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10-16-2018, 11:43 PM | #11 |
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Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Brisbane,Australia
Posts: 349
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This wasn't a bad episode. Zi-O is slowly improving through each episode and the character development between Sougo and Geiz was needed. Also, Woz is beginning to develop more as well, hinting that he may or may not agree with the new path that Sougo is paving for himself. It's possible that this is the writer paving a way for Woz to becoming Kamen Rider Woz. Maybe as a way to push Sougo into becoming Oma-Zio? We'll see what the future episodes show.
Also, Librarian, barnstenchfartface and catwhowalks are just trying to explain that maybe your theory is incorrect, they're not lecturing you. The '-kun' honorific is very commonly used to refer to someone who is younger or of lower status. It really isn't that deep. However, we're only 7 episodes into the series so it's possible your theory could be right, if proven true. You don't need to be this aggressive/standoffish to support your theory. And ironically and hypocritically, you're coming off as a arrogant fanboy with how you're acting. It's rude to imply that those two or any who think or perceive things like them are (in your words) "too dense and oblivious" just because you perceived something that may or may not have a deeper meaning.
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10-17-2018, 02:03 AM | #12 |
Warrior of Delusions!
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Wait, you dont know either?
Posts: 5,826
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Wizard was the first Kamen Rider I watched live, so to speak. Sure, it has it's faults, but I love it. And this episode, just recapturing that feel, made it "magic" to me. The return of the old two-part structure, all the spells (I loved how they kept Haruto's favourite tactic, 'spamming DEFEND until you think of a plan'), and it's nice to see how the Another Rider this time is a smart, rational enough person to be able to lie low for... 6 years?
Wow, I feel old. And this episode also has good character development. From our three factions meeting up at once for the first time, to Geiz and Zi-O obviously heading towards the lesson of "Sometimes different methods can work, and that's okay", to Sougo being really chill around Woz. Like, weirdly chill. Wizard is an easy way to my heart, and this one's winning. Now, give me mayonnaise while I wait for next week. ((Also, Librarian, as usually, stop treating the wildest theories I've ever heard as facts and pretending people are too "stupid" if they don't agree with you. You're not from the future, you're not a prophet, right now, you're just being a rude nuisance.))
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10-19-2018, 08:34 AM | #13 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Tokyo, Las Vegas, & Honolulu
Posts: 180
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Unless librarian is Japanese, he has no perspective on how it should be used and I'm pretty sure he isn't because his Takumi example is wrong to me. Takumi just didn't like people getting close to him. It wasn't an insult to him. He pushed people away for most of the season. Keitaro is the kindest person on Faiz and he clearly liked Takumi or he would have sneezed around him. If you want to see examples of insults in Faiz then go read most of the bartender lady's subbed dialogue where she puts almost everyone down.
Last edited by HattoriHanzoIII; 10-19-2018 at 08:43 AM.. |
10-20-2018, 11:46 PM | #14 |
Member
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Canada
Posts: 345
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It was a pretty good Rider episode in general, the drama was good and we got some good character moments from the main cast. Not a great Wizard tribute on the other hand, but hopefully the next episode will deliver with Beast making a return.
7.5 was boring for the most part (kind of cool to see cut scenes) but the ending made up for it. Pure comedy genius. |
10-21-2018, 06:40 AM | #15 |
Hacktivist
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,112
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Holy shit, how can it be when someone is corrected that they manage to come back with an even more pompous, know-it-all attitude?
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10-21-2018, 07:51 AM | #16 |
Showa Girl
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 9,064
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Zi-O's own plot is starting to be a bit more intriguing to me thanks to Still-The-Best-Character Woz -- not only are we seeing a couple more layers to him than enthused loyalist, but that scene with him and Geiz implies they have a lot more backstory with each other. I initially thought that due to being an Anniversary season it wouldn't be delved into too much; that these characters just have Time Travel and Belts and the Drive/Ghost Ridewatches and know each other just because, but it seems there's more to it. Looking forward to that now. It certainly helps that the intro implies some sort of link between Tsukiyomi and the Time Jackers...
