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08-30-2019, 10:39 AM | #111 |
Showa Girl
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 9,064
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I will admit... you have kind of made me want to rewatch Ghost, lol. Or at least the Specter movie. Maybe I was too hard on it the first time, but you do bring up some good points about it.
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08-30-2019, 10:49 AM | #112 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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Thanks! A full rewatch of Ghost, I mean, I don't want to oversell what they achieved. Maybe start with Episode 13, see how that feels? Or, yeah, a one-hour Ghost movie like RE:BIRTH could be a good choice, too.
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08-30-2019, 10:59 AM | #113 |
take me to space
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 1,406
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The Rebirth movie is quite the peculiar ride, but I don't think it was done badly... as long as you're willing to pretend the parts of the summer movie were better than they actually were.
I absolutely love the final climatic fight though. The action is stellar, the sweet remix of Specter's theme playing is great, and I mostly bought into the emotional stakes even though it involved this new rather ridiculous backstory. And the final final scene of Alain giving this big speech about how much his friends have taught all while this exciting instrumental of Ghost's theme song plays, it honestly made me go 'You know what? Ghost is altogether alright' in a way some old coach says upon seeing their underdog school sports team celebrating. I hope that analogy makes sense... |
08-30-2019, 11:56 AM | #114 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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Quote:
And the final final scene of Alain giving this big speech about how much his friends have taught all while this exciting instrumental of Ghost's theme song plays, it honestly made me go 'You know what? Ghost is altogether alright' in a way some old coach says upon seeing their underdog school sports team celebrating. I hope that analogy makes sense...
Having Alain deliver the final "here's what the story was about emotionally" speech was the best choice the producers could've made, though. He's easily the strongest male performer, and he can sell the gravitas of a Bold New Tomorrow speech. I did laugh a bit in the middle, though, where he's trying to tie his friendship with Makoto to the fate of the Ganma people, and it's just... I get that you have a very special, very fulfilling friendship with Specter, but these people have been dying in the dirt. (Is takoyaki the only thing they eat? They must be so malnourished!) I don't think they care so much that your friends make you happy, Alain! They mostly just want to not die!
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08-30-2019, 09:28 PM | #115 |
The Immortal King Tasty
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Every diner you've ever been to.
Posts: 3,833
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I freakin' love the Specter movie sooo much. The amount of guts it had to try and tie together so many of Ghost's sloppier bits into something more worthwhile is commendable, and while the end result still isn't entirely airtight, it really feels like a present for everyone who stuck with Ghost to the bitter end. Just look at how they handled Takeru in it. Everybody else gets their wish granted because it's a story where Alain and Makoto are firmly the main characters, and yet I still get to be happy too because he made sure to do some speechifying in what little screentime he has. It's the definition of a win-win scenario.
And that climax is honestly one of the single most hype moments I've ever seen in Kamen Rider. Especially that Rider Kick. I still vividly remember my mind being totally blown watching it for the first time and realizing after a second or two the significance of the fireworks that were suddenly going off behind Specter. It's this absolutely perfectly timed moment where the literal plot bleeds into the visual symbolism in a way that's just... I mean, wow is it good. It definitely helps that the movie was directed by Kazuya Kamihoriuchi. He massively elevates anything he works on when it comes to cinematography. He directed a handful of extremely memorable episodes of Build too (as well as both Heisei Generations Final and the summer movie), so look forward to that. And thank you for making this thread, by the way. I'm not gonna lie, my initial reaction to seeing it was "oh f***, here we go again", so it was a pleasant surprise to see you consistently giving the show such a fair shake and really approaching it on its own terms rather than simply dismissing everything you didn't like about it without a further thought. This is easily some of the most level-headed analysis of this show I've seen, and it was cool to see how unique your particular perspective was. I've certainly never seen someone say Ghost is at its best in the back half before. Even I tend to agree the show was strongest around either side of the middle, so it was something of a shock to see you having so much fun with some of those later episodes.
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08-30-2019, 11:48 PM | #116 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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Quote:
I freakin' love the Specter movie sooo much. The amount of guts it had to try and tie together so many of Ghost's sloppier bits into something more worthwhile is commendable, and while the end result still isn't entirely airtight, it really feels like a present for everyone who stuck with Ghost to the bitter end. Just look at how they handled Takeru in it. Everybody else gets their wish granted because it's a story where Alain and Makoto are firmly the main characters, and yet I still get to be happy too because he made sure to do some speechifying in what little screentime he has. It's the definition of a win-win scenario.
And that climax is honestly one of the single most hype moments I've ever seen in Kamen Rider. Especially that Rider Kick. I still vividly remember my mind being totally blown watching it for the first time and realizing after a second or two the significance of the fireworks that were suddenly going off behind Specter. It's this absolutely perfectly timed moment where the literal plot bleeds into the visual symbolism in a way that's just... I mean, wow is it good. Quote:
And thank you for making this thread, by the way. I'm not gonna lie, my initial reaction to seeing it was "oh f***, here we go again", so it was a pleasant surprise to see you consistently giving the show such a fair shake and really approaching it on its own terms rather than simply dismissing everything you didn't like about it without a further thought. This is easily some of the most level-headed analysis of this show I've seen, and it was cool to see how unique your particular perspective was. I've certainly never seen someone say Ghost is at its best in the back half before. Even I tend to agree the show was strongest around either side of the middle, so it was something of a shock to see you having so much fun with some of those later episodes.
