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12-07-2020, 01:40 AM | #101 |
take me to space
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I feel confident in saying this episode's climatic fight, with the frozen raindrops surrounding Kabuto and the worm, is one of, if not the most iconic scenes in Kabuto. I certainly still remember it vividly now, since the first time I watched it years ago!
Maybe this is just me thinking about what comes after in the show, but I do think the big emotional beats between Tendou and Kagami are most ideal happening early on like this. We got those first few weeks getting a rough idea of how this dynamic works, one being the super smug, super competent hero, and the other the more naive 'sidekick'. That dynamic probably isn't going anywhere quite yet, but this episode drives home that there is and will be more to it than that, I think. Glad to see Kabuto's had the chance to rock your socks off this early on! I want to just say that while I'm not super attached to insect motifs despite knowing their importance to the franchise as a whole... I think Kabuto is maybe the definitive modern Kamen Rider design. He's cool, sleek, and probably simple enough for a child to draw and still be identifiable. Also I probably say this about a lot of songs, but Full Force, the insert that first played in episode 2, is one of my favourite songs in the whole franchise. |
12-07-2020, 01:49 AM | #102 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
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Quote:
I feel confident in saying this episode's climatic fight, with the frozen raindrops surrounding Kabuto and the worm, is one of, if not the most iconic scenes in Kabuto. I certainly still remember it vividly now, since the first time I watched it years ago!
Maybe this is just me thinking about what comes after in the show, but I do think the big emotional beats between Tendou and Kagami are most ideal happening early on like this. We got those first few weeks getting a rough idea of how this dynamic works, one being the super smug, super competent hero, and the other the more naive 'sidekick'. That dynamic probably isn't going anywhere quite yet, but this episode drives home that there is and will be more to it than that, I think. Glad to see Kabuto's had the chance to rock your socks off this early on! I want to just say that while I'm not super attached to insect motifs despite knowing their importance to the franchise as a whole... I think Kabuto is maybe the definitive modern Kamen Rider design. He's cool, sleek, and probably simple enough for a child to draw and still be identifiable. Also I probably say this about a lot of songs, but Full Force, the insert that first played in episode 2, is one of my favourite songs in the whole franchise. I forgot something! --- A QUESTION I got so caught up in what was going on in this episode that I forgot to ask a discussion question! Sorry! This episode's got a couple different sibling relationships in it: Tendou and his little sister, and Kagami and his little brother. There are plenty of great familial bonds in Kamen Rider (except for dads and sons, because ALL DADS ARE DEAD... not counting Kagami's dad, as will be introduced next episode), but what is your favorite sibling relationship in the Kamen Rider franchise? Two rules: please don't mention anything from Den-O through Decade or Zi-O up; and please don't make a Specter/Kanon "sibling relationship" joke because you're better than that. Sorry this was so late! --- Anyway, where were we? Yeah, it really works, this weird grounding of Tendou and Kagami. Having these total strangers (basically) have to deal with this massive trauma of Kagami's... it's definitely a unique start to a friendship, this Trial By Fire weightiness. It was a real surprise to see the show hit this hard, this fast, but... Kabuto! Thematically appropriate!
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12-07-2020, 02:12 AM | #103 |
take me to space
Join Date: Sep 2017
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Quote:
This episode's got a couple different sibling relationships in it: Tendou and his little sister, and Kagami and his little brother. There are plenty of great familial bonds in Kamen Rider (except for dads and sons, because ALL DADS ARE DEAD... not counting Kagami's dad, as will be introduced next episode), but what is your favorite sibling relationship in the Kamen Rider franchise?
Two rules: please don't mention anything from Den-O through Decade or Zi-O up; and please don't make a Specter/Kanon "sibling relationship" joke because you're better than that. Philip's family issues with the Sonozakis was intriguing to start, but ended in a lame way in my opinion. I guess there's Hina and her brother, except her brother isn't actually her brother for most of the show and was just Ankh. There's Kiriko and Gou, but they both have much more emphasized relationships with Chase than each other. (Also Mach took on all the family-related drama by himself...) Even if Makoto wasn't a weirdo about it, I still don't find his relation with Kanon that interesting. ...Oh, but you know what was interesting!? The clone Specter reconsidering his evil ways because of the love he has for his sister, which he inherited from the original, and Kanon considering the copy just as much her real brother as the original as well. There's my answer then! Specter Clone #50 (give or take) and Kanon. |
12-07-2020, 02:27 AM | #104 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
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I'm actually struggling to think of that many sibling dynamics in Rider, let alone ones that are noteworthy!
