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04-17-2021, 10:04 PM | #781 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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Yeah, it's like, The Climax Goes On... into a billion hours of additional content. I'm currently planning on squeezing in all of the 2007 and 2008 content after I finish Kiva, and then all of the post-Kiva Den-O stuff after Decade. I gotta take a break from this series, even if I love the characters. But it'll all get covered down the line.
(There's also Sunday's Series Wrap-Up post and Monday's Poorly-Named Thread Wrap-Up post to "look forward to".)
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04-18-2021, 03:30 AM | #782 |
New Member
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Evanston IL.
Posts: 95
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Kai Its one of the worst villains I have ever seen.
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04-18-2021, 07:50 AM | #783 |
Warrior of Delusions!
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Wait, you dont know either?
Posts: 5,826
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I took me a good few years to watch Den-O. I started out back when TokuNation did Let's Watch Wednesdays, but as I often do, I lost track around the teens and left it. Every so often, I came back it watch another 5 or so episodes over a couple of days, then left it again. I've no idea how I ended up in that situation, I guess after a while it was just the done thing. Even with all that going against it, Den-O's finale still hit the mark. The timey wimey nonsense, yeah, it's frustrating how all the emotional stuff is built on something that fundamentally makes no sense... but the emotional stuff is so good, it's worth it. Yuto sobbing as he scarfs down the soup, the gang pranking Ryotaro, him cycling away as he goes to live his life until the next crossover needs him, all great images.
Also, I've just realised, Build pulls the exact same trick with its finale! Even down to the timey-wimey stuff making no sense!
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04-18-2021, 09:23 AM | #784 |
Standing By
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: USA
Posts: 2,098
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Quote:
But she wasn't even born when her timeline was destroyed by Kai? Like, she was barely an inch long? I'm not sure how her living her life, like, works after that. Even for a show with a cellphone that can raise the dead, Hana being a fetus with no timeline that shows up as a 19-year old woman... I don't understand how that's possible?!
Quote:
Yeah, it's like, The Climax Goes On... into a billion hours of additional content. I'm currently planning on squeezing in all of the 2007 and 2008 content after I finish Kiva, and then all of the post-Kiva Den-O stuff after Decade. I gotta take a break from this series, even if I love the characters. But it'll all get covered down the line.
Hmm? What didn't you understand about Build's world merge?
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04-18-2021, 11:23 AM | #785 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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Kai is maybe my favorite Kamen Rider villain of all time. Sorry he didn't work for you!
Quote:
I took me a good few years to watch Den-O. I started out back when TokuNation did Let's Watch Wednesdays, but as I often do, I lost track around the teens and left it. Every so often, I came back it watch another 5 or so episodes over a couple of days, then left it again. I've no idea how I ended up in that situation, I guess after a while it was just the done thing. Even with all that going against it, Den-O's finale still hit the mark. The timey wimey nonsense, yeah, it's frustrating how all the emotional stuff is built on something that fundamentally makes no sense... but the emotional stuff is so good, it's worth it. Yuto sobbing as he scarfs down the soup, the gang pranking Ryotaro, him cycling away as he goes to live his life until the next crossover needs him, all great images.
Quote:
I will try to remember that! There's a bunch of logistical stuff to the Decade thread that may prevent that, but I'll try to do it right!
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04-18-2021, 01:15 PM | #786 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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KAMEN RIDER DEN-O - SERIES WRAP UP
For what looked to be a straight-forward(-ish) adventure show at the outset, Kamen Rider Den-O left me with a lot of little pieces to pick at afterwards. -- Every Heisei Kamen Rider series exists on a spectrum. At one end is the question How Do We Live With Each Other. At the other end is the question How Do We Live With Ourselves. This isn't to say it's the entirety of what a series wants to talk about, or ends up communicating, but you can plot every series at a proximity between those two questions. Like, Kuuga is a series that's about how we live with ourselves, as dramatized by Godai's struggles with power and violence. Ryuki is a series about how we live with each other, what with its Riders and their individual goals, and how difficult it can be to understand other people's motivations. Faiz exists at a midpoint between the two, using Takumi's battle for self-acceptance as a window into a story about how two cultures vacillate between isolation and assimilation. (Faiz is the best.) Den-O is a very much a series about how we live with ourselves. There are other people in Ryotaro's life, and he cares for them, but the series is focused with laser-like precision on his (and, separately, Yuuto's) journey towards self-actualization. It's about Ryotaro controlling the various aspects of himself, illustrated by the Imagin, and coming out the other side a hero. It's about memories, and how we should try to draw strength from even the worst of them. It's about the trap of nostalgia, and the danger of ignoring the present. It's about the future as a thing that we're working towards, not a place that's waiting for us. All of that is an internal journey, a process we each have to navigate in our hearts and minds. It's kind of amazing, for a show almost defined by its phenomenal ensemble, that it ends up