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10-03-2021, 10:42 PM | #421 |
Master Procrastinator
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 367
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Can't always tell, sorry. I'm bad at reading any meaning that isn't literal. Also bad at realizing the implication of what I am writing. I just have no concept.
I can do better at speaking, even though I can write better than I can talk. It's like I got the worse of both worlds. |
10-04-2021, 12:39 AM | #422 |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 1,290
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It might've helped the story if we'd understood Kaitou's backstory a little better (why did he think forcing people into a reeducation camp was better than having magic bugs injected into their brains?) via further flashbacks, but that just feeds into the bigger problem of trying to create all of this backstory for Kaitou -- and resolve it -- in about 40 minutes. More context would be great! Maybe in some earlier stories!
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I did! But Kai was (to me) commenting on vague endgame villains, while Narutaki is a vague full-series villain. Narutaki isn't really saying anything about how toku series can derail emotional threads with ever-escalating villainous schemes, and he's also been a total mystery for 23 out of 31 episodes. Different thing.
Don't know if you'd have patience for this, but I'd like to hear your responses on what I wrote before: Quote:
I have to probably stir shit again here that, a dystopian world where the citizens are forced to be nice or such is a thing that exist in a handful of media, like here and here. I don't know about the lesson of letting people being a douchebag, though obviously forcing them to be nice is a dubious and underhanded approach. T̶o̶ ̶s̶o̶m̶e̶ ̶d̶e̶g̶r̶e̶e̶,̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶s̶t̶i̶l̶l̶ ̶s̶o̶m̶e̶ ̶r̶u̶l̶e̶s̶,̶ ̶t̶h̶o̶u̶g̶h̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶d̶i̶c̶t̶a̶t̶o̶r̶s̶h̶i̶p̶,̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶e̶n̶f̶o̶r̶c̶e̶ ̶p̶e̶o̶p̶l̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶m̶o̶r̶e̶ ̶g̶o̶o̶d̶,̶ ̶i̶n̶c̶l̶u̶d̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶T̶o̶k̶u̶n̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶o̶n̶e̶s̶.̶.̶.̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶a̶ ̶p̶e̶t̶i̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶r̶e̶m̶o̶v̶e̶ ̶a̶l̶l̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶r̶u̶l̶e̶s̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶d̶i̶s̶g̶u̶i̶s̶e̶?̶! The advantage of letting people be assholes, it would be knowing to stay away and/or act rather than being unknowingly screwed up over two-faced acts?
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That being said, I kind of actively loathed what Inoue did with Newsuke here? He used to be a Cool Guy in-training who set off on this adventure with everyone to honor Yashiro's wish for him to protect people's smiles, but now apparently he's just looking for a world where everyone is already smiling to settle down in? It's like Inoue asked for a description of the character, and whoever he was talking to got as far as "Well, he can be rather naïve, and gets into his share of embarassing situations, but—" before Inoue said he got the gist of it, and, man, I mean he might have actually not known this guy was supposed to be Kuuga?
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The most complete non-wiki encyclopedias for Kamen Rider series (currently only found Ryuki and OOO's). |
10-04-2021, 04:20 AM | #423 |
New Member
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Evanston IL.
Posts: 95
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Not even only Kaitou, some people would also defend bad behavior and mindsets (either from themselves or from others including fictional characters), like to continue with their bad behavior freely and not think anything about it, as the bad behavior can be overlooked (or probably the blame will be deflected to others such as the victims) if they successfully defend it. They'd support the bad behavior and do everything possible to make others believe it's not happening and sweep it under the rug. Overall they want the benefit of acting unethically, without paying any price in terms of being shunned or punished for acting unethically; they want something without having to pay for it, which'd suits Kaitou who is a thief.
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10-04-2021, 09:30 AM | #424 |
I have a problematic type
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,416
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Quote:
Can't always tell, sorry. I'm bad at reading any meaning that isn't literal. Also bad at realizing the implication of what I am writing. I just have no concept.
I can do better at speaking, even though I can write better than I can talk. It's like I got the worse of both worlds. |
10-04-2021, 09:34 PM | #425 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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When I found out I was going to have to watch a story where Decade interacts with five teenagers -- teenagers with attitude -- I nearly ran screaming from this project. Luckily, CATWHOWALKS was around to help me see the ninja/samurai (who can say for sure) of Shinkenger as nothing to fear, and maybe even something to enjoy? We'll find out!
