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03-22-2020, 06:13 PM | #161 |
Showa Girl
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 9,064
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Hey, how about even more trivia? According to Ryuki's Japanese Wikpedia page (which I'm loosely summarizing here), when the show was in the planning phase, the television station apparently specifically requested a show that had very clearly defined heroes and villains, in an attempt to teach children the true meaning of justice, in response to the 9/11 attacks.
The thing is, producer Shinichirou Shirakura didn't go along with it, realizing that going that direction would basically be saying "the justice you kids believe in is fake, and we know what real justice is", which would just be problematic. He then proceeded to expand on Agito's theme of exploring that everybody has their own idea of what's right, this time tossing in a bunch of extra Riders so that, unlike Agito, viewers couldn't simply come to the conclusion that "Kamen Rider is right". At least I'm pretty sure I'm reading all that correctly? Someone correct me if I'm wrong. This is all news to me too (I only went and checked because I remember hearing the 9/11 thing once), but it does seemingly confirm what I've suspected forever, that Ryuki was the first Heisei show to call the Riders "Kamen Rider" in-series specifically because it wanted viewers to think about what that meant. Either way, yeah, that's something I learned recently too and lead me to massively recontextualise everything I felt about Ryuki and everything I thought I knew about it. It's why even though it didn't do much for me, I now have reams of respect for what it was trying to do and how it went about it, and what I said in the post just above is part of that. And just to connect it to something else in your post: knowing all this now actually made me feel super guilty about what I said about it being a show made before Kobayashi really nailed down her 'touch', and what made her writing special. Like, first of all the general direction and conclusion of the show were not even majorly up to hers, for starters; but second of all the context of the time really does do a lot to show why particular writers wanted to tell a particular type of story. All the stuff I loved about OOO and Toqger and Shinkenger and Den-O, about knowing what the right thing is but struggling to do that and struggling to live up to an ideal? Of the flaws associated with being a self-sacrificial saint; of falling into darkness when striving for the light; of losing everything important to you despite desperately trying to hold on... but still being able to come through the end of the tunnel just fine, with your altruism and your dedication to your loved ones holding strong against everything that tries to do it in? A lot of that is still present within Ryuki -- and the parts of it that aren't present, the parts that I felt were most important, aren't missing because Kobayashi hadn't figured it out yet; they're missing because they wouldn't be appropriate for this type of story. It's like... it still hasn't changed my opinion of what Ryuki means to me on a personal level. It's good to know why I feel that way - a story about different ideals of justice clashing and questioning what is truly right works well for a 9/11 fallout and the type of things they want kids to think about, but naturally that means it won't resonate well with me in the type of world I currently live in and the problems the modern day has presented me with. But what it has changed is that I now entirely get where Ryuki was coming from, and it gives me a hell of a lot more respect for it and everyone involved!
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03-22-2020, 07:57 PM | #162 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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Quote:
Hey, how about even more trivia? According to Ryuki's Japanese Wikpedia page (which I'm loosely summarizing here), when the show was in the planning phase, the television station apparently specifically requested a show that had very clearly defined heroes and villains, in an attempt to teach children the true meaning of justice, in response to the 9/11 attacks.
The thing is, producer Shinichirou Shirakura didn't go along with it, realizing that going that direction would basically be saying "the justice you kids believe in is fake, and we know what real justice is", which would just be problematic. He then proceeded to expand on Agito's theme of exploring that everybody has their own idea of what's right, this time tossing in a bunch of extra Riders so that, unlike Agito, viewers couldn't simply come to the conclusion that "Kamen Rider is right". Quote:
It's like... it still hasn't changed my opinion of what Ryuki means to me on a personal level. It's good to know why I feel that way - a story about different ideals of justice clashing and questioning what is truly right works well for a 9/11 fallout and the type of things they want kids to think about, but naturally that means it won't resonate well with me in the type of world I currently live in and the problems the modern day has presented me with. But what it has changed is that I now entirely get where Ryuki was coming from, and it gives me a hell of a lot more respect for it and everyone involved!
