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10-31-2022, 02:07 AM | #31 |
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I think that is both severely overstating this show and understating the franchise overall. Kamen Rider has done moral questions and allegories plenty in the past, and has many series with intelligent writing and messages. In fact those are usually messages created within the dynamics of the series itself, rather than just mirroring real life wholesale.
And of course it's wrong to judge by this site alone, but so far the Black Sun is a rider's analogue of BvS. Whether this film is good or bad, everyone decides for himself, but they talk a lot about him and he undoubtedly shook up the genre. Here is the same situation. Yes, at least the fact that almost everyone scored on Gits and discuss this show shows what a strong impact it made. Quote:
Even ignoring the moral implications of the ending, I find this version of Minami Kotaro quite unpleasant. He's unmotivated, lacks any personality or drive, and doesn't feel like a hero or even a human being. He's flat as a board and about as charismatic as one. He just goes through the motions, feeling like he's completely without agency. The fact that they played the original theme over him feels almost like a parody given the lyrics and tone.
The original Kotaro's optimism and hot-blooded personality were infectious. He treated every situation with the gravity it had, and was incensed by injustice and cruelty. He'd be the perfect personality type for this story, not the bland husk that we got. Again, this doesn't feel like it has anything to do with Black specifically. Kamen Rider Black was a hero of justice, Black Sun is just a prop. |
10-31-2022, 02:48 AM | #32 |
Stronger Than You
Join Date: Jan 2012
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Finally finished the show. And I'm of...Very mixed feelings about it.
So to get the things that irked me off my chest, as well as maybe getting some clarity about things that I might have misunderstood. I disliked how the Creation King was just an object. Yeah, he did some stuff, but ultimately, he was just a background item that characters argued about. Then the revelation that he has no will of his own? That just felt so odd, especially when flashbacks showed him turning a lab into a pile of body parts before he started to cry. I dunno. I also wasn't really feeling Kotaro. I get the Logan vibe they were going for (And I know this style of aged hero was done way before Logan. It's just the first example that came to mind ), but they didn't give him enough life. They lacked a strong reason for why he'd protect Aoi. Yeah, she had a Kingstone, but that was kind of it. He also lacked personality. I get that he's supposed to have basically given up on life and etc, but he doesn't have to be so bland. And the biggest problem I had was the ending. Black becoming the Century King and then being milked for Heaven, despite the series hinting that someone with a strong enough will could become the Century King without becoming a glorified cow? Then dying? Uh, okay. Then Aoi taking a page from Shadow Moon's book and training children to kill and basically becoming terrorists? Nawh, I'm not cool with that. I get that fixing one problem won't solve everything. That's what the ending was trying to get across in that the Kaijin are still being discriminated against. It doesn't fix that it's wildly out of character for Aoi to suddenly turn into a terrorist with a literal child army. Anyway, that off my chest, there was plenty I liked. Aoi, aside from her sudden shift at the end, was a strong protagonist. She literally lost everyone and kept on fighting, which is what I like to see. The themes of racism and prejudice are so in your face it hurts, but I'm glad they addressed it. The show made it very clear that hatred and bigotry prevails because the common man won't stand up to stop it. They'd rather duck their head and ignore it, and hope it goes away. Shunsuke's lynching for trying to stand up to them was a strong moment, and I'm glad it served for Shadow Moon's breaking point. I also really enjoyed the action. Very well done. Them using their torn off insect legs as swords is crazy. Honestly, this show was alright. It's key theme is hatred, and unfortunately, it's not about overcoming hatred, but rather, fighting hatred with more hatred, if the ending is any indicator.
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10-31-2022, 10:48 AM | #33 |
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Here I will not argue, but I will indicate that, as for me, the heroes of all these adult rethinking cannot be called good.
In fact why did we even need the character of Aoi to be the main protagonist? Why couldn't it be Minami himself tat was the champion for the oppressed and victimized? Y'know, like the original would have been. Quote:
I think it was all fluff to try and justify why Nobuhiko would want to become the new king, instead of using Aoi as he originally wanted, which really doesn't make any sense to me. Quote:
I also wasn't really feeling Kotaro. I get the Logan vibe they were going for (And I know this style of aged hero was done way before Logan. It's just the first example that came to mind ), but they didn't give him enough life. They lacked a strong reason for why he'd protect Aoi. Yeah, she had a Kingstone, but that was kind of it. He also lacked personality. I get that he's supposed to have basically given up on life and etc, but he doesn't have to be so bland.