--- KAMEN RIDER DIE: Thanks so much for taking the time to be a part of this project! We're eventually going to be talking about... a Sentai show? Is -- is that right? Huh! Notes say it's a Sentai show. Hmm. Well, either way, we're going to be talking about a tokusatsu show, and I was curious about your toku journey. How'd you get started in this genre? CATWHOWALKS: My journey's a bit unusual. My parents are an usual breed of religious in that they are actual missionaries and as a result I grew up in the Philippines, where they aired sentai shows long before anyone in the US aside from Hawaii had heard of them. So as a tiny kid, 5-6, I get rather obsessed with one, which I now believe to be Bioman, as it's the one that most fits my memories and the timing was right. As an adult, I went to find that show I liked as a kid. I was aware that Sentai was used to make Power Rangers and that that show I watched was a Sentai. I couldn't find Bioman at the time and tried to find another Sentai in English but failed. A couple of years later, though, I discovered fan translations and went on to watch Kamen Rider, Ultraman, and many others. Even help fan translators caption Bioman, the very show I had watched as a child. KAMEN RIDER DIE: So the other tokusatsu franchises helped, like, fill the void of Bioman? CATWHOWALKS: More like they sparked an interest, and once I started watching stuff, I couldn't get enough. Bioman was the spark that started it all, but I had mostly forgotten about it until it started getting translated too. Then it got stalled and I got involved in that. It's still special to me, but it's nowhere near my top favorites. KAMEN RIDER DIE: For those other franchises, which did you feel most connected to? Do you think of yourself as a Kamen Rider fan foremost, or some other franchise? Or is it anything and everything toku, the more the merrier? CATWHOWALKS: I'd say Kamen Rider has become my favorite franchise. It was the second one I watched after Sentai. But I do try to watch a variety including a few niche ones. In fact, the first fan translated toku I watched was actually the live action Sailor Moon, oddly enough. But that's rather disconnected from the rest of my toku journey. KAMEN RIDER DIE: That Sailor Moon is one I mean to watch eventually. Never been into the comics or anime, but that's a Kobayashi show! And Ibuki from Hibiki's in it! Seems like it could have some real overlaps with my interests. CATWHOWALKS: I kind of think you'll be disappointed. I'm fond of it, but it's quite a strange animal. Gave some great toku actors their start, though! KAMEN RIDER DIE: Yeah, it... I can see it being not 100% to my tastes, but I'm definitely curious about it. Okay, so Kamen Rider's your main toku franchise. How'd that work for you? Where did you start? CATWHOWALKS: It was just the logical next one to watch after Sentai. Made by the same company, second most popular one, etc. Caught up with it right as Drive was starting. KAMEN RIDER DIE: Drive is so good! I just rewatched the second episode due to YouTube's all-powerful algorithm putting it in my field of vision. (Being coerced by machine intelligences to watch Drive feels very on-topic.) What did you think of Drive? Was it what you were looking for in a toku series? CATWHOWALKS: By then I had watched all of Hesei until then, but I was very much meh on it at first. Second half of the show made up for it, though. I had also just finished binging Gaim, so coming from that to the silliness of the first half of Drive was a bit much. KAMEN RIDER DIE: It's a tonal shift (car?), for sure. It seems like you have an enviably balanced toku diet. With that in mind, why did you land at TokuNation? Is it that it was about more than the individual fandoms you could find elsewhere? CATWHOWALKS: I honestly don't remember. I probably hit upon it while searching for subs, or heard it referenced elsewhere. It was actually the second such site I started following, although the first that I actually joined. The other one is dead now and I can't even remember what it's called. Still alive on Facebook, I understand. Tokunation is the only one I really care to hang around now at any rate. I've checked out some subreddit and other places, but nothing else is the same. There's something about the community here that I could stay away even when I intended to. KAMEN RIDER DIE: Same! I think it's a good crowd. Good people. Do you find yourself gravitating towards different threads, different discussions? CATWHOWALKS: Whatever strikes my attention. Your watchthroughs always get my attention, as does the one on the best toku ever made, Legend Heroes. Other than that, I just browse whatever, although I rarely commented. Right now I'm still mostly lurking. KAMEN RIDER DIE: I'm super glad that GrandComplete started that Legend Heroes thread. It feels like the type of toku that'd normally go unnoticed, but now there's active discussion. Plus, the folks watching it LOVE that show. It's some infectious enthusiasm. Is it just show discussion you're after? Do you follow/collect any of the merch for toku franchises? CATWHOWALKS: I am very much a penny pincher and while I've been tempted, haven't yet dived into that. Probably eventually. KAMEN RIDER DIE: Don't do it! Pinch those pennies! CATWHOWALKS: It should be safe to get a few T shirts at least! KAMEN RIDER DIE: There's no aspect of toku collecting that manufacturers can't make a money sink. You get a shirt on Amazon for $20, and then all of a sudden you're getting $50 P-Bandai shirts. I mean, I'm assuming that my brain sickness is universal? It probably is. Everyone's as bad at collecting as I am, case closed. CATWHOWALKS: I am a completionist by nature. If I got one, I'd need all the things. I keep buying DLC for games I either haven't played or are already done with just so I can have the complete set in case I even do go back to them. So yeah. KAMEN RIDER DIE: Yep, universal