? If I can just see someone I care about smile... Can you hear me? それだけで良くてでも難しくてまだまだ不器用で That's all that matters, but it's still tough, and I'm still so lacking あなたの音はいつだって染み込むよう優しく僕もいつか出来るかな Your sound always leaves a deep impression of your kindness, and I wonder if I could do that someday too 自分だけの音見つけて世界を包み込むように I want to find a sound all my own, and to let it cover the whole world 愛で満たしたい My little prayer I'll fill it with my love, my little prayer 言葉よりももっと伝わるよ確かに Feel you あなたの祈り It comes across clearer than any words; I feel you, and your wish あなたの音に溢れてる迷いのない強さを僕もいつか…Promise Your sound is overflowing with such unwavering strength, and someday I'll have that too, I promise 誰かを幸せに出来るそんな音奏でたい I want to play a sound that can bring people happiness 届け祈り To your heart Let my wish reach to your heart 自分だけの音見つけて世界を包み込むように I want to find a sound all my own, and to let it cover the whole world 愛で満たしたい My little prayer I'll fill it with my love, my little prayer (Finally, from the Re-Union album, we have Beginning~Message3, which was also the last song on said album. This is important to note, because Re-Union came out over halfway into Decade's run, and its mere existence is a testament to how awesome Kiva's music truly is, as this simply doesn't happen for most Rider shows. It was a real last hurrah for Kiva, and as such, the lyrics ~sort of~ reflect the conclusion of the series, with Wataru reflecting on a hard-earned happy ending, and the notable distinction of Otoya finally joining in. However, the song is perhaps primarily made to be a final farewell from TETRA-FANG and Kiva as a whole, and in that context it really tugs at the old heartstrings. This one could be considered the band's message directly to you.) まるで今日までの出来事がぜんぶ夢みたいに感じる It's enough to make all that's happened seem almost like a dream 嵐去った後曇りない空この街を今包んで The storm has passed, and the sky above is as clear as can be 何かが終わって何かの始まりが待ってるだろう Something has reached its end, and something else is surely waiting to start 風が流れてくように自由に歩き出せばいい You only need to set off in the direction you wish, as free as the wind 遠くなる声はじまる別れ A voice fades into the distance, and we begin to part ways じゃあまたねいつもみたいに笑って I'll see you later, so smile the way you always do 憶えているよ永遠新しい夜明け探し Just begin The memories will last forever, just begin the search for a brand new dawn ただ側にいても思うことがぜんぶ伝わる訳じゃないよ I could be right by your side, but that alone won't let you know everything I'm feeling ずっと離れても繋がった心届くこともあるはず Even if we're always apart, our connected hearts can still reach one another too 始まりの音が君の耳聴こえているのなら If the sound of a new beginning is reaching your ears 古い荷物は持たずにそのまま歩き出せばいい You only need to set off, leaving all your old luggage behind 明日の方へまた逢えるまで Heading towards tomorrow, until we can meet again じゃあまたねここで一度さよなら I'll see you later, this is goodbye for now 繰り返すのさそれぞれ出逢いと別れそして Just begin The cycle keeps on going, just begin all those meetings and farewells ときどき不安な夜が来たら覗いてみればいい Whenever an uneasy night comes, simply look inside 今ここでは1人だけれど Forever in your heart You may be alone right now, but forever in your heart これまでに出逢った愛が見つかるはず You'll find all the love you've encountered along the way 遠くなる声はじまる別れ A voice fades into the distance, and we begin to part ways じゃあまたねいつもみたいに笑って I'll see you later, so smile the way you always do 憶えているよ永遠新しい夜明け探し Just begin The memories will last forever, just begin the search for a brand new dawn 明日の方へまた逢えるまで Heading towards tomorrow, until we can meet again じゃあまたねここで一度さよなら I'll see you later, this is goodbye for now 繰り返すのさそれぞれ出逢いと別れそして Just begin The cycle keeps on going, just begin all those meetings and farewells
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07-07-2021, 08:47 PM | #820 |
Ex-Weather Three leader
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,550
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Hey, at least it's supervised by mama fangire.
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