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09-22-2016, 11:43 PM | #3491 |
The Immortal King Tasty
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Just because it's foreign doesn't mean it's alien. These are shows for little kids. I refuse to believe they're so deeply steeped in Japanese culture that they must be "deciphered". It's just obscure, you know? There doesn't have to be some deep reason behind that. Not to mention Sci-Fi/Fantasy stuff in general has historically had problems with being considered "inane" or "geeky", namely by snooty academic types but still, it can be a mainstream sentiment sometimes.
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Last edited by Fish Sandwich; 09-23-2016 at 12:01 AM.. |
09-22-2016, 11:49 PM | #3492 |
Man with a plan
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Well I guess they can have Takamasa Suga return in a 2017 Spring crossover film. There is the 15th anniversary of Agito ending next year. Toshiki Kashu also return to voice Agito in the video games. So it's possible that he could return as Agito for a 15th anniversary or in a crossover movie.
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09-23-2016, 02:48 PM | #3493 |
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Sigh... yeah, you're right (hangs head, kicks dirt, then looks out at the lake). It's just kind of stupid, y'know? These shows aren't that much different than the DC stuff on CW, at least budget wise - and people watch the shit out of that. But, yeah, those awesome toku quirks... you either get it, or you don't.
What I don't agree with is the comparable budget between the DC/CW and toku shows. The DC shows cost $1-2 million per episode, whereas the budget of your average toku episode would be insanely lucky to max out at $500k. And I do think the low budget is the most alienating factor for Western/US audiences. (Although, the commercial failure of Pacific Rim in the US makes me think that there's not a huge audience for Toei-style Henshin Hero stuff, even if the budget is substantial. We'll have to see how the new Power Rangers movie does at the box office before we're able to draw a firm conclusion.) Quote:
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I think the low budget and toy-focus establishes certain expectations in the minds of mainstream viewers -- namely, that the show will be cheap, juvenile, and not worthy of sincere appreciation. If that's a viewer's first impression, it's gonna be hard to change. Quote:
I've seen plenty of Rider series but I've never felt really lost on what's going on due to the culture differences. For example: My favorite Rider show Blade is about pretty common themes throughout media. Betrayal, loss, hard choices, coming of age, and sacrifice being some examples I can think off the top of my head. Is there just some sort of different tone to it that being Japanese inherently does that I can't distinguish because I'm used to anime and this kind of stuff?
When I hear mainstream American audiences talk about anime and Japanese culture, it's usually with a hint of racist disdain. They say shit like, "oh, Japanese people are so fucking weird, look at their tentacle rape porn and fixation on cartoon pedophilia," as if that's all Japanese media has to offer. That's a gross mindset, but it's hard for me to look at all the racial grossness happening in America today and not find it reflected in the mainstream's attitude toward Japanese cultural exports. Tone is also, I think, a very real concern. There's a lot of unusual tonal juxtaposition in Japanese media that doesn't really happen in American media. In Kamen Rider specifically, we're used to seeing OTT slapstick comedy in one scene, brutal violence in the next, and heartfelt melodrama in the scene after that. That tonal mishmash happens in some American media, but not to the extremes it does in its Japanese counterparts. That whiplash could probably be alienating to mainstream American viewers who are more accustomed to a consistent tone. Quote:
I agree. It'll be niche, but it certainly has a much higher ceiling of appeal it could reach though. I feel like Rider series could rival some popular animes in the states (not the super huge ones like Attack on Titan) if Toei tried hard enough.