thing. We're all broken in the same places. I'm glad we have a forum to commiserate! Speaking of universal things! No one in the world watches Sentai, so I don't even know how to talk about something like Shinkenger. We're about to watch the Shinkenger episodes of Decade, which you said you had a connection to. Walk me through this series, just some broad strokes. Why was it one you felt strongly about? CATWHOWALKS: Very strongly character driven show. Sentai shows tend to be geared at a younger audience that Rider shows are and tend toward the silly and the big explosions and such. Shinenger still had those things, but was very much a drama about people. It's one I think you'd like to be honest. It also is heavily based on Japanese culture and I just find that interesting. As for the show itself, there isn't too much I feel you need to know. Just a couple of basic things. The Shingengers are an ancient hereditary order of Samurai. Their ancestors have been serving the family line of a feudal lord for more generations than most can count. When the bad guys, who are basically from an ocean version of hell, come in, the current generation quits whatever they were doing and joins the red ranger, the samurai lord. They use magic that consists of writing words which then become real. There's a bit more, but it involved a character from Decade you haven't met yet, so I'll save that for later. He appears in the Shinkenger episode before the Decade one and is necessary for context, but I'll mention that when the time comes. The Decade episodes stand alone fine, as it's just a minute or so at the end where the crossover happens, so no need to watch Shinkenger! KAMEN RIDER DIE: Thanks! I just checked their wiki page on Ranger Wiki to see if I needed to grab a corresponding Shinkenger episode, so I'm glad to hear I don't. It, uh, it would be a lot more difficult to source it currently! Shinkenger sounds genuinely cool, and I'm glad to have a fan of it to lean on for this part of Decade's adventures. Let's do some synchronized posing and go watch some Decade! --- KAMEN RIDER DECADE EPISODE 24 - “THE SAMURAI SENTAI ARRIVES” Tsukasa has arrived in a world with no Riders, but it’s not a world that’s undefended… thanks to the team of heroes known as Shinkenger! As Kaitou makes things worse in the background, Tsukasa is forced to grapple with the possibility that his mission to save the worlds of Kamen Riders has been pointless. With existential despair on one side, and a stolen Diendriver on the other side, how will Team Decade find a path out of this strange new world? KAMEN RIDER DECADE EPISODE 25 - “CORRUPT RIDER, ON THE FIELD!” Kaitou’s out of commission, the Diendriver is in the hands of a somehow-less-heroic-than-Kaitou monster, and Tsukasa feels like he’s got no reason to become Kamen Rider Decade again. Luckily, Natsumi’s insistence that Tsukasa deserves kindness bridges the gap between Sentai and Rider, leading to a Giant Sword-swinging victory over the forces of evil. The Shinkenger team resolves their differences with cookies, Team Decade reaffirms their bond with cookies, and, even more heroically, no one executes Kaitou. It’s a good day for tokusatsu! --- KAMEN RIDER DIE: Look at them! Look at our delicious, gooey new heroes. I know very little about Sentai. I've seen a few crossover style things here and there (the Gaim story with the weird train kids, a summer film or two, that one April Fools post I did about the weird train kids), but I've got almost no grounding in what a "successful" Sentai story even looks like. I don't know if any of this works as a Sentai story, as opposed to as a Kamen Rider story. So, first question: Did this work as a Sentai story for you? CATWHOWALKS: Not really. It comes across very much as a Rider story. They even ignored a major bit of Shinkenger lore just to make it not a Sentai story. The structure, story flow, everything is very much, let me introduce this other show to you people that don't already watch it. Which is fine, but it's very much a Decade story. In fact half the cast is missing. None of the villains are even present, except for a very brief cameo, and in Sentai, the villains are very much as much the main characters as the heroes are. For introducing this to people who haven't watched Sentai, though, it's very much a good move. KAMEN RIDER DIE: It had this weird element of... like, Decade is all tributes to shows that are finished. It's easy to do something that's a tribute to Faiz, because we have an entire Faiz season to analyze for themes and whatnot. It's easy to pay tribute to a complete work. Here, I'm pretty sure Shinkenger was still going on? And, yeah, Kobayashi wrote both Shinkenger and these Decade episodes, so I'm pretty sure she had an idea of what the Sentai show being featured here was About, but there's so much less clarity to me in what the Sentai stuff is adding to its end of the narrative. It's like watching a trailer versus watching a movie. CATWHOWALKS: Skinkenger was at Episode 20, so it was not even half done at the time. It's telling that Shinkenger ignores the crossover entirely except for about 1 minute of combined time and a single cameo background appearance in Episode 21. Except for the Squid Origami going missing at the end of 20, you can ignore Decade entirely when watching Shinkenger. Nothing of importance happens at all. A trailer is the best way to put it, I think KAMEN RIDER DIE: It's a story where I never really got what Shinkenger was trying to do or say. I got the aesthetics, but the characters made almost no impression on me other than very broad strokes. Do you think the characters themselves, the Shinkengers, were handled well? Am I just missing crucial context to appreciate their contributions? CATWHOWALKS: I think that they were consistent with their own show, but if you aren't already familiar with them, you definitely don't see them enough to get much of an impression