It's interesting to me that, in the immediate aftermath of 9/11, folks wanted clear-cut stories of heroism, might makes right and villains are punished. But, just past the immediate aftermath, there was a lot of art exploring things like the chaos of warfare, liberty versus safety, ideological conflict, etc. Ryuki's maybe ahead of the curve for that? Feels like they got there a little early, at least compared to American art. But, yeah, I can see those post-9/11 themes now if I'm looking for them. (I'm expecting some Sentai-ish themes to develop later, like The Power Of Teamwork and Our Diversity Is Our Strength and whatnot, I got ideas that I can't fully articulate that seem like they might come into play, I don't know, I don't watch Sentai, maybe all that stuff'll be unique to Ryuki if it comes to pass.)
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03-22-2020, 08:12 PM | #163 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: World of Ataru
Posts: 857
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To add on to the 9/11 connection to Ryuki here a article in english talking about it. https://tokusatsunetwork.com/2018/08...ction-to-9-11/
Growing up in post 9/11 world it kinda facinating seeing the before and after affect it had on Rider of all things. |
03-22-2020, 09:23 PM | #164 |
The Immortal King Tasty
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Every diner you've ever been to.
Posts: 3,833
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It's probably not a bad thing to have in mind while watching the series, either though. Quote:
To add on to the 9/11 connection to Ryuki here a article in english talking about it. https://tokusatsunetwork.com/2018/08...ction-to-9-11/
Winding it back to the Showa era with more historical trivia I only learned recently, the original Kamen Rider generally avoided being described as fighting simply for the nebulous concept of justice, but rather the specific cause of human freedom. This, too, was apparently a conscious decision since even the Nazis, whose fascistic dogma was of course a huge inspiration for bad guy groups like Shocker, would tell you they're in the right. This uh- this conversation ended up getting pretty deep all of a sudden, huh? Man, hard to believe we're barely past Raia's introduction. Sorry if I'm making things a little heavy!
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03-22-2020, 10:38 PM | #165 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: World of Ataru
Posts: 857
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This also called back to in the epilouge of Wizard had Tsukasa proclaming that "someone" said that Kamen Riders aren't fighting for justice but rather humanities freedom. So this ideal is still carried over in the new shows as well
Last edited by GrandComplete; 03-22-2020 at 10:44 PM.. |
03-23-2020, 03:51 AM | #166 |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 1,290
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I know there are lots of comments before, but not to be attention-seeking, can you also check my replies before?
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every cutaway to Kitaoka gloating over his deception is like a knife in the heart. even he, a brilliant attorney, couldn’t frame Shinji for this murder, I feel like we don’t know each other at all.) The resolution, with Shinji being so glad that Goro’s alive and so glad he didn’t murder him, it’s very sweet and welcome. I like that Shinji’s so caring that he didn’t think to want to murder Kitaoka (reasonable!) until after he was relieved that Goro was alive. But I’m not sure if the beginning part of the story, the shell-shocked Shinji stuff, I’m not sure that works as well as the conclusion. Just a little hard to forget that Kitaoka is (beautifully, hilariously, gloriously) tricking him.
All because of the phone signal's fault. But can we also talk on how Goro, despite serving as Kitaoka's contrast before in morality, agreeing with him to do morally questionable things here to ruin someone's life? Probably you think that the resolution is too easy for the characters? Like it's too simple that they just have Shinji bump to Kitaoka in some place, therefore seeing Kitaoka as the actual Zolda and Goro being alive. The character part is really conveyed well here tho. Quote:
So great to have Kitaoka back, though, and I love how his plan is yet again Maybe Shinji Will Get Eaten By His Monster. It’s kind-of a thing running through this episode, that these dudes who like to paint themselves as killers, ready to go all pro ice on another Rider, they maybe don’t actually have the stomach for it. Kitaoka keeps trying to get Dragreder to finish Shinji off, and Quarter (not in this one a lot!) sort-of has Ren’s number re: probably not a killer. Even Scissors, who’s the only Rider yet to get killed onscreen, his contract monster is really the one who finishes him off. Could Ren really kill someone? I like that the show leaves that question hanging. It’s cool to have Ren’s version of himself be challenged by Yui and Shinji’s version of him, their belief maybe overcoming his self-deception.