being a story about the hard work we end up doing in secret. -- I get why folks who watched the show already are, at a minimum, able to look past the series-arc to see the astonishingly good character work. There's a ton about the story that only makes sense in retrospect. Almost all of the context for everything that's happening gets explained in the final six episodes. (If then!) Once you know what Sakurai's up to and how Yuuto fits in and why Hana's alone, it just becomes pleasant background noise. Wallpaper to occasionally acknowledge while you laugh along with your multi-colored monster friends. It's just, before you reach that point, it feels like the show is stopping every few episodes to point out the wallpaper, to make sure you're really listening to the weird sounds in the background. There's this frustrating emphasis on reminding you that There Is A Mystery, even as the show is working hard to not explain or progress that mystery. It's constantly disrupting the agreeable tone the show has, slowing down the hectic pace of adventures to have characters scrunch up their faces in consternation. It adds a confusing mystery that no one asked for to a genial hangout show. I guarantee you I'd be more appreciative of what the show was doing with its series-arc if I watched it again right now. I'd be more willing to find connections, to see how the show is using its mythology to support its themes. It's just, the show is so reluctant to point out that it's doing it, like it's ashamed of it, that you can't even have that experience until you're all done. It's a mystery that's more concerned with you noticing there's a mystery than it is with you understanding the mystery, and what it's there for. It's, by far, the biggest flaw in this series. -- But those characters! They're so good. It's a cast of ringers, every one of them a lead. Ryotaro somehow makes the most soft-spoken, unassertive character in Kamen Rider history feel believable as an apocalypse-averting hero. He never really becomes the type of hero who'd carry the world on his shoulders, and that's for the best. So much of Ryotaro's story is about letting other people fight their own battles, and it's nice that the show honors that version of heroism. He's a hero who never wanted to be a fighter, and he saved the day by remembering the things he cared about. I've never watched a superhero show with that sort of character at the center. Ryotaro is the beating heart of this show. Momotaros! Why would you ever not put Momotaros in other projects! Momo was the first Den-O character I ever met, in an Ex-Aid film, and I get why he was worth bringing back on his own. He's the other half of Den-O, really. Similar to what we'd get a few years later with W, these two characters are, collectively, a superhero. Momo brings the energy, the danger, the humor, the boldness. It's right that the biggest, best scenes in Ryotaro's story are with Momo. The story of them valuing each other's contributions, of them carving out a partnership from happenstance, it's easily worth sitting through the worst of the series-arc stuff. Momo is the beating heart of this show. I'd have to dig all the way back in this thread to know for sure, but I'd bet I was dismissive of Airi when she first appeared. She comes off as one ingredient too many; an anchor for a show that's sprinting away from Kamen Rider tropes. She's the sibling who runs a coffee shop. Who cares? Well, me, a lot, as it turns out. Airi is the innocence the show is trying to protect, and the world-weariness that comes with that protection. She's someone who has sacrificed so much to create a future for people she can't even remember. She's heroism as infinite empathy, the ability to care about people you've never met for reasons no greater than because everyone deserves to be cared about. Airi is the beating heart of this show. Yuuto and Deneb are an unstoppable pair. Comedic to an enviable extreme (I could watch an entire series of Yuuto being so embarrassed by Deneb that they wrestle), and a brilliant look at the comfort of a moment. Deneb doesn't exist beyond the boundaries of his service to Yuuto, and Yuuto isn't remembered by the world he's been saving. All they have is one another, and that's shown to be an incredibly precious thing. It's not some half-life either one of them is living, but a joyous trip through time, friends forever, always now. Yuuto and Deneb are the beating heart of this show. The other DenLiner Imagin, any one of them could've taken Momo's place without this show being anything less than watchable. Ura's scheming gave way to a keen mind that wanted to protect his more gullible friends. Kin's steadfast guardianship kept every other lunatic from literally pushing the train off the tracks. Sieg's nascent view of family was as unexpected as it was heartwarming. And Ryuta's childlike rambunctiousness transitioned, through the tough lessons of community that come with growing up, into something approaching teamwork. Those Imagin were the beating heart of this show. Hana?€? boy, a hard character to praise. Recasting the actor consigned the character to also-ran status, as useful to the storytelling as Naomi or Owner. She served a function, but they never really told a story about her character after the recasting. Even at the end, when her secret origin is revealed, it's just a weapon Ryotaro uses against Kai. Hana doesn't say it, and we never get her reaction to it. There's a ton of potential in her character, and some fantastic emotional beats in the early going (I'll probably remember her reaction to Kin's sacrifice from the early days of the show long after I've forgotten the rest of her contributions) (I mean, that hostage story is pretty choice, too), but there's no real arc to her story. She wasn't the beating heart of this story, unfortunately. -- The second half of this series wasn't so much for me. It was more about junction points and Sakurai and Time Nonsense, and I didn't give a shit. See above, you know? But, man, all them little stories in the first half. Loved them. I loved the little lives that needed to be saved, the micro-traumas to be resolved, the hopes renewed. That was when the show was unbeatable. The loss of those stories, or the space to tell those stories, that's my biggest disappointment over how Den-O turned out. For me, the series peaked with that Shouko story. 