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08-29-2019, 07:25 PM | #61 |
WONDER RIDER
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,727
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Just pointing out that when Sougo reset the timeline, the Blade Riders were most likely restored to their original fate. So no happy ending for them.
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08-29-2019, 10:07 PM | #62 |
Showa Girl
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 9,064
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But like, the second Rider Fight didn't happen, Aqua didn't die and the Kiva arc never existed; so overall I'd say it balances out. |
08-30-2019, 12:28 AM | #63 |
Avi by @CSarracenian
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 4,186
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If Sougo was able to warp reality to bring Geiz, Tsukuyomi, Uhr and Ora to his timeline, and his time specifically, one can easily assume Sougo changed the timeline for the other worlds too, Ohma Zi-O controls time AND space after all
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08-30-2019, 12:51 AM | #64 |
NinninComic
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 745
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after watching it again I feel like I see what i disliked most in Zi-O.
The acting. I don't like to dispraise actors and I know it's not necessarily top notch acting in KR in general but. damn. The Geiz dying scene. I don't believe it even for a second. And the "urgh urgh" and faces of Swartz when he is on his knees near the end. I feel like watching 7 years old kids playing police and thieves and that's exactly the kind of noises and face a kid would do when he is "hit" by a "bullet". Best acting moments of the show were probably the scenes between Sougo and his Uncle that were always touching. Probably thanks to the uncle actor I would say. |
08-30-2019, 06:26 AM | #65 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 260
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I liked how the old final bosses got a couple of scenes showcasing their powers. Evolt's suit acting was great too. It really gave the sense that Oma Zi-O was powerful when he beat them, rather than the usual we often get with returning suit villains in that they just feel like grunts.
They really should have given Swartz a second form or something though so that Grand could beat him before he uses that. It's weird how Grand gets all this build up and in the end pretty much accomplished nothing relevant aside from beating Another Zi-O II (Another Den-O and Another Drive too, but could be beaten just with standard Rider Armors...) Kamen Rider Tsukuyomi really feels like a last minute addition. She only appears in two scenes, with no actual battle choreography, which easily might have been added after the fact, alongside with tweaking Tsukasa's plan. Quote:
Even in Japan, looking at 5ch, people are debating about where the movie might be placed (During the show? Unrelated AU? The end of the new timeline? Funny thing about the last one is that the world split would be undone in that case).Since in the movie the Quartzers were pushing the same fusion of worlds plot, but intending to recreate the worlds, but the recreate part is stopped and then the world is just left as it is. Quote:
This is more a personal disappointment but I am bummed that we never got any returning actors from Kuuga. Here would have been a perfect place to have that cameo. As a finale to Zi-O it has its own set of problems, but as the end of the entire Heisei era in a show dedicated to bringing back legends? I know its a tall order but it could have been a lot more bombastic? Like I wanted to see an all-out Rider war. The return of the 20 main suits. The future Riders - would have been cool to see them contribute in the final battle instead of being forgotten about. Maybe some more legend faces in a montage like they did for Gokaiger? The main thing that kept me and many others invested in this show was the anniversary element of it. They tried with the core Zi-O story but it definitely isn't enough and it shows really badly here. There's no excitement, nothing to get hyped over. Well, except Oma Zi-O.
It seems like they forgot all Riders that didn't lose their powers in the more recent arcs, who should have popped up to fight the monsters, and no follow up to the future Riders at all was disappointing too. Quote:
It was never happening under Shirakura though, since he dislikes suit-only characters due to how badly they were used in Black RX (which he openly criticized back when he first was hired by Toei, shortly after it aired). He only brings them out in movies because it's a cheap way to make money (but even so mostly for final battles). Last edited by NeonZ; 08-30-2019 at 06:52 AM.. |
08-30-2019, 02:26 PM | #66 |
I have a problematic type
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,426
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08-31-2019, 05:05 PM | #67 |
The Immortal King Tasty
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Every diner you've ever been to.
Posts: 3,833
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Hey everyone, guess what time it is!
