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01-09-2021, 09:20 PM | #551 |
I have a problematic type
Join Date: Jan 2012
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I can forgive Die for not noticing it, but I can't believe no one has mentioned the biggest thing to happen in this episode: we got the first appearance of Tsurugi's pronunciation of Kagami's name. It'll get more exaggerated as we go on, but it started here.
So, one thing I'll say about the Hiyori reveal is that it doesn't feel like a retcon or something that the writer threw in out of nowhere. It does fit with a lot of the earlier interactions between Tendou and Hiyori and why Tendou was so insistent on forcing his way into this otherwise random girl's life. It also recontextualizes the scene from a few episodes back where Kagami's dad vaguely threatens Tendou's little sister - he was talking about Hiyori, not Juka. So I actually like the twist in how it makes sense when retroactively applied to the rest of the series. The big issue I have is with the execution, especially when we get to the later stuff with the Tendou in the Iron Mask. I don't doubt that this twist was planned from the start, but the timing and execution are things that I have some real concerns with. So, as was spoiled earlier, Yui Satonaka, aka Hiyori, got sick and couldn't continue working on the show full-time (you may have noticed that she's been largely or entirely absent from a lot of recent episodes). I'm sure that the Worm reveal was planned for some point, but I don't know if it was supposed to happen now or later. All the stuff with Tendou-2, though, definitely feels like it was crammed into the episode because the show needed to a) act while Hiyori was still available and b) find a mechanism to write her out. |
01-09-2021, 09:59 PM | #552 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
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There's a really far away shot in the big fight where Kabuto ends up "killing" Hiyori where the camera is very clearly more interested in how pretty the rocks they're standing on and the docks in the background look than in the actual fighting. That's how you know the guy is passionate about these things!
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The end of this one was easily the weakest part to me. It's rushing through a bunch of plot, and no one's doing anything that feels explained. Much like the random appearances of Hyper Kabuto (who is instrumental to Kabuto's switcheroo and it never gets called out in the episode), there's a little too much going on that plays better in retrospect. Like, way too much This Will All Make Sense In The End. It's not that I don't trust the show to dot the i's or whatever, but it feels like I'm deferring too much of my enjoyment. I'd like the episodes to be good now?
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01-09-2021, 11:12 PM | #553 |
The Immortal King Tasty
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I really like this read, but I'm not sure it tracks? If it's from when Tendou confronts Kagami Outrageous at Police HQ, the thing that's going on during that threat is that Juka's been kidnapped by WorMisaki. Oh! Wait! The larger plot is that Worm Widow is trying to bump off the folks with space rocks, and Hiyori is in danger because of that. Yep! You're right! Good catch!
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01-09-2021, 11:15 PM | #554 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
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Then that was also a good catch, and you are very sneaky!
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01-10-2021, 01:18 AM | #555 |
Master Procrastinator
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 367
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Well sorry you still don't like the reveal. It fits though, with the shape shifting Worms replacing people and the like. Still it seems pretty obvious that this was planned. You are for whatever reason, enjoying the things about this show that I dislike and disliking that things that I like. This show is just that weird I guess.
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01-10-2021, 01:30 AM | #556 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
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Well sorry you still don't like the reveal. It fits though, with the shape shifting Worms replacing people and the like. Still it seems pretty obvious that this was planned. You are for whatever reason, enjoying the things about this show that I dislike and disliking that things that I like. This show is just that weird I guess.
