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07-27-2023, 03:56 PM | #631 |
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Quote:
It's almost like his character was depicted since his youth to be a cowardly, pig-headed, pompous slimeball who only gets into power through familial connections and manipulation and has no right to be there or something...
He acts like that when eyes aren't on him and saves face when they are. Extreme or not, it fits the role. It sounds more like "This is violent ergo it's overly edgy" is the stance here when there's plenty of media out there with the same level, if not more, that also have something to say and say it well. So the fact of the matter is that the Black Sun did not do it well. Or at least not good enough, because I remember the flurry of negativity that hit the show after the release. To me, he's more of a BvS rider version: few people like him, but those who get hooked just adore him. Plus, your show is both mundane and extreme at the same time. I doubt that it can be combined in principle. |
07-27-2023, 04:28 PM | #632 |
I'm an agile cat.
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I didn't have a problem with Black Sun's violence.
I had a problem with it having nothing at all to do with Kamen Rider Black. And being just contrived as hell in the way it ended. It was definitely a show that thought it was way smarter than it was. I actually liked Shin more in contrast, since it actually felt like a re-imagining of the original Kamen Rider, rather than a pretentious nameslap. (even if it was strangely edited and overstuffed) |
07-27-2023, 04:28 PM | #633 |
Suprise Gamma Future
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I always find it funny that people can declare that a show is too violent when said violence pales in comparison to violence that happens in the actual real world.
The violence in Black Sun is necessary to depict the atrocity and severity of the historical events it is invoking. All sorts of action movies depict horrendous violence but people are desensitized to gun violence, off-screen violence, or violence against "others" (think about all the fodder aliens in Avengers, henchmen in John Wick, etc). The end result is the same in all these cases: loss of life. I think people tend to conflate edgey nihilism with the repudiation of tragedy especially when we seek escapism from entertainment. Black Sun took nothing away from the mainline Kamen Rider series, heck we even got a full fledged big budget Kamen Rider movie within a year of its release. Kamen Rider proves to be a diverse property and it's impossible for all of it to land for everyone. I'm glad they tried something different and I think the show adds a richness to the IP.
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07-28-2023, 07:11 AM | #634 |
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Which one Shin? |
07-28-2023, 07:25 AM | #635 |
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Quote:
I always find it funny that people can declare that a show is too violent when said violence pales in comparison to violence that happens in the actual real world.
The violence in Black Sun is necessary to depict the atrocity and severity of the historical events it is invoking. All sorts of action movies depict horrendous violence but people are desensitized to gun violence, off-screen violence, or violence against "others" (think about all the fodder aliens in Avengers, henchmen in John Wick, etc). The end result is the same in all these cases: loss of life. I think people tend to conflate edgey nihilism with the repudiation of tragedy especially when we seek escapism from entertainment. Black Sun took nothing away from the mainline Kamen Rider series, heck we even got a full fledged big budget Kamen Rider movie within a year of its release. Kamen Rider proves to be a diverse property and it's impossible for all of it to land for everyone. I'm glad they tried something different and I think the show adds a richness to the IP. As for the fact that they kill everywhere and a lot, then yes. And in children's shows, including. In Geats, for example, for some reason, killing a Jamato with the personality of a dead person is normal, but killing a person turned into a brainless Jamato is bad. But just because a problem is widespread doesn't mean it's no longer a problem. |
07-28-2023, 08:56 AM | #636 |
Suprise Gamma Future
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Pontification on the explicit depiction of violence on a show about civil disorder and authoritarian regimes is entirely missing the point. It's like watching a riot and overlooking the cause for the riot because the method makes you uncomfortable. Like, that is the whole point- that violence is ugly, unforgiving, and should not be glossed over. Imagine trying to depict racism without violence; that's a tacit acceptance of being a benefactor of the status quo because they are so innately intertwined.
I would agree that Black Sun tends to heighten violence and gore, but I think it does so commensurate to our levels of desensitization. Take for example the ESRB Game Ratings board and how violent depictions in video games today get much lower T/M ratings than those same games would have gotten in the past. I would simply ask that you look at why, not how Black Sun chooses the direction it does. Context is extremely important and we often forget that the term edgy used to label media that pushed boundaries. Here is an article about the hypocrisy in violent entertainment: https://supreme.findlaw.com/legal-co...hostel-ii.html It's fairly short and worth a read. I'm not here to say anyone is wrong about their feelings for the show. As someone who abhors violence the more and more I get older, I've had to constantly re-examine my relationship with much of tokusatsu.