of them. Takeru and Jii are the only exceptions, here. Especially Jii, who gets plenty of time for his fatherly/domestic side to shine. The sixth ranger, too, I suppose, but there's nothing much to him other than being wacky and over the top. KAMEN RIDER DIE: Jii was the Stay-At-Home Dad? Is that right? CATWHOWALKS: Head servant/stay at home dad, but yes. KAMEN RIDER DIE: I thought the little story they were telling with him and Takeru was cute enough. It's this thing about caring about someone enough to let them care for you. It's... yeah, cute. It didn't feel definitively Shinkenger, even though I couldn't begin to tell you what a definitive Shinkenger story would look like. This just felt, like, way too minor to be a reflection of the series' themes. Was it? Did it seem tied into what Shinkenger as a series was talking about? CATWHOWALKS: Jii's sacrifices and his relationship to Takeru are very much a running theme of the show and eventually ties into the main plot toward the end. They are supposed to be merely servant/master, but Jii has raised Takaru since childhood and clearly there's more of a father/son thing going on, as well as a team dad thing, that very much is not suppose to be there for a proper servant. That conflict of Jii's two roles is very much part of Shinkenger, although it rarely comes into the forefront this much. This is one of two brilliant ways they crossed over the two shows in a way the makes sense. The other is something the monster does that I'll bring up later. KAMEN RIDER DIE: Okay, huh! Interesting. That was the strangest part of the Shinkenger aesthetic, for me: all of the aristocratic overtones, the faceless servants (THE HEROES HAVE MOOKS!), the sort of push-and-pull of leadership versus family. Was that stuff sort of unique to Shinkenger? CATWHOWALKS: VERY much so. None of that is present in any other series, but is if anything much stronger in the Shinkenger series proper than it is here. The kuros are, I believe, based on traditional Japanese stage hands and are dressed like them. They are all of the stage acting as living green screen special effects and ignored by the audience. Their dress is also the source of the traditional ninja outfit, since one sneaky playwright fooled the audience by making one of the stage hands that the audience always ignored actually be a ninja within the play who suddenly assassinated a character. A lot of the rest is based in Samurai dramas. It's a VERY Japanese show, in other words. In fact, every single character in the show has a family vs duty arc at some point. Well, all but the sixth ranger. KAMEN RIDER DIE: Which is cool! The opening fight sequence activated all of the toku receptors in my brain, and that's without having nearly any affinity for Sentai. It was just so theatrical and grandiose! CATWHOWALKS: Yes, the opening fight sequence was quite fun. They do ignore the Shinkengers script magic entirely, but they don't use it all the time, so it's easy not to notice. KAMEN RIDER DIE: It also had a gag I laughed at for a whole minute, which was this mid-fight cutaway to Tsukasa: KAMEN RIDER DIE: I love how unimpressed Tsukasa is! CATWHOWALKS: Yeah, the whole bit with Tsukasa in the background is hilarious. He's just a terrible Kuro and doesn't really care. KAMEN RIDER DIE: He's like Yeah They're Fighting Monsters WHATEVER. It's so petty, which is maybe key for the Decade side of this story! KAMEN RIDER DIE: Our heroes, made with love. Except Kaitou, because he's a giant pain in the ass. But our heroes! I really liked the Decade side of things, way more than I did the Sentai side. CATWHOWALKS: Kaitou really does not deserve a cookie this arc. KAMEN RIDER DIE: True! But this story is really about Tsukasa, and Natsumi, and what it feels like when the world is telling your friend they don't matter. It's a fun flip of Natsumi's original arc, where she was more suspicious of Tsukasa's destiny. Here, she's sort of sick of everyone saying that Tsukasa doesn't help. CATWHOWALKS: This is what I was saying about this really being a Decade story. The Jii stuff ties in pretty well, but otherwise they are a vehicle for questioning the nature and purpose of Riders. If this world can do without Riders and be better off without them, where does that leave Tsukasa? Frankly I felt like pointing out to them at one point that it still has heroes, just a different kind, but there's still some sort of point to be made. KAMEN RIDER DIE: Yeah, it's a story that uses the absence of Riders to attack Tsukasa's sense of self-worth. Tsukasa is the one going through different worlds to help Riders achieve their potential, and then here's this world with no Riders and someone else stepped up. A lot of Tsukasa's identity is wrapped up in being Kamen Rider Decade, so he's uniquely vulnerable to an attack on his Rider personality. I thought this story had a very Kobayashi way of grounding Tsukasa's character a little more in the people around him, rather than his mission. The bonds of friendship are... not exactly something this show has really foregrounded, and it's nice (if unexpected) to have an arc about what Natsumi feels for Tsukasa, and how Tsukasa's heroism is about more than his powers. CATWHOWALKS: And the Sentai are uniquely suited to that role. They are all about teamwork and relationships and they don't need riders to win. It's a perfect framework to tell this particular story, even though most people would expect a more typical crossover. Which makes me appreciate more that they stripped down the Shinkengers to their bare minimum. They didn't need the giant mechs or the large cast of villains, or the script magic, because this is a Decade story, not a Shinkenger one, and those things would just distract from that. KAMEN RIDER DIE: For sure. It's also the story that helped me figure out what Narutaki is for? Thematically? As a villain, he's been an incredibly thin one. He just shows up, tells everyone