For the record, I never thought the reveal that Hiyori and Tendou were related was unplanned or a retcon. (I did think it was something that was just in the movie at first, though.) This show's way too smart and intricate to just suddenly decide something this major. I would not doubt for a second that it was in the initial pitch document or series bible. What I'd argue is that it's an unnecessary element, and one that arrives later in the series than I'd enjoy. If this happened around episode 15 or 20, I'd be a little more receptive to it. Here, at 32, it feels like the relationships between the characters had progressed so much further than Secret Siblings as an idea, gotten so much deeper than Tendou Has To Kill Kagami To Protect Hiyori's Secret. (Which, I see what the show is going for emotionally with that, highlighting Tendou's unshackled commitment to Hiyori, but it comes off like Tendou hasn't listened to a word Kagami said for the last two episodes. Kagami was specifically the one who said that Not All Worms deserve to die. It's another moment in this one where I can't understand why people are behaving the way they are.) It... I think it flattens out the uniqueness of Tendou and Hiyori's bond, and that bums me out. Also, I think my feelings about Tendou/Hiyori (do not like) are getting a little tangled up with Hiyori/Worm (pretty into, didn't love how the show handled the fallout) as far as how I'm communicating my feelings about this episode. There are two reveals, and it's really the Secret Siblings one that I regret the show pursuing.
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01-10-2021, 01:58 AM | #557 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
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Also, I think my feelings about Tendou/Hiyori (do not like) are getting a little tangled up with Hiyori/Worm (pretty into, didn't love how the show handled the fallout) as far as how I'm communicating my feelings about this episode. There are two reveals, and it's really the Secret Siblings one that I regret the show pursuing.
Like, I feel like this episode would've been better served as two episodes? An episode that's more directly about Hiyori being a Worm would've felt like the show was taking that change seriously, while a following episode that let Tendou react as her brother would've been... I mean, I still wouldn't be in favor of it as a story, but I think it would've felt more organic (and less intrusive) than it did here.
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01-10-2021, 10:40 AM | #558 |
Standing By
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: USA
Posts: 2,089
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KAMEN RIDER KABUTO - EPISODE 31
An episode full of questions, all asked to varying degrees of anticipation. The one I was the most interested in was Are There Good Worms, and the episode really finds itself when it’s digging into that idea. Now that Kagami has it confirmed by Jiiya that Tsurugi is a Worm who thinks he’s an idiot man (and that confirmation is almost withheld by Jiiya escaping on a conveniently-placed bicycle, before realizing the kickstand is down and he is not moving), there’s more skepticism than normal to Tsurugi’s heroism. He’s seen first-hand that Worms can be redeemed, so maybe Tsurugi just needs to be supported? Befriended? It leads to the best parts of this episode for me, where Kagami’s Very Big Feelings see him trying to break the reality of the situation to Tsurugi, and being thwarted by Tsurugi’s unshakable belief that Kagami just wants to be his friend. It’s a great escalation through the episode, with Tsurugi’s heartfelt exposition drawing the two men closer together, and Kagami’s growing frustration at being The Smart One in an exchange keeping him from seeing Tsurugi for the monster he appears to be. Like, this is an episode where Kagami is the one dealing with an oblivious Rider, and it’s such a fun idea. Taking that idea and then saying, wait, Are There Good Worms around it, spinning Kagami’s confusion out to a larger reexamination of the show’s central threat… I think that’s a debate that has merit? It helps that it's an ideological struggle between Kagami’s Very Big Feelings and Tendou’s self-righteous certainty; optimism versus pragmatism. To Tendou, the Worms are a pestilence, a swarming race of monsters. He’ll take them out, because he knows that, given the chance, they’d take him out. To Kagami, he’s experienced the battle within Worms, seen them act with humility, nobility, kindness. If a Worm can take a human’s memories, couldn’t they also take their empathy? Their soul? Isn’t there room to question whether or not they all deserve to die? How he would react to finding out the terrible truth is something that makes Kagami hesitate to tell him, which puts him in a similar situation to Tendo who holds the truth about Hiyori. It's a difficult problem. If the truth is so terrible, does that justify keeping it a secret from someone or lying to them, or does that just allow them to live in false happiness? Does it make the humans any different from the Worms? Maybe Tsurugi, who is if nothing else honest, is more human that most actual humans which is why Kagami feels a connection with him. Quote:
A QUESTION
I cannot say enough good things about Tsurugi and Kagami’s friendship. It makes Kagami into the Tendou of the friendship, and it’s endlessly charming. Tsurugi is way more than a handful, but it’s hard to look down on his enthusiasm. If you had to befriend one member of the Kabuto cast, who would it be and why? Quote:
KAMEN RIDER KABUTO - EPISODE 32
Even the plot at the end… it leans real heavy on things happening for barely defined (or completely undefined) reasons. Hiyori gets a psychic call to go to Area X (thankfully the call didn’t take her to the more distant Area Orpheus, or she’d still be walking), where she unlocks the Man In The Mask, who is Another Tendou. Not a huge shock, since the combination of a mask and the Law Of Conservation Of Actors meant that whoever was under there was someone already on the show in another role, and Tendou was the most likely suspect. There’s basically no other details given here; who he is in relation to Tendou and Hiyori, why he’s in a basement, what he wants, etc. It’s another question. I found this one… not good. It took a story, a pairing, that I was really invested in, and scribbled SECRET DESTINY over all of the nuance, all of the characterization. It took a smaller story about two people and made it epic, washing out the decision-making in the process. They were people, now they’re plot. I think all the nuance of their friendship is still there and the new revelations about Hiyori are just as important to Hiyori's own story as Tendo's. You wanted to see more progress for Hiyori's arc following their adventure in Area X and that's what's happening here. With this new information, she has gone back to that place in search of answers that should hopefully be more clear to her now. The other Souji is important to her destiny. Quote:
This is the one episode from this part of the series I have no comment on.
I will say that Another Tendou is a character you have free reign to call what you want, since the show and it’s media never call him anything. The credits call him “The Other Souji”, while many fans refer to him as “Souji Kusakabe” (after the surname he abandoned) Waga Tomo KaGAHmi is what I hear in my head everytime I type or read the name Kagami. I just couldn't recall when Tsurugi started saying it but he's a great source of comedy for sure!
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01-10-2021, 11:25 AM | #559 |
Veteran Member
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Quote:
KAMEN RIDER KABUTO - EPISODE 32
It’s like that with Tendou and Hiyori’s bond. What was previously a story about two people that overcame their own weirdness to find something within the other, a story where you can make a family out of the people who are always there for you… now it’s just a story about Tendou gaslighting Hiyori. And, like, I get why he didn’t tell her the truth about their relationship. Even if she’d’ve believed him (she wouldn’t’ve), telling her that she’s his Worm half-sister (or whatever) means telling her she’s a Worm, and that would be incredibly dangerous for her. He needed to keep it a secret for her safety. But now it’s this semi-gross story about a dude keeping secrets because a woman can’t handle the truth, a decision he makes 100% on her behalf, and… I mean, it’s not a story about two people finding something within the other. It’s a story about Hiyori finding something of herself in a friend, and Tendou protecting his sister no matter what. Quote:
There’s an… an asymmetry to it that I really dislike. It’s not about common ground, or friendship. He’s withholding the key elements of their relationship, and it robs their story of so much choice. He’s not protecting Hiyori because of her kindness, her vulnerability, her talents, her brusqueness, her her her. He’s doing it because She’s Family, and I find that less interesting. So much less interesting.
I'd like to talk about how Tendou responds to Kagami in this episode. If Tendou proclaims to kill any beings to protect Hiyori, because of Kagami knowing that she's alive (Tendou faking her death so that she won't be targeted by others), so that means Tendou won't allow anyone to know or interact with Hiyori other than him? How would Hiyori be able to live properly this way, with Tendou wanting Hiyori to live as Hiyori (I know what that means, he wants for Hiyori to live as Hiyori, not as a monstrous Worm)? This is overprotective taken to the extremes. Quote:
And to take that reveal of Hiyori being a Worm and do an episode that’s half filling in blanks and half Tendou’s Very Big Feelings (for a change!), I don’t know. It’s an episode that doesn’t leave a lot of room for Hiyori, in a story that’s ostensibly about Hiyori? It makes her a problem to solve, emotionally and narratively, rather than an active character in the story. (One of the biggest emotional parts of the story is Tendou and Kagami yelling at each other about Hiyori! A scene she’s not even in!)