Buuuut where this season is ultimately falling down for me is the tributes. I was willing to look past Build's due to that being hashed together with the intro episode; that being just the first tribute; and later finding out that they didn't know how Build was going to end so they had no idea what to do. But these tributes have honestly been a complete travesty -- we learn nothing about these past characters or why they're great, the episodes don't nail down anything about what we loved about these series whether narrative or thematic or in leitmotif; we don't even get to see the Riders half the time! Fourze and Faiz basically got cameos, and now Wizard gets a flashback! I'm glad that next episode apparently at least has Beast getting in on the action, but this is kind of depressing. I thought that scene from the second episode with Build and Cross-Z lining up in a team-up with Zi-O and Geiz would be a standard for the tribute episodes, but instead we get... basically nothing. I'm really sorry to come across as so annoyed, but Zi-O really, really feels like it does not get any of these seasons or what makes them so great or what was unique about them. Swap out magic for Samurais or Detectives and this episode could quite literally have been done with any rider.
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10-23-2018, 04:02 PM | #17 |
New Member
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 74
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I agree and disagree.
Fourze had the best tribute thus far helping give us a view of Fourze's world presently and the friendship themes of its seasons. But that's all the good I have to say about the tributes. Beast's "hennnnnn." was cool to see but without Haruto I was prepared to be disappointed. The problem is they never really integrate the flavour of the show into the main plot which Gokaiger always did, albeit overtly. And that's what I wanted out of Zi-0, to be the Gokaiger of Kamen Rider. Not Decade II. |
10-23-2018, 04:52 PM | #18 |
Omnipresent Historian
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: In the now.
Posts: 707
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Quote:
Also, Librarian, barnstenchfartface and catwhowalks are just trying to explain that maybe your theory is incorrect, they're not lecturing you. The '-kun' honorific is very commonly used to refer to someone who is younger or of lower status. It really isn't that deep. However, we're only 7 episodes into the series so it's possible your theory could be right, if proven true.
And that's by text book on the honorific, in practice, if you pay attention to wide media in Japan. It is indeed used as I said more by familiarity and usually causes offense if you randomly use it on someone, or you'll be viewed as slightly condescending or trying to be overtly familiar. Same as the more cutesy upbeat -chan suffix. Though that is a more direct familiarity or cheerful usage for endearment, usually not with condescension tones, though can depending on how it's used. That one's more tone and what's being said based. Whereas -kun is more belittling direct because of how it directly says "below the speaker"(either by age, experience, or position, but usually more often refers to age/experience but is a different acceptance between friends/normal everyday interactions due to familiarity of who it is being said to, in which case it's used as a "fondness" remark). Not much different than similar old people phrases when they talk down to someone below their age, unless they are familiar with the person, it's viewed as disparaging/patronizing. The same instance here with how Woz is using it on Tsukuyomi. He's directly calling her "Young and naive" without saying it word for word, but is implying that "she's not as learned in these matters as he but she will be over time". Visually, this is also heightened by positioning to carry the dialogue more directly. Which is a universally common film technique. (I also gave media references that correspond to this, and can give more. But like I said, Faiz seemed rather poignant to bring up, because it was a very big deal in Faiz that Takumi hated being called Tak-kun, and this is right after the Faiz episodes. But literally every anime and live show of the last 20+ years, if you pay attention, it's used more by familiarity and less as a granted, usually only those that are at minimum friends, or some other kind of direct interaction relationship, sometimes a crush. Rarely to never a full stranger unless it's to belittle or patronize.) It's the difference in learning from a text book and paying attention to native speakers(or paying attention wrong). All languages have words like that. Like there's a spanish word that by textbook isn't that big of a deal, but in practice, it's actually a native language slang term the text book teachings wouldn't cover. German and other languages have these too. Same as English has those to those learning it by textbook over native speaker practice. If you take a conversational class with a native speaking teacher, they'll even tell you this. It was one of the things my teacher covered within the first couple of weeks. So I'm going to take his word as a native Japanese speaker over some random person from the internet any day. (I took Conversational Modern Japanese, but