Maybe Amazons will open people up a bit. And you know what? I'd love to see Kamen Rider, Sentai, Ultraman, Garo, et al break out into the mainstream. I just don't think it's realistic to expect it to. Quote:
Just because you and I are interested in other cultures' entertainment doesn't mean that the majority of people are. If they were, we'd see a lot more foreign language films do well at the box office. We'd see all sorts of foreign language TV shows on broadcast TV. But... we don't. And that's okay! I have assigned no value charge to that fact. Quote:
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Also... if you think that's the only reason I put forth, you didn't really read my whole argument which credits its niche status primarily to the shows' low budget. Last edited by Kamen Rider Lucha; 09-23-2016 at 03:05 PM.. |
09-23-2016, 03:01 PM | #3494 |
The Immortal King Tasty
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Look, I'm not saying that mainstream Americans aren't capable of understanding this stuff. I'm saying that they're not interested in challenging themselves to do so. It may not be alien, but it's certainly alienating. And I'm not saying that's a good or bad thing -- I'm just making an observation.
But... why is it obscure? Just 'cause? That's a really lazy logic. There's a reason for everything, and I hardly think that saying "Americans are historically disinterested in challenging themselves to experience other cultures" is a particularly profound or earth-shattering proposition. Also... if you think that's the only reason I put forth, you didn't really read my whole argument which credits its niche status primarily to the shows' low budget. But I hate the notion that these goofy shows we're so into are something you "challenge" yourself to understand. I get your message here but the wording comes off extraordinarily pretentious to me. And I didn't mean "just 'cause" with what I said either. I was actually getting at what you're saying that there's an established, broad disinterest in foreign stuff. By "no deep reason" I meant "a lot of reasons". Sorry if that didn't come across clearly enough.
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09-23-2016, 03:25 PM | #3495 |
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Sorry that I rubbed you the wrong way. Hopefully my clarification that I don't think any of this is good or bad eases the sting. Quote:
And getting over (or coming to appreciate) the goofiness itself is a huge challenge. I'm half Japanese, I have a ton of familiarity with anime and other Japanese cultural exports, and I was a massive massive massive Godzilla and Power Rangers fan as a kid -- and even so, getting used to tokusatsu's bizarre tone took some effort for me (not a huge amount, but it wasn't completely effortless). It's probably possible to enjoy these things without this knowledge, but it can be confusing, which is a very real deterrent. Even a whisper of confusion keeps Americans from engaging with this stuff, especially in a world where countless, high quality American shows -- shows that don't require any effort to understand -- are competing for the mainstream audience's attention. Quote:
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09-23-2016, 03:58 PM | #3496 |
The Immortal King Tasty
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I hear you. But pretentious or not, foreignness is a huge barrier of entry for a stunningly large percent of Americans. The number of times I've heard, "I don't want movies with subtitles," is astonishingly large, even among educated people. And then on top of that, there are a ton of cultural nuances that need to be understood to fully appreciate even these goofy ass kids shows (there are honorifics, gender dynamics, foods, social hierarchies, and a ton of other things that do need to be explained to people unfamiliar with anime and other Japanese media).
And getting over (or coming to appreciate) the goofiness itself is a huge challenge. I'm half Japanese, I have a ton of familiarity with anime and other Japanese cultural exports, and I was a massive massive massive Godzilla and Power Rangers fan as a kid -- and even so, getting used to tokusatsu's bizarre tone took some effort for me (not a huge amount, but it wasn't completely effortless). It's probably possible to enjoy these things without this knowledge, but it can be confusing, which is a very real deterrent. Even a whisper of confusion keeps Americans from engaging with this stuff, especially in a world where countless, high quality American shows -- shows that don't require any effort to understand -- are competing for the mainstream audience's attention. Being able to enjoy it without a nuanced understanding of the culture it came from isn't a "probably" in my mind. People don't even have a nuanced understanding of their own culture a lot of the time but that doesn't stop them. It's just like, you don't need to know detailed writing concepts by name to say "I thought x was well written", for example. Any understanding of a story is a valid one. I just get really sketched-out whenever I hear people talk about other countries like they've got so little in common because I feel that contributes to creating the very atmosphere you and I are bummed exist. If you want to get a pal to watch some pretentious French drama are you going to tell them "you just need to take a brief history course before you can watch it" or "dude it's just like any other movie, relax"? Obviously there's differences but Powerman293 had a point talking about Blade. Being human is a pretty universal thing, isn't it? I'm getting way too philosophical for my own good now so I'll stop here but hopefully you get what I'm saying.