Philip's family issues with the Sonozakis was intriguing to start, but ended in a lame way in my opinion. I guess there's Hina and her brother, except her brother isn't actually her brother for most of the show and was just Ankh. There's Kiriko and Gou, but they both have much more emphasized relationships with Chase than each other. (Also Mach took on all the family-related drama by himself...) Even if Makoto wasn't a weirdo about it, I still don't find his relation with Kanon that interesting. ...Oh, but you know what was interesting!? The clone Specter reconsidering his evil ways because of the love he has for his sister, which he inherited from the original, and Kanon considering the copy just as much her real brother as the original as well. There's my answer then! Specter Clone #50 (give or take) and Kanon. So I'm going to go with Yui and Shiro from Ryuki. Now, their plot was incredibly weird, and they 100000000% did not manage to land one of their biggest emotional moments (Shiro doesn't know what to do with his hands so he just ACTS HARDER to cover for it, no second takes on Ryuki I guess), but it's a show that bets hard on these weird nightmare children becoming questionably-functional adults while still needing that connection that sustained them in their youth... hard to say that, for better or worse, they aren't the definitive Kamen Rider siblings! (I think the Ryuki movie does a better job of figuring their story out, for whatever that's worth.)
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12-07-2020, 02:40 AM | #105 |
I have a problematic type
Join Date: Jan 2012
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I definitely agree that having Ryou come back this early feels really weird, especially since his disappearance was only hinted at in the previous episode. It absolutely feels like this episode should have happened later after Kagami has been more fully established. That said, I don't care because this episode is fantastic.
Everything with Kagami and his brother is so well done and the final fight in the frozen rain is definitely one of the moments that's always stuck with me about this show. The events may feel narratively too early, but it still gives us some good insights into Kagami. I'm not sure I agree with your read on how Kagami's story went down. I think he knew early on that Ryou was a Worm, he was just trying really hard to convince himself that it wasn't true. I think this is one of Kagami's best character traits and worst flaws. He's a guy who genuinely tries to believe the best in people. We saw it with Worm Ryou here and it will be a defining aspect of his relationship with Tendou. Kagami can definitely see the flaws in people, but he always has faith that they can rise above them and become better than they appear (or at least that they'll stop charging him for fish). Quote:
This episode's got a couple different sibling relationships in it: Tendou and his little sister, and Kagami and his little brother. There are plenty of great familial bonds in Kamen Rider (except for dads and sons, because ALL DADS ARE DEAD... not counting Kagami's dad, as will be introduced next episode), but what is your favorite sibling relationship in the Kamen Rider franchise?
Quote:
Two rules: please don't mention anything from Den-O through Decade or Zi-O up
With that option closed off, I'm really tempted to say Kotaro and Nobuhiko. It loses something because Nobuhiko is kidnapped/gestating for the first half of the series and totally subsumed by evil for the other half, but it's still a relationship that drives the emotional core of Black. We don't get much in the present, but there are always flashbacks set to instrumental Long Long Ago 20th Century. |
12-07-2020, 02:44 AM | #106 |
take me to space
Join Date: Sep 2017
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I went through all the shows in my head and I somehow legit forgot about Yui and Shiro, wow! I have to agree that probably is the most prominent of all sibling relationships in the franchise.
Episode Final gets their story better because it contains significantly less nonsense about how the Mirror World works (which is saying something because it still has plenty of that). |
12-07-2020, 02:55 AM | #107 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
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I definitely agree that having Ryou come back this early feels really weird, especially since his disappearance was only hinted at in the previous episode. It absolutely feels like this episode should have happened later after Kagami has been more fully established. That said, I don't care because this episode is fantastic.
