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02-19-2021, 05:35 PM | #51 |
I have a problematic type
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,410
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Yeah, I think Den-O works well with this structure; I have no problems with it. Coming out of Kabuto, in particular, it's nice to see the monsters having more to do than just showing up out of nowhere to randomly rampage into the hero's path.
If I have any issue with the Den-O formula, it's that it does get repetitive when you get it several years in a row. And that's not Den-O's fault. |
02-19-2021, 05:41 PM | #52 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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Quote:
Den-O is the show that shifted the monster attacks to being the A plot. There is a person, that person is being stalked by a monster, the Kamen Rider gets involved in that person's story. Anything else - ongoing storylines, character development, changes in the status quo - those all happen off in the B plot. I find that the Den-O style shows tend to feel more episodic (or maybe bi-episodic?) then shows like Faiz or Kabuto where it felt like more elements carried across multiple episodes. It's not necessarily a bad change, but I generally like having the show be a bit more serialized. At best, the case of the fortnight format can work really well, like it does in W. At worst, it can feel like important elements get sidelined for awhile, like that stretch of Fourze where Kengo almost disappears because the show wants to spend all of its limited B plot time on Ryusei.
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Anyway, yeah, as Switchblade said, a whole lot of Rider shows would go on to crib Den-O's basic structure, and while I think I've made it abundantly clear by this point that I don't have an issue with the monster plots being... er, well, the bonus content in an episode, you might say, there's a cohesion to how Den-O handles things that I'm very much fond of.
Like, a huge part of how much I love Wizard is simply how much comfort I find in the whole Phantom/Gate routine, for very similar reasons to what you laid out here. I never got tired of this formula the way a lot of people did because it just works for me so darn well. I adore when a Kamen Rider's chief motivation for an episode is as humble as helping one person. Quote:
I think reducing the story to B plot actually works in Den-O's favor. People generally don't renown Den-O for its story. There is a story, it's there and the show revolves around it. But most people come to Den-O for the Imagins, the comedy, the climaxes, the Ore Sanjous and the Ore No Hissatsu Waza Part Two!s, you know? Den-O is that kind of show. All the cool stuff happens in the action and the character interactions. Maybe that's why Den-O can easily fit in to crossovers since the content is kind of irrelevant as long as Imagins can do their thing.
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The DenLiner’s battle mode: I can certainly see why a lot of people back in the day (and a few today) thought this show was too much more like Super Sentai than Kamen Rider. Along with a few other things (for now, they only thing I’ll call attention to is the bad guys being suit-only characters voiced by Anime VAs).
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02-19-2021, 06:39 PM | #53 |
I have a problematic type
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,410
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That's fine. With a few exceptions, I'm pretty sure it's just the same CGI stock footage every time anyway.
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02-19-2021, 06:48 PM | #54 |
Showa Girl
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 9,064
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Funny thing is, as someone who feels the mechs are the least good part of Sentai? I tend to like a lot of Rider mechs. It's probably because since they're one product amongst many rather than the bread and butter of the line they're not as prominent and sink into the background more, making them feel more special when they do show up. And then you've got this case, the Den-Liner, where it's just an extension of the show's main setting and draw! Like... I dunno, the battles with the CGI Den-Liner aren't great, but I can't bring myself to dislike it. It's just kinda dumb and fun
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02-19-2021, 07:16 PM | #55 |
The Immortal King Tasty
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Every diner you've ever been to.
Posts: 3,833
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The bottom line is that it's good to see the Den-Liner play an active role in battles. It's one more way Den-O loops everything into everything else, so even though I was never a huge fan of the scenes themselves, I honestly deeply appreciate the decision to do them. The Den-Liner is a setting where emotions can happen, a tool that can drive the plot mechanically, and a weapon in the hero's arsenal during fights. That's seriously a great thing in my opinion. Really love the Den-Liner!
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02-19-2021, 10:10 PM | #56 |
Ex-Weather Three leader
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,508
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FYI Momotaros is based off the Japanese folklore Momotaro(which translates to peach boy), a story of a boy born from a gigantic peach from who knows where that drifted down a stream and picked up by an elderly couple Kal-El style. Boy grew up and later being fed up with the oni trying to mess up their land he went, "Screw them onis, I'mma kick their arses." and went on an epic journey of asskicking towards Onigashima, an island where the onis dwelled. With the help of a dog, monkey, and a pheasant, Momotaro bumrushed the area, kicked some oni ass, got some loot, and lived happily ever after. That is the gist of it.