Time, at last, to rejoice, for the epic finale of Kamen Rider Zi-O has descended upon us! *sees overwhelming amounts of disappointment from the rest of the thread* ... Alright, to be fair, there's a lot to unpack here, and not all of it is pleasant. I guess to start upfront with my overall opinion, I was... satisfied? It's a hard feeling to describe. I'm writing this having just finished the episode, and it met my expectations well enough to leave me entertained, while also not going beyond them enough to make this quite the event I hoped it would be. Perhaps with some time and distance I'll have a more concrete opinion in one direction or the other, but I'm obviously not going to wait like half a year to make this post. So for now, this finale absolutely encapsulates everything that was Zi-O, good and ill. There's a lot of the usual confused nonsense, and a lot of plot points that mostly go somewhere, but don't feel like they were entirely figured out before they were put to film. I still can't tell you who Woz actually is, I still don't know what the origin of his jerkier counterpart was (was he like the Woz from Swartz's world?), I'm still unsure why they made such a point of Sougo's power over time growing in the middle of the series to the point where he may or may not have been literally dreaming up the future when he spent the back chunk of it getting kicked around in his own final form... and most pertinent to this episode, I don't know why they choose to go with this whole plan on the heroes' part that required Tsukuyomi to become a Rider when she doesn't actually get to do any cool Rider things. I think the show is taking it for granted that we'll see her sudden betrayal as some big moment to get us invested in how the story will end, but unfortunately it's simply not possible, even for someone like me who loves this show, to feel directly invested in Tsukuyomi's character for this to land. I know enough about her to realize what she's actually doing, and worse yet, I don't care enough about her to be worried. It's the worst possible combination, and Zi-O's endgame could've done with a lot fewer people pretending to shift their allegiance like this. It made sense for Kaitou, because he was trying to slip in and steal some crap, but if your entire goal is simply to stab Swartz, I don't even know why you would bother with all the theatrics. I suppose you could very cynically argue that's just Zi-O's way of paying tribute to the Heisei era's grand tradition of screwing over female Riders at every opportunity, but yeesh do I ever feel sorry for Tsukuyomi. All that distaste I had for her early on has been transformed to pity at this point. Poor thing is nominally the third most important character in the show, yet only ever got to stand around looking and sounding extremely depressed while being entirely at the mercy of other characters, not even allowed enough control over her own life to do the whole dramatic fake traitor thing without immediately getting murdered for the trouble. She may be a boring plank of wood, but she's a plank of wood I kind of want to give a hug to. Moving on to important characters numbers one and two, we've got Geiz, who is kind of barely in this episode, weirdly enough, but his one big scene is great. It's obvious, yeah, and it can't help but remind one of Ryuki's penultimate episode, which I think had a lot more emotional complexity going on, but this is the logical endpoint for his character, and it delivers. I'm sorry if you hated Geiz, but he's right up there with Zeronos in terms of my favorite secondary Riders, and I've been waiting the entire season for him to call Sougo by his name. So to see them hold it back right up until the end? To have Geiz finally take down that last little emotional barrier as he sacrifices his own life to save Sougo, so certain of his inherent goodness after all they've been through together, that his dying wish is for Sougo to become Oma Zi-O? Can the dramatic timing here be anymore perfect? Consider my heartstrings thoroughly tugged, alright? I'm only human. As for the main man himself, Sougo is great here, but I'm uncertain if this is the perfect possible resolution to his journey. The buildup to the final showdown is solid, and while I've said this a lot before, putting him with his uncle is a recipe for a good scene that always works, especially in this case, with the ultimate payoff to Junichirou always looking for an excuse to fix a clock. Where it starts becoming slightly embarrassing is that Sougo immediately wastes all that hard work with yet another subpar effort from Grand Zi-O. Which is something I've also said a lot before, and man is that depressing. Granted, they finally remembered to do something cool with his powers again, and getting to hear Eiji doing his usual "Sei-yah!!", stock audio or not, wins the episode major bonus points for me, but the problem is, they finally stepped up their game to the level I want... just in time for it to be the finale, which further raises my expectations. I know something crazy outrageous like finding 40 suit actors to have every Heisei Rider versus every final boss (or nearest equivalent) was unfeasible, although I get the feeling cheating it through the usual trick of a few composite shots and then just having a few characters on screen at the same time probably would've been a completely realistic option to let them do something that awesome (in fact, I'm pretty sure that's what they did for the big Another Rider throwdown in 43), but at least summon Kuuga, for f***'s sake! Have him use Clock Up! Have the epic golden royal Rider lineup of my dreams like I was saying at the end of the Another Zi-O II