But, yeah, a weird play for the show to blow off the Ryou story this fast. Really felt like it was going to percolate for a bit longer! Quote:
Like, I don't think Kagami thinks Ryou's a Worm, but I think he feels like Ryou's hiding something, like it's all too good to be true. He's definitely forcing himself to not ask questions, but I don't think it's until ZECT takes over that he really starts lying to himself about Ryou being a Worm.
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12-07-2020, 02:58 AM | #108 |
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I went through all the shows in my head and I somehow legit forgot about Yui and Shiro, wow! I have to agree that probably is the most prominent of all sibling relationships in the franchise.
Episode Final gets their story better because it contains significantly less nonsense about how the Mirror World works (which is saying something because it still has plenty of that). And, yeah, the motivation/backstory the movie comes up with for Yui's peril is a) cleaner, and b) something that makes her a participant in her own story, something the series mostly forgot to do.
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12-07-2020, 12:08 PM | #109 |
Standing By
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KAMEN RIDER KABUTO - EPISODE 04
Because chunks of this story are difficult to buy into. Kagami’s brother Ryou returns after a two-year unexplained absence, with zero explanation (he needed to get away?) and a ton of circumstantial evidence from years ago that points to him being murdered. But Kagami is so blinded by joy that he’s convinced himself that everything’s fine. Tendou sees the obvious, that Ryou is definitely a Worm sent to manipulate (or murder and replace) a ZECT operative, so he throws the info to ZECT with the hope that they’ll do what Kagami clearly can’t. A big part of this story hinges on Kagami’s grief and joy being so overwhelming that he can’t/won’t presume that he’s being manipulated, and… I mean, it barely works. The actor works his ass off to not make that self-deception read as ignorance, but man is it close. It’s not until ZECT tells Kagami that they’re going to go murder his Not Brother that he seems to begin to grapple with the truth, and it’s tough to buy it. The show gets away with it mostly from performance, but also because the point of the story isn’t the mystery, it’s the misery. I mean, of course Ryou’s a Worm. The reveal of it is, like, seven minutes before the end of the episode. It’s not a story about if Ryou’s a Worm, because duh. It’s a story about all of the rage that Kagami carries around, all of the despair he feels for losing his brother, all of the ways he’d give anything to have him back again. See, the Worm use Ryou specifically because all of that anger and sadness that Kagami feels, it gives them power over him. He misses the obvious, and he can’t protect himself. Even as they're about to replace him with a Worm, there’s this appeal to his need to have his brother back. The memory of his brother becomes more important than his own life, especially if the cost of surviving is the death of that memory. Kagami’s falling, and the only thing left to hang onto is a monster with his brother’s memories. And that’s when Tendou shows up. It’s a tricky episode for Tendou’s character. He’s got to take a back seat in this one, and nearly every time he tries to assert himself in the story it makes him less heroic. He’s forcing Kagami to move faster than he’s able, pushing him to resolve his emotional issues to Tendou’s schedule. There’s even less flexibility to Tendou than usual, and it’s making his friendship (his sister’s right, he’s totally Kagami’s friend) with Kagami even more frayed than when Tendou charged cases of mackerel to him. (WHO DOES THAT?!) Some of it is specific to Tendou, in a way that isn’t instantly likable (or even comprehensible), but comes together in retrospect. Kagami was obviously lying to himself about Ryou being a Worm, and Tendou’s got just zero patience for that. It’s clear what’s happening, and Kagami’s being willfully obtuse in not seeing it. But when Tendou sees how much the act of seeing Ryou again is punishing Kagami, how impossible the idea of killing what remains of his brother is, Tendou sacrifices himself to make Kagami see the truth. He takes a beating from Ryou’s memory. He could fight back, but he doesn’t. He won’t just murder the memory of Ryou. That would be effective, but needlessly cruel. He sees the strength of Kagami’s convictions (he felt it, in that earlier punch that he 100% had coming) and he respects them. This isn't about teaching Kagami that he was weak, it’s asking him to be strong. He needs Kagami to acknowledge that the memory of Ryou is dangerous. It’s a memory that will destroy Kagami, given enough time. Kagami can’t raise a hand to his brother, even the memory of his brother. But he can ask Kabuto to do the merciful thing and let Ryou’s