Decade's a jerk, sometimes there's a giant monster, ONORE DECADE, rinse, repeat. He's a one-note villain. But then there's this story about no one but Natsumi seeing Tsukasa, trying to understand him, and it clicked for me. Tsukasa is the Passive Fan. He's a viewer of Kamen Rider, someone who works through shows and then moves on. Kaitou is the Transformative Fan. He pulls out what he wants from shows: themes, merch, ships. He's okay breaking it, because he is after something that means more to him than the packaged narrative. Narutaki is the Bad-Faith Critic. He looks at Kamen Rider as a franchise and sees violence, aggression, relentless marketing. Kamen Rider is Bad For Children. He's not willing to understand Tsukasa's gentleness, or sadness, because that would conflict with the assumption he already made. If this show is about the wonder and glory of Kamen Rider, its villain has to be someone who refuses to engage with it honestly. CATWHOWALKS: This the episode where I decided Narutaki is a total nut. He tells Decade it's all his fault, but clearly it's all Diend's fault. Decade wasn't even there! Before that I was undecided if he was really right, or at least had a point. Maybe he did at one point or maybe he didn't, but either way he's lost track of it completely by now and can no longer see what is clearly in front of him. KAMEN RIDER DIE: A lot of Narutaki's arguments here are revisionist history at best, and outright fabrications at worst. Like, I'm pretty sure it was Narutaki who let loose the apocalyptic Grongi in the Kuuga story? And the giant crab in the Hibiki story? For all of Narutaki's claims that Decade is only ever bad news for worlds, it's Narutaki who's actually deployed world-ending menaces? CATWHOWALKS: One fun bit is that thanks to Narutake, Tsukasa basically is playing the role of good monster here. Sentai often has a good monster story, and this is kinda it for Shinkenger. Radical believers can justify all manner of evil in order to stop the fictional greater evil. That's what he is at this point. KAMEN RIDER DIE: He's a very crazy dude. He's zero percent subtle, and I don't understand his motivation at all, but this was the story where I got why he's here thematically; what he's actually adding to the themes of this show. Kobayashi! Exactly as talented as I remember! CATWHOWALKS: I think that's a bit of an Everything is Jesus in Purgatory assumption, but I do agree about his behavior. KAMEN RIDER DIE: I mean, it's either me reading too much into Narutaki or accepting that Narutaki is a relentlessly dull and repetitive antagonist with no credible outlook. I am happier with the former! CATWHOWALKS: If that interpretation makes the whole thing make more sense to you, does it really matter if it's the correct one? What does "correct" even mean when it comes to interpreting art? And yes, I am aware that I am basically arguing against myself. KAMEN RIDER DIE: We all process art differently, is what I always say. No wrong answers! Speaking of processing things differently, I really liked how there was one clutch scene between Tsukasa and Jii, and it resolved two similar but different plots? KAMEN RIDER DIE: There're two discrete stories here, even if they're sort of using the same vocabulary. CATWHOWALKS: As I said before, that particular use of Jii is one of two brilliant uses of the crossover. It works well. Plus Jii being the dispenser of wisdom makes more sense that grandpa playing that role would. They may have similar roles, but Jii's more of a mentor and can state the truth far more effectively. KAMEN RIDER DIE: I think it's Tsukasa who's more the voice of wisdom in this one? He's the one who tells a self-effacing Jii that, actually, it's super valuable for Jii to be a Stay-At-Home Dad. It's Jii's unwavering support that allows the Shinkengers to feel like there's a reason for their fighting. The safety of the home Jii keeps gives them motivation to survive a fight. It's hilarious that Tsukasa is only able to say this to someone who is not a part of his support system... but that's 1000% Tsukasa. He gives Jii this big speech about Jii's value to the Shinkengers, and then teases Natsumi that she made her cookie too cute, and also the cookie tastes bad. CATWHOWALKS: Sorry, I misremembered who was speaking there. Either way, the parallels works well on several levels. It's both good writing and good use of the crossover potential and as you said, resolves several things at once. KAMEN RIDER DIE: But then the Tsukasa/Natsumi side is like the peer version of that routine, rather than the Don't Give Your Parents A Hard Time For Worrying About You version the Shinkengers did. It's an interesting twist, making the Decade one feel more about supporting each other, rather than the Sentai one's take on how you deal with your parents. I always think of Sentai as the younger version of Kamen Rider, and this story is, like, Exhibit A. Same plot, two takes on the same message. CATWHOWALKS: In fact, I do believe the target audience of sentai is slightly younger so you are right on that. And both themes don't come totally out of nowhere, which is often how less well written crossover come across. These are very much separate things from both shows that come together beautifully. KAMEN RIDER DIE: It's a story that really deftly navigated the needs of both shows. It's almost stupid how perfectly Kobayashi nailed some very tricky material. CATWHOWALKS: I think this plus the other thing I keep hinting at shows the writer knew both shows and was trying to do both justice. And did. KAMEN RIDER DIE: And all it took was Kaitou being a hilariously selfish asshole! KAMEN RIDER DIE: WHAT IS HE EVEN TRYING TO DO IN THIS STORY. CATWHOWALKS: He's at his best/worst in this crossover, that's for sure! KAMEN RIDER DIE: I love that this version of Kaitou is the next thing we get after his bleak backstory. CATWHOWALKS: To be fair, the squid origame is a