Well yeah, the reason Ren ran away from previous episode, being a Rider in this series means detaching your humanity. And true Ren didn't technically kill Scissors but Volcancer did. Tezuka wants to crack that facade of Ren. And the end of episode showed that side of him somewhat with him not running away again. What do you mean by "Yui and Shinji’s version of him"? But I also have to ask, battle wise (I REALLY want to know about this!!), how did Knight's Final Vent to Raia went out? Did it miss, did it only scrape Raia? etc.? And even if it hit him, how did Raia survive? Is it due to Ren not being able to kill someone that he unconsciously holds back his Final Vent too like Raia?? (but his Final Vent penetrates someone's full body...) I find it satisfying that Reiko vandalizes Kitaoka's photo....and him being totally in rage Last edited by DreadBringer; 03-23-2020 at 04:01 AM.. |
03-23-2020, 05:00 PM | #167 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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All because of the phone signal's fault. But can we also talk on how Goro, despite serving as Kitaoka's contrast before in morality, agreeing with him to do morally questionable things here to ruin someone's life?
Probably you think that the resolution is too easy for the characters? Like it's too simple that they just have Shinji bump to Kitaoka in some place, therefore seeing Kitaoka as the actual Zolda and Goro being alive. The character part is really conveyed well here tho. I actually thought the resolution was the strongest part of the story. It all really came together in that lobby. Quote:
Kitaoka plans to defeat other Riders isn't directly fighting him, which adds a variety on how to defeat Riders besides good-ol TATAKAE. This plan is foiled by Yui who shields him when Dragreder tried to eat him. Don't you think this moment is quite bizzare (will be important later, but as for now with no spoilers) that her presence can repel monsters?
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Well yeah, the reason Ren ran away from previous episode, being a Rider in this series means detaching your humanity. And true Ren didn't technically kill Scissors but Volcancer did. Tezuka wants to crack that facade of Ren. And the end of episode showed that side of him somewhat with him not running away again. What do you mean by "Yui and Shinji’s version of him"? But I also have to ask, battle wise (I REALLY want to know about this!!), how did Knight's Final Vent to Raia went out? Did it miss, did it only scrape Raia? etc.? And even if it hit him, how did Raia survive? Is it due to Ren not being able to kill someone that he unconsciously holds back his Final Vent too like Raia?? (but his Final Vent penetrates someone's full body...)
For Knight's Final Vent, I think you're right, in that I don't think Ren really wanted to kill Quarter. He's just not that guy, which is what a lot of this last story was about to me. I think he held off, didn't really give it his all. Maybe there's more to it than that, but that's how I read it. Quote:
Or maybe I just like thinking more about Kitaoka? Could be!
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03-24-2020, 11:39 AM | #168 |
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Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 1,290
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I don't know if I'd describe Goro that way? There're limits, but I don't think for a second that Goro would choose Shinji's mental well-being/possible monster devourment over Kitaoka's need to eliminate his Rider competition. That seems like an easy choice for Goro. Plus, like, tricking Shinji was hilarious.
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The Yui and Shinji thing, it's about how they see Ren versus how he wants them to see him. Ren wants everyone to know that he's a killer, that he's going to do whatever it takes, brood brood brood MOTORCYCLE. But, like, Shinji and Yui don't really buy that? Yui thinks he's better than that, and Shinji wants to see him as someone who just needs a friend to show them a better way. I think they want to treat him as Not A Killer, so he'll stop thinking of himself as A Killer.
For Knight's Final Vent, I think you're right, in that I don't think Ren really wanted to kill Quarter. He's just not that guy, which is what a lot of this last story was about to me. If you talk about Ren holding back, so that somehow he can hold himself in his Final Vent attack so that the tip of his Sword Vent won't impale his opponent? (Keep in mind his Final Vent is him wrapping himself in Darkwing who transforms into a drill, and using his Sword Vent as a tip to pry them open). Quote:
There's shades to that, though. I think some of it is personal offense (HOW DARE THEY, etc.) and some of it is that his scheme blew up in his face, but I think there's more going on. You could read more into it, if you want. I think there's an element of them all teaming up against him that hurts him, that he doesn't really like to see people be kind, since that means (by default) he's being unkind. I don't think Kitaoka sees himself as some sort of manipulative asshole. He just thinks of himself as playing the game better than these naive dopes. When cunning people like Reiko and In It To Win It types like Ren are telling him he screwed up, I think that's going to hurt.