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07-28-2023, 10:24 AM | #637 |
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Quote:
Jordan Peele in Get Out did a good job of it. Quote:
I would agree that Black Sun tends to heighten violence and gore, but I think it does so commensurate to our levels of desensitization.
And that makes it part of the problem. We have low empathy for violence, so movies have to get bloodier to impress us, so the level of empathy goes down even more. This is a road to nowhere and sooner or later you will have to turn off it. Plus, I don?t understand why fantasy is chosen to show extra-violence (this now applies not only to the Black Sun, but in general). In more realistic genres, it would be easier to arouse empathy in the audience. Quote:
I would simply ask that you look at why, not how Black Sun chooses the direction it does. Context is extremely important and we often forget that the term edgy used to label media that pushed boundaries.
Quote:
Here is an article about the hypocrisy in violent entertainment:
https://supreme.findlaw.com/legal-co...hostel-ii.html It's fairly short and worth a read. I'm not here to say anyone is wrong about their feelings for the show. As someone who abhors violence the more and more I get older, I've had to constantly re-examine my relationship with much of tokusatsu. |
07-28-2023, 02:42 PM | #638 |
Avi by @CSarracenian
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 4,186
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Quote:
Jordan Peele in Get Out did a good job of it.
And that makes it part of the problem. We have low empathy for violence, so movies have to get bloodier to impress us, so the level of empathy goes down even more. This is a road to nowhere and sooner or later you will have to turn off it. Plus, I don?t understand why fantasy is chosen to show extra-violence (this now applies not only to the Black Sun, but in general). In more realistic genres, it would be easier to arouse empathy in the audience. And the problem is that the Black Sun did not cope with this. Again, the topic dedicated to him confirms this. And the wrong message sometimes only hurts. I agree with the article for the most part. Perhaps my position is that it is important to understand that hyper-violence does not equal reality. A dystopia is just as impossible as a utopia. As someone who is in a country at war, I can safely say that in war the best and worst manifestations of human nature are encountered in almost the same way and none of them outweigh the others. Actually, even the war itself takes place only so that there is peace in another corner of the globe. EDIT: https://youtu.be/iGhaQ5P1OBs I would like to make it clear that my main point here is that I believe the physical violence to be meaningful rather than cheap shock value, it can help to visualize the brutality of the societal issues the show wishes to handle to an audience who may not be affected
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Last edited by Annuga; 07-28-2023 at 02:49 PM.. |
07-28-2023, 03:00 PM | #639 |
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I agree with the folks who didn't like Black Sun, but I think I have different reasons.
I thought the hyper-violence was well-executed and genuinely shocking at times. I thought it tried to tackle some interesting, meaty themes. But ultimately, it was atrociously paced. There is virtually no plot development for long stretches of time, and then, just when you think something exciting is about to happen... it is undercut by weak attempts at grounded realism. The lack of momentum would be fine if it had been supplemented with compelling character work, but the main characters are mostly thinly drawn replicas of Professor X and Magneto. It's a lot of retread narrative ground. A lot of been-there-done-that vibes. I think Black Sun was handicapped by the choice to make it a series instead of a movie. It is a prime example of a story that has enough content for two hours that was stretched out to roughly eight in order to fill Amazon's demand for a streaming series. |
07-28-2023, 03:48 PM | #640 |
TokuKnight89
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The discussion of violence in media and the apparent dichotomy between Black Sun and Amazons reminds me of this article excerpt:
"The final fight against N-Daguva-Zeba is a culmination of the tragedy of being a Kamen Rider. With the threat of his Ultimate Form looming over him, Godai faces N-Daguva-Zeba alone. Their fight is so brutal that they both return to their human forms, resorting to punching each other with bloodied knuckles until only one of them is left alive.....To me, this is what Showa and Early Heisei is really about. Beyond the fun fight scenes and the morals taught to children, it is fundamentally a reminder that despite the appeal of violence in media, it should not be glorified. Being a Kamen Rider is a burden that is nobly carried, and rarely something to be happy about." https://tokusatsunetwork.com/2021/06...-a-good-thing/ |
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