priceless antique, powerful battle mecha, and sentimental symbol of friendship. It's a treasure in virtually every possible meaning of the word, to put it another way. Of course he want it to stupid levels. KAMEN RIDER DIE: I thought it was, like, their Yurusen. It's actually worth something? CATWHOWALKS: The origami turn into giant war machines, and the squid is part of the sixth ranger's personal mecha. He can't fight giant monsters without it. Kaito just halved their combat potential, essentially. KAMEN RIDER DIE: I also cannot believe this story didn't have a giant monster in it. When Another Diend (or whatever) was squaring off against the entire combined cast, I figured that was when he'd get giant-sized. Nope! CATWHOWALKS: And it's centuries old and was a childhood gift from Takeru. So yes, it's worth something. That was the lore issue I mentioned. In Shinkenger the monsters reincarnate into giant form when they die. It's called Second Life and they have no control over it. It just happens. I was irritated that they never even made up an excuse why it didn't happen here. It's part of their biology! I understand that having a giant monster battle would disrupt the narrative, but it still feels strange. Am I wrong, or is this the only Sentai/Rider crossover that lacks one in some form? KAMEN RIDER DIE: Every crossover I can remember had one. It's... sort of the main Sentai thing? That the heroes get in a combined mecha to punch a giant monster in the face? CATWHOWALKS: It's literally what put the Super in Super Sentai. The giant robots also are their biggest toy sellers. KAMEN RIDER DIE: It was very weird. CATWHOWALKS: It's another reason I say this definitely not a Sentai story. It's a Rider one. KAMEN RIDER DIE: Yeah, even the Another Diend summons are just monsters from different Rider series, like a Fangire. Also, Blade, who I will allow because technically he's an Undead by this point in time. The monster knows he is a Rider monster now. CATWHOWALKS: Well, really Blade was just so they could do Final Attack Ride. But I do want to know--where did the Gendou Rider get those monster cards? KAMEN RIDER DIE: My headcanon is that the monster's Henshin also mutated the cards into their monstrous counterparts. CATWHOWALKS: —Since we are bringing up the monster can I talk about Gendou Rider suit? I really love what they did with it. It's looks great and fuses the monster and Diend elements really well. KAMEN RIDER DIE: It nails my all-time gross-out feature, which is sticking eyeballs all over the suit. A+! Horrifying! CATWHOWALKS: This is also where the second brilliant crossover moment takes place. The monsters in Shinkenger come into the world through cracks and crevices, and Diend's helmet conveniently features a ton of those, so the monster summons mook monster from his suit. It's a brilliant moment, at least to me. KAMEN RIDER DIE: Oh, that's neat! I didn't know that! CATWHOWALKS: It's not a detail you are likely to catch if you haven't seen Shinkenger, but it's there. KAMEN RIDER DIE: The other tiny (?) detail I liked was how all of the summons and transformations in the first part were all from Kobayashi shows: Raia, Scissors, Den-O Liner Form... was there another one in the first episode I'm forgetting? CATWHOWALKS: Not a detail I would pick up on. I'm not as aware of the who is behind the different shows. But still a cool one. KAMEN RIDER DIE: Anything else from this story you wanted to touch on? CATWHOWALKS: The monster rider was the only thing, so I think we've covered it pretty well. Oh, one more thing, actually. Just to point out that the Shinkenger monsters are based on Yokai. Don't remember what this one is called, but the eyeball monster does show up a lot in Sentai shows based on Yokai. KAMEN RIDER DIE: He's basically their Spider Kaijin. CATWHOWALKS: Kinda. Although he does show up in other Japanese media. KAMEN RIDER DIE: Well, he's gross as hell, so I can see why they'd bring him back. CATWHOWALKS: It's always a different design, though. Lots of eyeballs always. KAMEN RIDER DIE: And speaking of Gross As Hell, we are about to move onto four straight episodes of SHOWA, a thing I do not truck with. My misery will be other people's delight, though, as we land first in the World Of Black/Black RX! Shadow Moon's here and everything, a thing that will hopefully either be cool to me, or will be explained by someone else as to why I should think it's cool. Either way, I am partially terrified as we continue our Journey through Decade!
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10-04-2021, 11:01 PM | #426 |
Alias: ZeroEnchiladas
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Posts: 2,574
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Having posted that I was watching this on twitter and a friend pointing out how they always forget this crossover exists. I feel like you two hit the nail on the head in terms of tone. It's very much a Decade story that's designed to introduce you to Shinkenger rather than be a true proper crossover.
It's also moments like these what with the emotional core surrounding Natsumi and Tsukasa this time, that remind me why I enjoy their friendship. Also Onodera got to be cool and do some Kuuga stuff! Like it wasn't like the spotlight was on him now type stuff, but he's much improved after the past four episodes where he was just sorta there. But hey, next time we move onto the only Showa Rider I've ever watched, Black/Black RX! This'll be interesting to watch. |
10-04-2021, 11:06 PM | #427 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
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Quote:
Having posted that I was watching this on twitter and a friend pointing out how they always forget this crossover exists. I feel like you two hit the nail on the head in terms of tone. It's very much a Decade story that's designed to introduce you to Shinkenger rather than be a true proper crossover.