Design-wise momotaros is based off the oni from this story, while Den-O Sword Form is based off of Momotaro. The compound eyes symbolize the peach that split in two when Momotaro was born and the red chest armor is I believe is supposed to resemble the jinbaori that Momotaro is commonly known to wear in the story when illustrated or depicted in media. And that is also why when the Denliner goes guns blazing part of it transforms into a dog, monkey, and a pheasant. Last edited by Sunred; 02-19-2021 at 10:23 PM.. |
02-19-2021, 10:20 PM | #57 |
I got nothing
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 148
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Also regarding Momotaros’ design is the fact that you can see “MOMO” written on him in various locations like the arms and legs
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02-19-2021, 10:47 PM | #58 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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Quote:
FYI Momotaros is based off the Japanese folklore Momotaro(which translates to peach boy), a story of a boy born from a gigantic peach from who knows where that drifted down a stream and picked up by an elderly couple Kal-El style. Boy grew up and later being fed up with the oni trying to mess up their land he went, "Screw them onis, I'mma kick their arses." and went on an epic journey of asskicking towards Onigashima, an island where the onis dwelled. With the help of a dog, monkey, and a pheasant, Momotaro bumrushed the area, kicked some oni ass, got some loot, and lived happily ever after. That is the gist of it.
Design-wise momotaros is based off the oni from this story, while Den-O Sword Form is based off of Momotaro. The compound eyes symbolize the peach that split in two when Momotaro was born and the red chest armor is I believe is supposed to resemble the jinbaori that Momotaro is commonly known to wear in the story when illustrated or depicted in media. And that is also why when the Denliner goes guns blazing part of it transforms into a dog, monkey, and a pheasant.
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02-20-2021, 05:35 AM | #59 |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 1,290
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KAMEN RIDER DEN-O EPISODE 2: “RIDE ON TIME”
One of the things that led to me falling in love with the Kamen Rider franchise is its emphasis on helping people. Not defeating villains, or detonating monsters (although those could be a means to an end), but trying to effect a positive change in even a single life. That’s a real Phase 2 Heisei thing, you know? Not that the Phase 1 shows lacked it, but it was what the Phase 2 shows were about, structurally. In Ex-Aid, the only way to weaken a Bugster is to find out what stress the monster is targeting, and find some way to address it. It’s a show about healing people psychologically, and since it was my first Kamen Rider show, I’ve always thought of that approach as quintessential. Going through all these Phase 1 shows where people are mostly physically imperiled by a monster, and saving them is mostly as straightforward as detonating a monster, it’s had me digging a little deeper sometimes to find what I’m looking for. There are much more legitimate life problems other than just being saved or not. The view of heroic being only about saving lives can be callous towards anyone's problems as long as they live and not get killed, and while obviously saving others is a good thing to happen, performing heroic deeds is much more than only that, saving is only a part of it, but neglecting the other part isn't complete heroic deeds; And regarding "saving people's lives", there's still some questions, like what if you save someone from immediate danger by plunging them into a different sort of danger without their prior consent? Or like, you harmed and/or violated a person in order to save him/her from danger? What I said is aimed to someone who thinks characters like ideal heroes such as Eiji or anti-heroes such as Kaito as exactly similarly heroic because limiting hero definition as just anyone that can actually save people in need and treating what they do it for (money, recognition, etc.) or any character flaws as something that doesn’t matter, as long as they can save people. Which means that definition only takes "save people" into account and applies to my lecture here, as in KR mostly anyone on protagonistic side regularly kill monsters that attack humans. Quote:
You’d get some stories with emotionally-damaged guest-stars, of course. That Kuuga one with the kid who can’t go home again. The Agito story where Gills teaches a kid to not run from pain. Keiko from Faiz. (Usually kids! Japan’s not doing great with youth counseling, I guess! They should maybe not be entrusting the emotional development of a generation to pretty boys who detonate monsters! It’s not technically their skill-set!) It’s all stuff that focuses in on the Kamen Rider as a protective force, as someone concerned with making sure one person isn’t living a life of fear and misery, but the monster is rarely about that. It’s a little character study that ends with a monster getting detonated, but that’s oftentimes tangential to the emotional stakes. You can weave them together thematically, but the plot is usually Something Emotional that ends with a monster’s demise.
So you finally admit it here that "Japan's not doing great with youth counseling", from what I know before, you excuse the kid's behavior because of them being kids and "there are worse kids than those". And well yeah, a good number of kid is portrayed like that on media, not only Japan thing. Actually, if you excuse those behaviors and not reprimand them, that's the birth of a rotten individual when adult. I mean like, even if they're not threatening yet as a child, children of ruthless dictators are often even more twisted and psychotic than their parents. And like I said above, KR is not the only media to do this, and I think this is audience influence, but probably, for the petition to making sure that one person isn't living a life of fear and misery, the audience are too focused on a few media who shows terrible people taking advantage of a compassion (but also ignoring or dismissing the parts where gentler approach to emotionally-damaged people works out) to find it believable, and sticks to the belief that people can't change, and clings to the "efficient" solution to always put them down for good, like Tachibana's approach to Hajime. Quote:
So, you can imagine my absolute joy at a plot that’s all about how difficult it is to live with regrets, and how it’s about a monster who leverages that guilt into a way to obliterate a past the victim can’t bear to remember.