"Logan-style" weary characters are capable of having a strong sense of motivation. In fact I was waiting the whole time for Kotaro to just explode, react in some freaking way to everything around him, and take a stand to do something even if it wasn't going to fix everything. But no, he just becomes a big stupid bug again and gets milked before dying. Quote:
Honestly, this show was alright. It's key theme is hatred, and unfortunately, it's not about overcoming hatred, but rather, fighting hatred with more hatred, if the ending is any indicator.
If you take the ending as a hyper cynical view that we're just doomed to kill each other forever and there's no such thing as true justice or peace, and that the only way to combat evil is to become evil and destroy lives, then it's kind of got a point in that it shows how this is all so ineffective. But what the fuck does that have to do with Kamen Rider Black? |
10-31-2022, 11:44 AM | #34 |
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Maybe, but it's better than being a Black Widow rider`s version, which could happen too. Quote:
Why the hell not?
In fact why did we even need the character of Aoi to be the main protagonist? Why couldn't it be Minami himself tat was the champion for the oppressed and victimized? Y'know, like the original would have been. Quote:
Kotaro really was the weakest link of this show. He spends 90% of it haggard and miserable, with no ill or drive to speak of. The few things he does he does because the plot needs him to. I genuinely never got what his "opinion" was on anything, even when he was young.
And why?" this is a question for the director / screenwriter / actor. Perhaps they were too eager to speak out. They may have liked Black, but not the original Kotaro. Or maybe the scandal with Tetsuo Kurata somehow even influenced the shown image. But to be honest, they could take Shin Ultraman's example and change the names of the characters, since they still don't look like their counterparts. Quote:
But what the fuck does that have to do with Kamen Rider Black?
The main character turns into a black grasshopper. |
10-31-2022, 12:46 PM | #35 |
Stronger Than You
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Location: nyet
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"Logan-style" weary characters are capable of having a strong sense of motivation. In fact I was waiting the whole time for Kotaro to just explode, react in some freaking way to everything around him, and take a stand to do something even if it wasn't going to fix everything. But no, he just becomes a big stupid bug again and gets milked before dying.
He reacted to things around him, but he always kept the same hyper-stoic air to him. I wouldn't say it made him come across as disinterested, but just disgruntled to everything going on. Quote:
Which is itself a sort of cautionary tale. We saw plenty of times, even a succinct little montage, that the driving force behind the continued animosity was the "fighting hate with hate." Those Kaijin killed an innocent human, so the humans killed an innocent Kaijin, etc.
If you take the ending as a hyper cynical view that we're just doomed to kill each other forever and there's no such thing as true justice or peace, and that the only way to combat evil is to become evil and destroy lives, then it's kind of got a point in that it shows how this is all so ineffective. The government is still corrupt, the Kaijin are still discriminated against, and those that try to fight on their behalf are indoctrinated by Aoi. Kotaro's mission of the Century King being killed and the Kaijin dying off is accomplished...Good luck everybody else, I guess? I mean, they recreated the intro. It's basically the same show but with a bit more violent
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10-31-2022, 02:26 PM | #36 |
I'm an agile cat.
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And why?" this is a question for the director / screenwriter / actor. Perhaps they were too eager to speak out. They may have liked Black, but not the original Kotaro. Or maybe the scandal with Tetsuo Kurata somehow even influenced the shown image. But to be honest, they could take Shin Ultraman's example and change the names of the characters, since they still don't look like their counterparts.
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The main character turns into a black grasshopper.