It's also moments like these what with the emotional core surrounding Natsumi and Tsukasa this time, that remind me why I enjoy their friendship. Also Onodera got to be cool and do some Kuuga stuff! Like it wasn't like the spotlight was on him now type stuff, but he's much improved after the past four episodes where he was just sorta there. But hey, next time we move onto the only Showa Rider I've ever watched, Black/Black RX! This'll be interesting to watch. And, yeah, fun to see Kuuga! Not because anyone made him, even! It's just a cool visual, to have Kuuga team up with a bunch of Sentai kids.
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10-05-2021, 01:03 AM | #428 |
I have a problematic type
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,416
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These episodes have never really done much for me. Not because I'm not a Sentai fan (although I'm generally not), but because they really feel to me like the main premise was "We have six episodes to kill before the finale, what else do we have filming right now that we can chuck into two episodes of Decade?"
I like the idea that the show dances around a bit of what it means to have a world without any Kamen Riders, but it doesn't really feel like that ever gels into anything. Natsumi angsts over Tsukasa not have a place to belong, which is good, and Narutaki rants about Decade being a corrupting force, which is just more baseless drivel from him at this point. There is a bit of a nice resolution with Natsumi declaring that Tsukasa's home is with the studio, but that plot still feels relatively undercooked. Honestly, the whole arc for me feels kind of throwaway. It's not as bad as, say, hijacking an episode of Gaim to advertise a Kikaider movie that no one will remember existed, but it doesn't feel like it adds anything significant to the show. On the upside, though, the next arc is going to be a lot of fun as we take a look back into the past: the long, long ago 20th century. |
10-05-2021, 05:57 AM | #429 |
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Quote:
KAMEN RIDER DIE: I thought the little story they were telling with him and Takeru was cute enough. It's this thing about caring about someone enough to let them care for you. It's... yeah, cute. It didn't feel definitively Shinkenger, even though I couldn't begin to tell you what a definitive Shinkenger story would look like. This just felt, like, way too minor to be a reflection of the series' themes. Was it? Did it seem tied into what Shinkenger as a series was talking about?
CATWHOWALKS: Jii's sacrifices and his relationship to Takeru are very much a running theme of the show and eventually ties into the main plot toward the end. They are supposed to be merely servant/master, but Jii has raised Takaru since childhood and clearly there's more of a father/son thing going on, as well as a team dad thing, that very much is not suppose to be there for a proper servant. That conflict of Jii's two roles is very much part of Shinkenger, although it rarely comes into the forefront this much. This is one of two brilliant ways they crossed over the two shows in a way the makes sense. The other is something the monster does that I'll bring up later. t̶h̶o̶u̶g̶h̶ ̶a̶c̶t̶u̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶i̶f̶ ̶I̶ ̶w̶a̶t̶c̶h̶ ̶m̶o̶r̶e̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶a̶ ̶s̶h̶o̶w̶,̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶t̶e̶n̶d̶s̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶o̶n̶l̶y̶ ̶s̶t̶r̶e̶n̶g̶t̶h̶e̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶a̶r̶g̶u̶m̶e̶n̶t̶s̶ ̶I̶ ̶a̶l̶r̶e̶a̶d̶y̶ ̶h̶a̶d̶ ̶w̶h̶i̶l̶e̶ ̶b̶r̶o̶w̶s̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶a̶ ̶s̶h̶o̶w̶ ̶I̶ ̶h̶a̶v̶e̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶w̶a̶t̶c̶h̶e̶d̶ ̶y̶e̶t̶.̶ but probably I'd think the same as catwhowalks if I don't feel like the adaptation is faithful enough (Decade resorts to alternate universe and version of characters probably due to Joe Odagiri. so not real adaptation except for Den-O, albeit there are same actors like Hibiki and Missing Ace one), albeit crossovers usually have this problem of being more bare-bones, and prioritize what if a media gets paired with other media. So so far from the info here Takeru and Jii had father/son dynamic, and I can look more for it but probably won't spoil myself. But Die considers a probably harmonic dynamic as interesting here... BTW, I did explain to you about mooks before, but disposable army on hero side will be called red shirts (or fodders still work too, the term is a bit degrading though) as mook refers to bad guy ones. Quote:
CATWHOWALKS: VERY much so. None of that is present in any other series, but is if anything much stronger in the Shinkenger series proper than it is here. The kuros are, I believe, based on traditional Japanese stage hands and are dressed like them. They are all of the stage acting as living green screen special effects and ignored by the audience. Their dress is also the source of the traditional ninja outfit, since one sneaky playwright fooled the audience by making one of the stage hands that the audience always ignored actually be a ninja within the play who suddenly assassinated a character.
A lot of the rest is based in Samurai dramas. It's a VERY Japanese show, in other words. In fact, every single character in the show has a family vs duty arc at some point. Well, all but the sixth ranger. Quote:
KAMEN RIDER DIE: Yeah, it's a story that uses the absence of Riders to attack Tsukasa's sense of self-worth. Tsukasa is the one going through different worlds to help Riders achieve their potential, and then here's this world with no Riders and someone else stepped up. A lot of Tsukasa's identity is wrapped up in being Kamen Rider Decade, so he's uniquely vulnerable to an attack on his Rider personality. I thought this story had a very Kobayashi way of grounding Tsukasa's character a little more in the people around him, rather than his mission. The bonds of friendship are... not exactly something this show has really foregrounded, and it's nice (if unexpected) to have an arc about what Natsumi feels for Tsukasa, and how Tsukasa's heroism is about more than his powers.