And, y'know, people really rag on the last string of Ghost episodes, and it just feels a little disproportionate. Like, the way some people talk about it, you'd think it was a swirling morass of disappointment. I mean, it's not like the show forgot to do fight scenes and form changes and explosions and Omega Drives and sacrifices and escapes and all. That stuff is still there! It's in practically every episode! I don't know if it's folks feeling let down after the heights of Drive (fair) or the online tendency to regard a lack of perfection as The Worst (less fair), but I didn't think the end of Ghost was nearly the catastrophe folks made it out to be. That beginning, though. Eesh. Eeeeeeeeesssssshhhhh.
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08-31-2019, 04:39 AM | #117 |
Warrior of Delusions!
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Wait, you dont know either?
Posts: 5,825
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If you want an elaboration from someone who thinks the ending is a bit naff, I'll try to give a few thoughts I have. I don't hate Ghost, and the middle run of episodes is good stuff, but the end just kinda lets me down. I just don't find Adel and the Ganmeizers compelling villains. Adel doesn't have the bombastic *fun* evil other villains use (Chronos, Evol, Gold Drive), so it's forced to come down to his plan and characterm. He never feels like more than a petty child (maybe that's the point, idk, but it doesn't make it better), and the plan... look, watching Ghost week to week, I didn't have a clue what was going on with Demia. First it's stealing people's souls, then it's pulling a "The End of Time" and mutating everyone into Adel. I just couldn't follow properly, so it was less engaged.
Plus, the Ganmeizers could be replaced with planks of wood that shoot lasers. Combine that with the random reappearance of the stars of the Legend Rider specials, for whatever reason, as well as Ghost's inability to properly explain how any of its magic-science fits togther... it lost me. Don't get me wrong, there are some things I love about Ghost. All three main Riders are pretty great (but then again I think Geiz is great and half the board disagrees with me on that!), and the ReBirth movie, while being bonkers af, is a fun ride. But the finale just doesn't live up to the hype, either thematically (for reasons you gave) or excitement-wise.
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08-31-2019, 06:32 AM | #118 |
Showa Girl
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 9,064
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I have similar reasons to Silver; but in addition I felt that they really dropped the ball on giving Alain ANYTHING to do; and I got absolutely nothing from Makoto's side of things. I've also got a big ol' rant about Jiro saved somewhere...
But, yeah, maybe it's not as bad as I initially felt |
08-31-2019, 08:59 AM | #119 |
Warrior of Delusions!
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Wait, you dont know either?
Posts: 5,825
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"Alain got to train with the three Sanzou spirits, that counts as something to do, right?"
- John Toei, 2016.
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08-31-2019, 10:44 AM | #120 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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Quote:
If you want an elaboration from someone who thinks the ending is a bit naff, I'll try to give a few thoughts I have. I don't hate Ghost, and the middle run of episodes is good stuff, but the end just kinda lets me down. I just don't find Adel and the Ganmeizers compelling villains. Adel doesn't have the bombastic *fun* evil other villains use (Chronos, Evol, Gold Drive), so it's forced to come down to his plan and characterm. He never feels like more than a petty child (maybe that's the point, idk, but it doesn't make it better), and the plan... look, watching Ghost week to week, I didn't have a clue what was going on with Demia. First it's stealing people's souls, then it's pulling a "The End of Time" and mutating everyone into Adel. I just couldn't follow properly, so it was less engaged.
Plus, the Ganmeizers could be replaced with planks of wood that shoot lasers. Combine that with the random reappearance of the stars of the Legend Rider specials, for whatever reason, as well as Ghost's inability to properly explain how any of its magic-science fits togther... it lost me. Don't get me wrong, there are some things I love about Ghost. All three main Riders are pretty great (but then again I think Geiz is great and half the board disagrees with me on that!), and the ReBirth movie, while being bonkers af, is a fun ride. But the finale just doesn't live up to the hype, either thematically (for reasons you gave) or excitement-wise. For most of the story, Adel is not a great villain. He rarely seems like a real threat, and the overall plan is just "turn Earth into Ganma World", which, it's too nebulous to feel viscerally scary. The ramp up into monomaniacal I Am The World insanity is too cold and emotionless to really get things going in the final run of episodes. But! Once Adel hits the villain stage of Taunting The Hero Because You Killed His Dad (all dads are dead), I feel like the show really, really locks into something. All of the isolation that Adel's brought on himself is revealed as a defense mechanism, and it's used as the thematic opposite to everything Takeru stands for. Making the climax of Adel's story "Takeru hugged him so well he didn't want to be evil anymore" is hokey as shit and also amazingly brave. It's a way of the show being true to its emotional goals even if folks would rather see a violent confrontation. It's cathartic, but in the most unexpected way. I don't know, I thought that choice bought the show a lot of my appreciation. I get what you're saying, though. If the Adel resolution doesn't land for you (for a variety of very valid reasons!) the final string of episodes mostly just drag and then stop. Still, I'd suggest that it's at least competent and steady in a way that the high/low swings of the earlier parts of the show maybe weren't. Quote:
I have similar reasons to Silver; but in addition I felt that they really dropped the ball on giving Alain ANYTHING to do; and I got absolutely nothing from Makoto's side of things. I've also got a big ol' rant about Jiro saved somewhere...
But, yeah, maybe it's not as bad as I initially felt Like a lot of things that keep Ghost from greatness, it's a choice, and I can see why the producers made it, but it maybe wasn't the smartest choice. Still, and I'm sure this doesn't matter much to folks that were way more into Alain (reasonable!), but I think the show was really trying to dial into the Takeru/Adel conflict, maybe to the exclusion of other stories. I ended up thinking it was a worthwhile use of episodes, but, y'know, I can see why people might feel otherwise. I don't feel like my view is the only one. I am not the world!
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