Man, Battle Hopper isn't even alive in this. This show feels like an American adaptation that thinks brief references to the original counts as a good "update." Quote:
The whole thing with the Kaijin doesn't actually make sense. They're man-made, but that's a secret. How is that a secret? Last edited by SPLIT LIP; 10-31-2022 at 02:28 PM.. |
10-31-2022, 02:36 PM | #37 |
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I think the first generation of Kaijin was created manually, the ones after were born. There are exceptions like the two Century Kings of course, or recent experiments like Aoi, but I think the majority of the Kaijin population was born and not made by transforming humans. |
10-31-2022, 02:48 PM | #38 |
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Posts: 43
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Well, I finished the series, so:
Overall, I kinda like it. I liked the designs, the choreography and gore were neat, the music, although repetitive, was nice. I don't have much to say on the stuff I enjoyed about the show. Now for the stuff I didn't like: The series didn't do a good job in the story-telling aspect of the series; a lot of stuff was left hanging on the air, it felt lack lustered in some aspects and other stuff downright didn't make sense. The whole thing with the stones, they didn't really explain the origin of them, or their function inside the kaijins since they can be removed and yet able to maintain their transformed state, etc. For the characters; even though most were OK, it made me sigh at the fact that Kotaro is a convictionless blank slate that only does what the plot drives him to out of seemly convenience. Aoi to me was the worst character of the series. I didn't care for her well being in any point on the series. Mainly because I do not enjoy being lectured by a whiny screeching teenager that doesn't know S about life or the world surrounding her and being a liability more than being useful to the story. The worst transgression was to make her (or at least the writers intention to make her) the main focus of the story while leaving Kotaro essentially on the sidelines. Also I find people are way too prone to forgiveness in the series, you see them at each other throats in one episode, and in the following one they're working together, thought I get they were only working together to achieve a higher goal, there wasn't a good amount of signs of mistrust between the characters while they were in working together. A particular one that made me rise an eyebrow is how easily Nick was forgiven, yeah we know in the end he has a good reason for wanting to become a kaijin, but Aoi and Kotaro didn't know (or they didn't seem to know) and he was forgiven just like that. As for the politics aspect of it, I didn't really mind it, but it felt very one-sided, sometimes preachy or sometimes literally beating you over he head with the message than actually trying to paint the situation in a moral grey. Even when in some situations the kaijins were in the wrong the writers seemed to try to paint them in the right. As for the other side, reducing the concerns that humanity might have towards the kaijin to just be a shouting match of obscenities and essentially be moustache-twirling villains or scum assholes. When there could've been more nuances in portraying on why having around other humans with the ability of turning into killing machines on a wimp is something a regular human would be afraid/opposed to. That being said, the anti-kaijin movement honestly looked more like controlled opposition since they shifted their rhetoric towards immigrants by the end of the series, because like it was said in the series at some point: "a new distraction is needed". As for the conclusion, oh boy... I know it sounds clich?, but it would've been more...hopeful or perhaps more proper if there was some sort of time skip and an adult Aoi was elected prime minister or some sort of high government official so she could enact the changes needed to ensure a better future for the kaijin, but NOPE, Aoi essentially becomes a terrorist leader and start recruiting children into the cause is the worst lesson she could take away from this whole situation. She essentially made a declaration of war in front of the UN. Not to mention that now the government wants to expand the military and the fact that a kaijin killed the former primer minister (though we don't know if that was revealed to the public or if his popularity with the people dwindle) is going to gather a lot of hostility towards the kaijin and possible support towards their extermination, she's getting herself setup for failure. TL;DR: I mostly enjoyed it, but there are things that could've done better and some other that stuck out like a sore thumb. Gotta say, that made me laugh
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10-31-2022, 03:19 PM | #39 |
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Man, Battle Hopper isn't even alive in this.
And it would have mattered if Toei had been promised that he would be alive. But all the same claims have appeared before in all previous adult remakes and even in the recent Shin Ultraman, which tried to follow the original much more closely. Black Sun is the fourth such adaptation of the riders and is not much different from its predecessors: the same depressive bloody drama with pretension, crumbling like a house of cards, if you think about it a little. As I wrote before the show aired: I understand that this may not be pleasant, but it is not clear how one could expect something else. I mean, it's clear that you can appreciate Black a lot more than Ichigo or Amazon, but did Toei ever claim to treat him in a special way? |
10-31-2022, 05:56 PM | #40 |
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This may be a moot point, but -
ONE Rider Kick. One Rider Punch. Le Sigh. This had a very “American” feel to it, in some areas, this was great, but the plot slowly unraveled and gave birth to plotholes. WTF was the point of the Kingstones, again??? Why did Aoi henshin (with a Belt with no explanation no less) JUST to keep the same previous form, instead of a Rider one? I wanted SO BADLY to like this. One Rider kick. This the Kamen Rider equivalent to Rainy Dog by T. Miike, just gets more depressing as you go on |
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