The specifics of the plot, the mechanics of it… not sure it works? It definitely has a cause-and-effect assumption that Japan’s infrastructure is as Kamen Rider-dependant as its youth outreach (so no one fixes the vehicular damage in three years?), but since this thing is 100% drilling into Tetsuo’s story, I mostly don’t care about the possible destruction of Japan. It’s a story about Ryotaro seeing a terrible person in pain, and trying to help them. Tetsuo’s a violent bully, but even he deserves a little grace, a little relief from pain. Having Ryotaro not completely get what ‘s going on but know that he can still help this guy? I love it. (The fact that Ryotaro only really agrees to fight as Kamen Rider Den-O after he sees a hollowed-out, teary Tetsuo is such an important point, and I'm glad the show made it.) Quote:
And I love that ending, where Ryotaro is so unmoved by arguments about causality when there’s someone hurting that he can help. Giving Tetsuo that little moment of being with his mother as she passes… this show! This is a show with magical trains and cute goth girls and imagination monsters and they told a story about the necessary catharsis of grief! And how it is more important to unburden people from the self-loathing that comes with regret than it is to detonate monsters!
This episode was, no joke, what I’ve been looking for over the last 300-odd episodes of Kamen Rider. It’s threading together the physicality of the monster plotting with the emotional stakes of the thematic work, and that storytelling is Kamen Rider to me. A mission to improve one life as a weapon against evil. Agreeing to enter a war against imagination monsters from the future because some bully could be at peace with himself if you do. I am so happy to get this type of Kamen Rider back in my life. Quote:
THE BAGGAGE CAR
-Here’s a little section for thoughts I don’t want to try and shoehorn into a larger discussion, and/or a way to talk about the non-melodramatic parts of these shows. -I like the physicality of Sword Form. There’s a wideness to it, where it’s low but the arc is massive. It’s not dainty or considered, it’s Power and Risk. I think that’s a great way of exploring Momotaros’ personality. -And, yeah, Momotaros! Love him. Love his feud with Hana. He is trying to be macho in a situation where he is the most cornered character. Such a fun dynamic. -Hana, also great. She’s a bit more feisty than I’d’ve expected, and that’s a nice surprise. She walks a line with steering Ryotaro, but still recognizing his autonomy. She’s never just, like, ordering him around. It feels like a burgeoning partnership. -The Den-Liner sets… I’d seen them before, in the OOO movie, and they are charmingly cheap. They are the most archaic Showa thing this show has in it, but it’s so Let’s Put On A Show whimsical that I don’t have it in me to run them down. It’d be embarrassing, if it all weren’t so goddamn energetic and heartfelt. I wish it were better designed, but like Momotaros, I’m going to ignore that wish. I don't think Hana being feisty comes off as a surprise anymore, considering franchise wide, KR includes people like Ozawa, Mari, Hirose, Akiko, Kiriko, Akari, Poppy, Misora, Mei. Also, you aren't ok if a male is being steered without autonomy too, even if it comes from a female? Anyways, yeah it's clearly not, don't know how there's a thought for ordering him around. Hana is completely generous and helpful to Ryotaro, it's much mroe than just burgeoning partnership, while in opposite, she's a hardass to Momotaros, walks a line with being abusive (though Momotaros deserved those for his morally ambiguous approach). There's a reason behind that, but that's spoilers. And Hana is a short for "Hanakuso Onna"!!
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02-20-2021, 09:05 AM | #60 |
Master Procrastinator
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 367
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Quote:
Yeah, time travel mechanics can have these kind of debates. And if you don't care about it as it's a confusing thing, then fair enough. This is also one of Kobayashi's not telling things. The series probably yeah, won't delve into what's going on between the altered events and present time (the only one's shown is Tetsuo's time and present time), probably even the impact to the present time is just simultaneous to the past one. But yeah, Den-O is the progenitor of phase 2 stuff, as said above, and monsters who interacts on daily basis to humans is more prevalent here, I too think that's a good thing to make monsters more interactive, Imagin changing their host's past for the sake of their wish, though probably the monsters before are made as natural disaster-like, so there are no moral problems on killing those monsters.
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