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The details of her history… I guess they work? There’s presumably a ton of detail yet to be explained, because what’s here makes the barest amount of sense. Why were those two Worms there before the asteroid hit? Why copy and kill Tendou’s parents? What the hell were they doing for the next however many years? It’s all stuff that’s not exactly pertinent to Tendou and Hiyori’s story, but the absence of it made it difficult to concentrate on the rest. It’s definitely a set of answers that raises twice as many questions, which is I guess the mode this show is in now.
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Even the plot at the end… it leans real heavy on things happening for barely defined (or completely undefined) reasons. Hiyori gets a psychic call to go to Area X (thankfully the call didn’t take her to the more distant Area Orpheus, or she’d still be walking), where she unlocks the Man In The Mask, who is Another Tendou. Not a huge shock, since the combination of a mask and the Law Of Conservation Of Actors meant that whoever was under there was someone already on the show in another role, and Tendou was the most likely suspect. There’s basically no other details given here; who he is in relation to Tendou and Hiyori, why he’s in a basement, what he wants, etc. It’s another question.
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Even this sort of bothered me? Thematically, it makes sense for Tendou to want to stop the Worms: he is all about helping people achieve, and they are all about stealing that achievement for themselves. Narratively, they already had a great reason for him to want to stop the Worms: it's what he's best at, and it'd be unconscionable for him to do anything less than his best at all times. Making his motivation They Killed My Parents... ugh. Uggghhh. It's like in one episode, they sanded down every interesting angle on this show.
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01-10-2021, 01:10 PM | #560 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
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I think all the nuance of their friendship is still there and the new revelations about Hiyori are just as important to Hiyori's own story as Tendo's. You wanted to see more progress for Hiyori's arc following their adventure in Area X and that's what's happening here. With this new information, she has gone back to that place in search of answers that should hopefully be more clear to her now. The other Souji is important to her destiny.
For her getting a psychic Find My Friend ping and discovering Another Tendou... it's a lot for one episode. They are hitting Hiyori with being a Worm, finding out her terrible origins, discovering Tendou is her brother, and then still having her wander off to Area X (a hard right after Area Sundown) to meet Another Tendou. That's a lot! I think all of that stuff needed more room to breathe. Quote:
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I'd like to talk about how Tendou responds to Kagami in this episode. If Tendou proclaims to kill any beings to protect Hiyori, because of Kagami knowing that she's alive (Tendou faking her death so that she won't be targeted by others), so that means Tendou won't allow anyone to know or interact with Hiyori other than him? How would Hiyori be able to live properly this way, with Tendou wanting Hiyori to live as Hiyori (I know what that means, he wants for Hiyori to live as Hiyori, not as a monstrous Worm)? This is overprotective taken to the extremes.
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Uhh... didn't Hiyori tell Rena to stop, and that at the end, she goes to the Shibuya by herself and confronting any ZECTroopers with a chilling look on her face, and disposed them using her Worm form? Isn't that being active, being able to go into that place without Tendou or Kagami accompanying her, and her making a good use of her Worm form?
And her running off because Worm Widow is telling her They're All Going To Laugh At You... I mean, if we're going to refer to that as Hiyori being in control of her story, we have lowered the bar pretty low. The problem for me with both of those examples are that it becomes more about other people's agendas, other plots. Worm Widow's scene is about her manipulating Hiyori, not Hiyori responding to manipulation. (It's also under a minute long, so let's keep that in mind.) Hiyori going to see Another Tendou at the end isn't some huge decision, it's a weird plot thing that happens because of a psychic phenomenon. Quote:
Well, no offense sorry, but I don't feel that you're being fair here. For this part which don't work to you, you throw in various questions to show more of its disapproval here (well, tbf, you did question about what the Worms are actually doing), like the Worms existing before asteroid, targeting Tendou's parents, what they're doing for next years. I'm probably not defending these parts, but my point is that, there are also various things that probably doesn't make sense (dunno if you or others think plausible explanations for this) in the story, like for Tsurugi, him being the only case of a Worm that had the human personality completely overpowers him by impossible odds, only due to Tsurugi's arrogant nature and personality. Also for why the Worms that impersonated his parents existed before the asteroid, sorry, I can't explain that too! Because spoilers.
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