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09-23-2016, 04:47 PM | #3497 |
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Look at the public's perception of old Godzilla movies. Look at people's perception of Power Rangers. I wouldn't exactly say they're 100% positive. Many mainstreamers, if they watch this stuff at all, do so ironically -- like, MST3K style. They watch to make fun of the men in suits, or to laugh at the bad dubs, or to giggle at the swarms of histrionic Japanese people feeling from giant monsters. And hey, that's a fair way to derive enjoyment from these things. But it's not a mindset that screams, "I think of this as a legitimate, high-quality artistic accomplishment."
I think the low budget and toy-focus establishes certain expectations in the minds of mainstream viewers -- namely, that the show will be cheap, juvenile, and not worthy of sincere appreciation. If that's a viewer's first impression, it's gonna be hard to change. Quote:
Well, if you're posting on here, you're obviously more open to Japanese culture than a lot of Westerners. I don't think our attitude toward these cultural differences is indicative of mainstream America's. I think we're probably more open-minded, more willing to challenge ourselves, than the average mainstream viewer.
When I hear mainstream American audiences talk about anime and Japanese culture, it's usually with a hint of racist disdain. They say shit like, "oh, Japanese people are so fucking weird, look at their tentacle rape porn and fixation on cartoon pedophilia," as if that's all Japanese media has to offer. That's a gross mindset, but it's hard for me to look at all the racial grossness happening in America today and not find it reflected in the mainstream's attitude toward Japanese cultural exports. Tone is also, I think, a very real concern. There's a lot of unusual tonal juxtaposition in Japanese media that doesn't really happen in American media. In Kamen Rider specifically, we're used to seeing OTT slapstick comedy in one scene, brutal violence in the next, and heartfelt melodrama in the scene after that. That tonal mishmash happens in some American media, but not to the extremes it does in its Japanese counterparts. That whiplash could probably be alienating to mainstream American viewers who are more accustomed to a consistent tone. I was listening to a podcast, where someone who works for IGN (Jared Petty, if you guys want to look him up) lived in Japan and he was explaining the tonal disparity thing. He has the way Japan balances things out, is by having the opposite extremes of light heartedness and darkness. And example he provided was a sign with cute cartoony drawing of a character jumping in front of a train, advising people to not commit suicide. In America, the sign probably just say "Please do not get on the tracks". It's not light hearted, but it's not dark either. So I finally have an understanding for that view. Quote:
I totally agree, and with Shout's Super Sentai and Cruchyroll's Ultraman releases, we're seeing the niche audience expand every day. I can only imagine that expansion will continue with Amazons.
And you know what? I'd love to see Kamen Rider, Sentai, Ultraman, Garo, et al break out into the mainstream. I just don't think it's realistic to expect it to. Quote:
I hear you. But pretentious or not, foreignness is a huge barrier of entry for a stunningly large percent of Americans. The number of times I've heard, "I don't want movies with subtitles," is astonishingly large, even among educated people. And then on top of that, there are a ton of cultural nuances that need to be understood to fully appreciate even these goofy ass kids shows (there are honorifics, gender dynamics, foods, social hierarchies, and a ton of other things that do need to be explained to people unfamiliar with anime and other Japanese media). Quote:
And getting over (or coming to appreciate) the goofiness itself is a huge challenge. I'm half Japanese, I have a ton of familiarity with anime and other Japanese cultural exports, and I was a massive massive massive Godzilla and Power Rangers fan as a kid -- and even so, getting used to tokusatsu's bizarre tone took some effort for me (not a huge amount, but it wasn't completely effortless). It's probably possible to enjoy these things without this knowledge, but it can be confusing, which is a very real deterrent. Even a whisper of confusion keeps Americans from engaging with this stuff, especially in a world where countless, high quality American shows -- shows that don't require any effort to understand -- are competing for the mainstream audience's attention.