41 and 42 are, in my mind, the finale of the show. It's the absolute pinnacle of what this show did well. There's this little story about valuing the present instead of regretting the past or hoping for the future, with a character I believe in, and some heroes who need to learn that lesson. It's more powerful to me than a hundred Imagin bringing about Armageddon. It's the last moment I felt fully invested in this show. Everything afterwards felt compromised, like I was sifting through dirt to find flecks of gold. But when this show wanted to tell a human story in a world of imagination monsters from the end of time, it was electric. -- Despite mostly not feeling too great about the second half, and having basically negative patience for Time Nonsense, Kai is maybe my favorite endgame villain in Kamen Rider. Like, full-stop. I think, and I'm honestly not joking about this, it's because he also doesn't feel too great about the second half of Den-O, and he also has basically negative patience for Time Nonsense. For a show full of half-explained mysteries that the series cannot stop obsessing over, here's Kai explaining his origin and motivation: That's it! And it's perfect! He doesn't give a single shit about explaining himself or threatening our heroes. He's just doing some dumb job he doesn't care about, and he's okay with you knowing that. His body language is always bored. His schemes are repetitive, because why bother trying to be clever. He's this show's combination of fascination with and ambivalence for an endgame, but as a tall and lanky boy. He's fully committed to a thing he can't muster much enthusiasm for, and he's okay just blowing it all up at a certain point. He's the best villain that a show that resolutely did not need a villain could have. -- This series wasn't really what I was hoping for, if you're okay with me saying that. I was very into the beginning's melancholy and absurdity and recruitment and human interest. But as the series wore on, it kept putting its emphasis on baffling resolutions that took an additional episode to explain; on Big Mysteries that lacked any context or framework; on Sakurai, a memory of a man, that was a clever concept and an absolutely terrible plotline because he was never ever ever a character that the viewer could care about; on giant battles that snuffed out the smaller delights this show was engineered to produce. The characters were fantastic. The stories were delightful. The series was aggravating. Like Ryotaro, Kamen Rider Den-O contains multitudes. I'm sure I'll remember it for quite some time.
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04-18-2021, 01:30 PM | #787 |
Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 2,551
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Well, that’s the end of the show. Now, you prepare for the follow ups.
I should probably mention I got introduced to Den-O through said movies, so if there’s anything you find weird compared to the show… I felt that what the show did was weird compared to the movies. |
04-18-2021, 01:33 PM | #788 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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Quote:
Well, that’s the end of the show. Now, you prepare for the follow ups.
I should probably mention I got introduced to Den-O through said movies, so if there’s anything you find weird compared to the show… I felt that what the show did was weird compared to the movies.
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04-18-2021, 05:44 PM | #789 |
Ex-Weather Three leader
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,530
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All I am gonna say is this show makes me want either fried rice or coffee every time it is brought up. Coffee proper not that funky 90s Nickelodeon-looking stuff the imagins drink. I didn't know it was coffee until Ura's infamous spitting scene.
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04-18-2021, 05:57 PM | #790 |
I have a problematic type
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,420
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Okay, finally sitting down to discuss my thoughts on the last two episodes.
Episode 48 has some of the same problems as 47 for me, in regards to the Urataros stuff. It just doesn't feel like it carries the narrative heft that it wants to and, honestly, feels like it's killing some time before the finale. As for the finale itself, I like it. Not my favorite in the franchise, not my least. I'm not sure what it is, but it feels oddly low stakes for me. It shouldn't, between the destruction of an entire timeline and the armies of Imagin taking advantage of the show's reduced Rider population. We get a big reveal about Hana, Yuuto permanently erases Sakurai's existence, there's a "cheers love, the cavalry's here!" moment with Sieg, of all people... it should feel bigger than it does. It's good, and that Sieg moment in particular was fantastic, but it still feels relatively low key. I think a lot of it boils down to how simple and straightforward the final boss fight is? The Gorenger style bouncing attack is cool and all, but it basically amounts to one shot, a dead Imagin, and then Kai just disintegrates. I don't know. Something about that whole element of the finale didn't really do much for me. The aftermath, though, that stuff was gold. Even knowing it was coming, the scene with the Taros squabbling while trying to hide and thereby giving away their cover is hilarious. The Yuuto and Deneb scene is really touching and all of the Airi stuff is... there. I really love the last few minutes, though, with Ryotaro turning in his pass and then waving goodbye to everyone. It doesn't work as well as it would if I didn't know that there were going to be all the movies and specials and cameos and stuff, but it's still a really nice, touching ending. Man, am I curious to know how all of this would have played out if Hana's original actress hadn't left. I don't know if there would have been any real difference, but I'm also not sure if having a child Kohana made it easier to work her in as Airi and Sakurai's child. Not sure. |
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