arc! This is the problem with a final form that has this much potential. There was never any way they going to truly tap it, but I did expect them to get more out of it then they did. Going back to the bit about plot points in this show that only mostly went somewhere, I'm not sure what good building up the idea of him needing the Drive Ride Watch did when it didn't make any discernible difference when he finally had it. But wait, Grand Zi-O isn't his final form, is it? Of course not. Because the show thankfully remembered to do the one thing it absolutely had to do above all else in my eyes, and actually show us Sougo becoming Oma Zi-O. They didn't cheat their way out of it. It didn't just happen in some dream sequence or something stupid. He really did it. The transformation was really cool. He really blew through all those major Rider villains like it was nothing, and the icy yet enraged tone of his dialogue really did make it feel somewhat unnerving even though he's not doing anything evil. The intensity of that entire section of the episode reminded me a lot of Gaim's final showdown in terms of how downbeat it feels. Zi-O is defeating the bad guy, yeah, but it just doesn't come off as a triumphant moment, and I like something about that. I also like the workaround the show did find to explain how Sougo could be an evil overlord in the future, but also not become an evil overlord. I can't even complain that saying it's the friends he made along the way is trite or sugary, because all his friends are legitimately from the future and a result of history being altered. They actually are the big difference between the two of them, and I think the show effectively capitalized on that in these last few episodes. Now, about that resolution. I really don't mind it at all. There are things about the way it plays out where I think it could've been improved. I don't think it's immediately obvious from the dialogue as written exactly what the show is going for with Sougo's decision as a resolution to his character's story, and like some of the more obtuse bits of Geiz's arc, it's hard for me to blame anyone for coming to whatever conclusions they have. My read of it is that this is yet again, a Rider show pulling a "reset button" ending that actually isn't about putting things back at all, and in this particular case, I think it stays very true to how Sougo's character has developed over the course of the series. It certainly had nothing to do with Sougo giving up his dream of becoming a king, because he makes it clear he considers this a mild roadblock at worst. His last words to his once-future self are especially telling. No matter what it looks like, this was about moving forward, and trying something new. He freed everyone who was manipulated by Swartz to finally have a shot at a normal life, and the optimism he shows while doing this is the pinnacle of the attitude he's had ever since the earliest parts of the show. From that speech in the second episode, to the debut of Zi-O II, to the very end, Sougo was always all about having the faith to choose the future for yourself, and to push forward on that path no matter how uncertain or scary tomorrow seems, and that's pretty much exactly what happened here. Heck, even the lyrics of Over Quartzer match up almost perfectly with the ending. So I definitely don't think this choice was a mistake. The redundancy coming right after Build is unfortunate, but in its own right this ending made a ton of sense for the show on a thematic level, and it sits a lot better with me than I expected as a result. Honestly, if I could change one thing about the episode, I think it would've been a very nice cherry on top if the end of the episode had changed the usual "thanks for supporting (insert show here) over the last year" message to "thanks for supporting Heisei Rider over the last 20 years". Or at least maybe put it in the actual episode like it used to be instead of exiling it to the sponsor segment, please? I mean, I complained about this when Build ended too, and I get the feeling I'm the only who cares, but I liked seeing that at the end of a Rider show every year, formality or not. With all that said, I think that's a wrap on Zi-O for now. This show was absolutely not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but for my money, Zi-O had an ability to consistently rise above its rough edges in a way that kept things from ever getting too frustrating. Way back at the start of all of this, I framed the show like this... Quote:
I feel like there's this kind of meta dimension to Zi-O, because the character is trying to defy fate by becoming a nice evil king, and the show is trying to defy fate by pulling off almost the exact same plot as Decade. As long as it has an actual ending, I guess it can't be too bad, right?
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08-31-2019, 05:19 PM | #68 |
Warrior of Delusions!
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Wait, you dont know either?
Posts: 5,826
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You know, Fish, I may not entirely be on your side when it comes to Ghost, but I think you and me are on the same wavelength when it comes to Zi-O. Sure, it's nowhere near the best series ever, but I've grown to love it, and Geiz is seriously underrated (just because his character development isn't spelled out for us every second, it's not like it isn't there!). Tsukuyomi deserved better, especially here, and Grand Zi-O could have put up a better showing... but I'm still glad I watched it to the end, and not just for the cameos. That scene of Decade and Diend watching the new world, smiling as it goes down, is just how I feel.