Gotcha. And I agree. There are a lot of factors, only a few of which I've addressed. |
09-23-2016, 06:07 PM | #3498 |
Oldtaku
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So, for a good number of people, reading is a "chore". Some can't read fast enough to follow the story, others are weirded out about it in the same manner that some are with understanding the mechanics of comics. It's just too much work when simply trying to be entertained - and you're trying to get them to watch a kid's show. Yeaaahhhh. Well, I have a co-worker who I'm trying to get to watch either Blade, Ryuki or Amazons. He likes action and 'splosions, sci-fi and comic cons and spent some time stationed in Okinawa in the 90's. He should go crazy for it, we see.
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09-23-2016, 06:30 PM | #3499 |
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I'm gonna try not to press the issue any more than this because it'll get outside of the scope of this forum quickly but I guess my opinion is just influenced by my perspective (go figure). I'm just some random American idiot who liked Power Rangers as a little kid and I never felt like I had to "get used" to the tone or anything like that. I saw some shows that looked interesting and I watched them, that's all.
Being able to enjoy it without a nuanced understanding of the culture it came from isn't a "probably" in my mind. People don't even have a nuanced understanding of their own culture a lot of the time but that doesn't stop them. It's just like, you don't need to know detailed writing concepts by name to say "I thought x was well written", for example. Any understanding of a story is a valid one. I just get really sketched-out whenever I hear people talk about other countries like they've got so little in common because I feel that contributes to creating the very atmosphere you and I are bummed exist. If you want to get a pal to watch some pretentious French drama are you going to tell them "you just need to take a brief history course before you can watch it" or "dude it's just like any other movie, relax"? Obviously there's differences but Powerman293 had a point talking about Blade. Being human is a pretty universal thing, isn't it? I'm getting way too philosophical for my own good now so I'll stop here but hopefully you get what I'm saying. That said, I think there are three main points being argued here, and I don't think our opinions are all that different. 1) Foreignness as a barrier of entry. 2) Knowledge as requirement for enjoyment. 3) Cultural commonality. Point one: we thought these shows looked cool, so we watched them. The foreignness didn't bother us. I think it is a mistake to assume that the majority of mainstream American viewers share this disposition. If they did, more excellent foreign language shows and movies would be mainstream. The foreignness, whether it's language-based or cultural, keeps most people from engaging with these shows in the first place. Point two: I concede that you're right on this one, so long as one is able to overcome the initial barrier of foreignness. Though, I'd argue that enjoyment increases as cultural understanding increases. Point three: Japanese culture is not so different from American culture that members of one can't understand the other. In fact, there's a huge degree of overlap. But I find that the more two cultures have in common, the more important the subtle differences between them become. Whether we like it or not, humans are "in-group"/"out-group" animals, and one group will find a way to differentiate themselves from another group, even if their differences are minuscule. It's a widely recognized phenomenon that two people with 99% similar viewpoints will argue just as fiercely over their 1% difference as two people with 100% differing viewpoints. I think that phenomenon applies to cultures just as well as it does to individuals. Regardless of our similarities, the average American will find cultural differences in Japanese media that alienate or turn them off. Should it be this way? Can it be changed? I don't know. Those are philosophical questions I don’t think anyone has the answer to. What I do know is we're lucky to possess character traits that enable us to see past our own culture's biases. But yeah, anyway, that's just my very long way of saying Kamen Rider rules and anyone who doesn't agree is dumb. (jkjkjk) |
09-23-2016, 06:56 PM | #3500 |
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To be honest as a long time anime viewer I can understand how people can find subtitles off-putting I've had incidents of the scroll being too quick where you don't have enough time to even read the dialogue,the font either being too small or a bad color where you can't see them or being too large and obscuring the image double bad points if the subs are an eyebleedingly garish color*looking at you TV Nihon* and the written subtitles being laughably bad broken English.
Plus the fear/annoyance that you'll miss a scene while reading the subtitles. |
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