CATWHOWALKS: And the Sentai are uniquely suited to that role. They are all about teamwork and relationships and they don't need riders to win. It's a perfect framework to tell this particular story, even though most people would expect a more typical crossover. Which makes me appreciate more that they stripped down the Shinkengers to their bare minimum. They didn't need the giant mechs or the large cast of villains, or the script magic, because this is a Decade story, not a Shinkenger one, and those things would just distract from that. Quote:
KAMEN RIDER DIE: For sure. It's also the story that helped me figure out what Narutaki is for? Thematically?
As a villain, he's been an incredibly thin one. He just shows up, tells everyone Decade's a jerk, sometimes there's a giant monster, ONORE DECADE, rinse, repeat. He's a one-note villain. But then there's this story about no one but Natsumi seeing Tsukasa, trying to understand him, and it clicked for me. Tsukasa is the Passive Fan. He's a viewer of Kamen Rider, someone who works through shows and then moves on. Kaitou is the Transformative Fan. He pulls out what he wants from shows: themes, merch, ships. He's okay breaking it, because he is after something that means more to him than the packaged narrative. Narutaki is the Bad-Faith Critic. He looks at Kamen Rider as a franchise and sees violence, aggression, relentless marketing. Kamen Rider is Bad For Children. He's not willing to understand Tsukasa's gentleness, or sadness, because that would conflict with the assumption he already made. If this show is about the wonder and glory of Kamen Rider, its villain has to be someone who refuses to engage with it honestly. I did say before that Narutaki is a radical believer that is so much focused on Decade that he overlooks everything. Also, other than blaming Decade even when there's Diend, Narutaki like you said, justifies all manner of evil, forgetting the fact that he himself has committed bad stuff in his vendetta against Decade. About Narutaki being bad-faith critic(or moral guardian?), I don't know if I'd fully submit to that interpretation, as Narutaki's focused on hating Decade only, but not any other Riders (though he probably had interpretation that way outside). If Narutaki had vendetta to every single Riders or superpowered being that fights, then that yeah it'd be fully about him against violence, aggression, and relentless marketing and overlooking the other stuff (but there are people who'd actually support those, like if people bash a hero for being a pacifist and wanting to see them brutally beating up any bad guys or such), or that's just more overt bad-faith critic portrayal of him. Natsumi as usual shows the difference between a jerk (still not innocent, but more like neutral) and an outright evil person in Tsukasa. Quote:
CATWHOWALKS: To be fair, the squid origame is a priceless antique, powerful battle mecha, and sentimental symbol of friendship. It's a treasure in virtually every possible meaning of the word, to put it another way. Of course he want it to stupid levels.
KAMEN RIDER DIE: I thought it was, like, their Yurusen. It's actually worth something? CATWHOWALKS: The origami turn into giant war machines, and the squid is part of the sixth ranger's personal mecha. He can't fight giant monsters without it. Kaito just halved their combat potential, essentially. KAMEN RIDER DIE: I also cannot believe this story didn't have a giant monster in it. When Another Diend (or whatever) was squaring off against the entire combined cast, I figured that was when he'd get giant-sized. Nope! Quote:
CATWHOWALKS: And it's centuries old and was a childhood gift from Takeru. So yes, it's worth something.
That was the lore issue I mentioned. In Shinkenger the monsters reincarnate into giant form when they die. It's called Second Life and they have no control over it. It just happens. I was irritated that they never even made up an excuse why it didn't happen here. It's part of their biology! I understand that having a giant monster battle would disrupt the narrative, but it still feels strange. Am I wrong, or is this the only Sentai/Rider crossover that lacks one in some form? KAMEN RIDER DIE: Every crossover I can remember had one. It's... sort of the main Sentai thing? That the heroes get in a combined mecha to punch a giant monster in the face? Quote:
KAMEN RIDER DIE: And speaking of Gross As Hell, we are about to move onto four straight episodes of SHOWA, a thing I do not truck with. My misery will be other people's delight, though, as we land first in the World Of Black/Black RX! Shadow Moon's here and everything, a thing that will hopefully either be cool to me, or will be explained by someone else as to why I should think it's cool. Either way, I am partially terrified as we continue our Journey through Decade!
How about the soccer movie one? Though the movie's still about Kamen Rider.
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10-05-2021, 06:10 AM | #430 |
Reiei
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 3,691
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I think the Shinkenger is just a fun episode, not really much for me to think of much. Funny though that in my first viewing of it, seeing the Shinkengers I was going: "Oh hey, it's the Power Rangers Samurai guys!" and then being confused when they weren't the Samurai guys. They did get me to check out Shinkenger back in the day, though.
Also, wouldn't Chinomanako Diend be the first Another Rider? |
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