Last edited by DreadBringer; 03-24-2020 at 11:46 AM.. |
03-24-2020, 08:44 PM | #169 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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Quote:
Like my paragraph above, something I wanna see in the discussion is like this; looking deeper into a seemingly minor moment and making sure other people to know about these topics too. I think he does see himself as an asshole where he gloats to Shinji about his abilities and how he frees an evildoer when letting him ride his car in ep. 7 and him mocking Ren in ep. 10 where he thinks his purpose is naive while gloating about caring only for yourself (a common scumbag trait) and be stronger because of that. Also Ren outright calls him an asshole multiple times and he brushes it off, also pointing out him being asshole is none of Ren's business. Like you say for Ren viewing himself as a killer before, Kitaoka also adopts that mindset being a Rider (do whatever it takes, etc.), to an even nastier degree that Ren is sick of him. For the photo though, it's simply Kitaoka not taking rejection well, he's is truly in love with Reiko btw.
As always, thanks for the fun thoughts! Sorry I couldn't give more, but I am top to bottom burned out today. A million shipping and payment questions from subscribers at work, and aborted effort on a new Point Of Sale system. Pretty much need to play Animal Crossing for a hot minute and then collapse into bed.
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03-26-2020, 07:21 PM | #170 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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MASKED RIDER RYUKI EPISODE 15
This one was... fine? Didn't totally click with me, and I'm not sure why that is. Didn't do anything wrong, but, I don't know. Just wasn't feeling this one. (Also, hey, sorry it's been a second. My stores are closed to the public, which means we've got to do a lot more online orders for shipping and delivery, which is basically a 24/7 job right now. Orders come in at weird hours, everyone's got questions, the whole comics industry is in upheaval, it's a lot. It's a lot. The last few days have been, like, double work. Not a lot of time to even look at the boards.) The stuff that I thought worked great, that did totally click with me, it's all of the Knight/Quarter stuff. I just, I really like how they're playing Ren's part in the story, as a guy who's trying so hard to be a friendless bad-ass that he's going to get himself killed for no good reason. That thing where he's just picking fights with anyone so that he can turn off the part of his brain that wants to be kind, that wants to have friends, to isolate and punish himself into becoming the person who can kill other Riders, I love that story. It's moody without being bleak, it's playing around with the Dark Hero trope, and it creates a very unpredictable version of Ren. I kind-of love how you can't tell what dumb/weird/mean/sad thing he's going to do next. It helps that Tezuka's a big part of Ren's story. I love how he's, like, Ren's sponsor, trying to get him to quit being Kamen Rider I'm A Loner Dottie A Rebel and start being a healthy person who might actually survive these Rider battles. And it's, man, it's not like Tezuka has to be that clever! Ren sincerely just needs someone to talk to, and Tezuka's a guy who gets the stakes of what's going on, works in the same field as Ren (murdering monsters, an essential business), and has an insistence that never becomes too forceful. It's like water, smoothing stone over time. Tezuka just needs to keep letting Ren know that someone cares about him, and sees the lies he's telling himself, and it feels like a nicely humane solution to Ren's... just his whole Being Ren thing. (Dude is just a bundle of self-destructive tendencies and unprocessed grief.) I like it, all of the Knight/Quarter stuff. It's a richly dramatic storyline. The main Ryuki one for this episode, though, yeah, just not feeling it. And, y'know, I love me some Ex-Aid, so a bunch of gamers getting killed thanks to the machinations of Kamen Rider Poor Man's Genm, seems like it should be right up my alley. Especially with the whole text of their battles being This Is Just Like What's Happening With The Masked Riders. (Thank you, Yui! Figured that one out on my own!) On paper, it all works. It's thematically resonant, and it echoes one of my favorite Kamen Rider series. But I thought it was fine, nothing more. Not bad, not at all, but I didn't really care much about what was happening, the case Shinji and Yui were investigating. (Also, Yui gets a job at ORE, because this show has two workplaces when it should really only have one. Clunky storytelling, but at least Yui's more in the mix.) The smarmy gamer assholes don't make much more of an impression than the beginning of this sentence, so I didn't really care why they were killing themselves. It's cool that there's a new Rider, and the fight between Ryuki and Poor Man's Genm was neat (I love that Poor Man's Genm has his driver in his shoulder, that's super unique), but the escalation in this story didn't feel that solid to me. I guess I mostly didn't care if a bunch of nerds want to have a Mortal Kombat fight club or whatever. The stakes, I didn't really feel into them. It was an alright story but, beyond that final fight with Ryuki and Poor Man's Genm, I was mostly checked out of it. It's really the Ren/Tezuka stuff that popped this time out. They've got an undeniably compelling dynamic. More of them, please!
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