I've got my own thoughts how all the multiverse stuff works, I might make a big essay on it at some point, but that's another day's problem.
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Check out my occasional ramblings! https://akibamusings.blogspot.com/
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08-31-2019, 06:23 PM | #69 |
Showa Girl
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 9,064
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I'm a bit more negative on Zi-O - though still ultimately like it - but I'd agree on so much of what you said. The high points being the main cast with the exception of Tsukuyomi having pitifully little to her; Grand Zi-O being disappointing; Oma Zi-O being an incredible moment; yeah. I STILL can't stop thinking about the fact Oma Zi-O obliterated Dragblacker in one punch -- there were definitely more impressive and powerful villains there, but the way that was shot and done just my GOD.
I think it's taken me a while to decide how I feel about the episode. Many parts of it feel rushed - Tsukiyomi actually being a Rider; Geiz even existing; Woz, Decade and Diend just sort of disappearing after Sougo shows up - and this all kinda starts to make sense when you hear that the writers felt all the stuff they wanted to do would have worked better with 2 or 3 episodes. This is actually a problem I strangely have with Zi-O -- often with Rider I feel that there's very few series that really desperately needed a full 45-50 episode run, or for all their episodes to be ~22 minutes. But Zi-O as a series feels incredibly stressed for time for everything it needs to tell, with there being practically no breathers or any space between SOMETHING significant happening; whether it be a tribute or a new toy episode or something. Most of the time the New Toy episodes are conflated with tributes, and it's hard to forget that even the FIRST EPISODE was conflated with a tribute! And then there's so much other stuff they didn't do, like a Kuuga tribute or a proper one to W. I at once feel sorry for and want to applaud the writers for doing what they could to do everything they wanted or needed to do in some fashion, but it's clear that if any series needed some more time; by god it is this one. Regardless, I still feel very conflicted about the ending; even ignoring Build comparisons. Though to stay on them for just a second, this definitely at least feels slightly more... morally acceptable than Build's, I guess? Like at least there weren't people running screaming from Sento's Combine The Worlds wave, or the visuals and explanations of it all making it look like a whole universe just died. But something about the whole thing still feels sorta... off. I think the big thing for me is that Geiz, Tsukuyomi and the Timejackers are now plucked directly from their timestreams and worlds with no decision or knowledge on their part, for reasons that feel almost like Because Sougo Wanted It. I know they were almost certainly going for "everyone gets a happy ending", but something about it just feels so wrong and selfish on Sougo's part that I couldn't fully get into it. Uhr and Ora in particular almost feel like their personalities have been forcibly change to remove their worst aspects, and all of it feels just a bit creepy to me. Zi-O as a whole though? I really can't say I disliked it, and if I can hate Build's ending yet still consider it my second favourite series; I certainly can't say Zi-O's ending lets down the series for me. The stretch of 17-28 of Future Riders, Another Zi-O, Zi-O II and Geiz Revive is still an absolute thrill, and the second part of Ryuga/Zi-O II in particular is not just my favourite Zi-O episode, but also one of my favourite Rider episodes ever. Many of the tributes had so many things to enjoy -- how well they played with the legacy in that Kuroto Dan works extremely well for an OOO foil; how much I can respect the sheer audacity of focusing a Hibiki tribute on redeeming Kiriya no matter how well I feel it's done; the absolute fun of Den-O that shows exactly why that series never left; basically every microsecond of Agito that showcases a great love of that series; and the incredible mix-and-match fun of the Dark Rider arc are all things that are sticking with me. The first ten or so episodes and the Kiva tribute aside, I really fail to name a bad tribute this series had. Like... I dunno. I feel this is a series that had a very large amount of positive pieces to it; but aside from that middle section I consistently praise, it rarely ever felt like it truly came together cohesively for me. Even Decade at least was consistently confusing, so it came together in... some bizarre way. It's why I'm not rating Zi-O too highly, but it's certainly got too many good moments and too much fun to truly call a bad show. It was a good ride, in many ways a good way to send off the era; but I'm quite happy to move onto a new story now. |
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