memory stop haunting him. So we get this beautifully-done fight in Clock Up, where Kabuto fights between the raindrops, sparing Kagami the worst of it. The fight against Ryou's memory is invisible to everyone but Kabuto. There’s the detonation, of course, as the message to Kagami that it's done. The flames lighting up Ryou’s face, one last time. It’s a chance to say goodbye to his brother, one he never got before. And it leads to this final connection between Kagami and Tendou, which... again, this is the fourth episode. This is the sort of shit you pull in the final third of the whole series, not two minutes after the cast first meets. Insane to do this now. But, holy hell, it’s a triumph. Kagami is beside himself with grief. He’s mad at the Worm, he’s mad at himself, and he’s mad at Tendou. It’s hard to say what’s in his head, entirely, but I think he thinks Tendou must be laughing at him. Smug as ever in his superiority. He was right, and now Ryou’s dead for good. Stupid ol’ Kagami, screwed it up again. So he swears to Tendou that he’ll surpass him, that the days of Tendou being right and perfect, and Kagami being a punchline, those days are numbered. And Tendou stops, picks up the charred baseball that symbolized the connection between Kagami and Ryou… and throws it to Kagami. It’s Tendou giving witness to what Kagami’s lost, and the bravery in making that choice. The toxic memory of Ryou is gone, but the positive one can still be a part of Kagami’s life. But it’s also Tendou saying I’m Here. It’s an olive branch, a first step in a friendship. If Kagami, with that killer punch, wants to be better than Tendou? If that’s what’ll help him move on from this loss? Tendou will be waiting for that moment. Maybe even with pride. This is the first time that Kagami shows a potential to become stronger and Tendo wants to nurture that. He can't hate someone who punches him in the face with such sincerity (like that Gentarou and Ryusei scene). I think Kabuto hearing Kagami's pleas for him to stop and taking those hits from the Worm shows that he has a little respect for Kagami and pities him for letting an obstacle hold him back. He could've just destroyed the Worm, but he waits for Kagami to snap out of his delusion and accept that the Worm isn't his bro. There are two ways to deal with the reality of sadness. You can pretend it doesn't exist but the happiness is false and a lie and the person you become is no longer you, your life becomes hollow. Or walking the path of Heaven, you can accept that bad things happen and force reality to change through determination. And that's the whole concept of Worms impersonating people down to their memories, it's a theme for the show and I think it's interesting to explore how characters react differently to adversity. Yeah, the Clock Up effect where the rain is slowed down is awesome. Cronus' Pause had a similar effect but that was freezing time rather than slowing it, so the effect is quite different here, with the rain still being dynamic and moving and I think that's even more impressive. This show has great visuals and the fact that it was the first to be filmed in high def certainly helps. Quote:
Yeah, it really -- OH SHIT
I forgot something! --- A QUESTION I got so caught up in what was going on in this episode that I forgot to ask a discussion question! Sorry! This episode's got a couple different sibling relationships in it: Tendou and his little sister, and Kagami and his little brother. There are plenty of great familial bonds in Kamen Rider (except for dads and sons, because ALL DADS ARE DEAD... not counting Kagami's dad, as will be introduced next episode), but what is your favorite sibling relationship in the Kamen Rider franchise? Two rules: please don't mention anything from Den-O through Decade or Zi-O up; and please don't make a Specter/Kanon "sibling relationship" joke because you're better than that. Sorry this was so late! Shinnosuke is a responsible, honest cop who takes protecting people seriously and gives intense stares to any criminal who ticks him off enough, but he's often depressed and lazy with a stalled engine and he needs to get motivated to shift his brain in top gear. Gou is determined with his brain always in top gear, has a flair for spectacle and is loyally protective of his family, but his methods are reckless and risk hurting his family instead and he doesn't have any "brakes" of his own. They're also similar, since they both feel guilty for tragedies that occurred during the Global Freeze and want to atone for them. It's also a good reminder that you don't need to share blood to have a close sibling relationship.
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12-07-2020, 12:21 PM | #110 |
take me to space
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Hey, if we're counting not-actual-brothers too, then I'm changing my answer to Date and Gotou. Birth Bros Best Bros.
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