dropped it before learning all the katakana and Kanji. One of the lesson plans covered was the various suffix. I actually do complain about how bad subs are quite often, but on this one, I actually have to side with the subbers on. For intent and detail usage, the subbers were right on word choice. Though I do still giggle about how they changed "memo" to "note". But that was more them screwing around likely. Self-taught will also miss this detail normally unless they are observant to conversational nuance.) So my comment on their arrogance was in the assumption they think I don't know anything about the language. Which they would be surprised about because of my line of work and how long I've been doing my line of work. So yeah, it gets very old getting "lectured" by others when I'm well aware of something. It's like how "mansplaining" is really annoying. Though it's especially annoying when it's blatantly wrong and perpetuating ignorance. And they're ignoring visual evidence of such right in front of them in the scene construction/positioning itself as well as the surrounding details. So yeah, I think hitting their arrogance & ignorance back "aggressively" is appropriate(especially considering the opening remark on their part was condemnation using their own ignorance). These are the kind of fans that'd blatantly argue with writers or producers over details they had put into a show. If they were offering something factual or contributing then sure I'd thank them. Instead they're arguing ignorance. They are either ignorant on conversational Japanese, or are blatantly trying to hide a detail by butchering language usage and nuance. So out of the options, it's either they're ignorant and trying to act smart or wanting people to not notice what's blatantly there. Either one isn't a troll type I feel like putting up with. We have enough ignorance in the fandom that thinks things are true that blatantly aren't. If they want to take it up with someone, then they should aim their complaints at the subbers, but in this instance, the sub group is correct in their assessment, so I don't see that going over well for them either. Watch any anime or live show, and you'll notice this on the suffix too. It's very rarely used on non-familiar people, and when it is, it's usually eye roll inducing in the body language of the person it's being said to. More often, to non-familiar people, the suffix is dropped. Or the proper suffix is used for respectfulness(-san), like how in english generally we used to use "sir" or "ma'am". Except in rare occasions of elders and children, but even then it's patronizing technically. A nicety form to try and invoke friendly familiarity, but still. So what I said about the scene still stands. -Kun was used deliberately there for an emphatic point. To disregard that, is to disregard a detail the show itself is trying to hit you over the head with blatantly. Especially with Woz's deliberate positioning in the scene to say the line. Which is to deliberately carry the point even more emphatically. It's a universal film technique used as such, one of the most basic and obvious. So saying to "ignore it" is to deliberately miss a point the show is trying to make. Which as we've seen time and time again, the show will spell out directly for the viewer later anyway(in this instance, it stalled that by having her sleep through Woz's help). But here is indeed an early hint of it intentionally. Which makes sense why the subbers chose "young". It's not as patronizing as "little" but gets the emphatic nature across that's intended more than using -kun because of how oblivious foreign language viewers are to details. Trying to argue otherwise is to deliberately force yourself into ignorance of the scene itself. Especially since Woz doesn't use that to refer to Tsukuyomi any other time. So it was indeed to prod/goad her, like how he was teasing Geiz too in the episode. Last edited by Librarian; 10-23-2018 at 11:55 PM.. |
10-23-2018, 05:02 PM | #19 |
Warrior of Delusions!
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Wait, you dont know either?
Posts: 5,826
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Quote:
So my comment on their arrogance was in the assumption they think I don't know anything about the language. Which they would actually be surprised about because of my line of work and how long I've been doing this stuff. So yeah, it gets very old getting "lectured" by others when I'm well aware of something. It's like how "mansplaining" is really annoying, especially when it's wrong.
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10-24-2018, 03:19 AM | #20 |
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Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 2,934
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Quote:
And I'm still unsure that you're actually a master of the Japanese language arts, no detail escaping your notice, given how much significance you give to the fact that you claim this was the first and only time Woz referred to her in this way, for a specific situational purpose, which is why we should all stop to consider the major ramifications of this very deliberate scene. The only problem being that he calls her that five minutes into this episode, and he also calls her that in episode 2.* So maybe you just held off on this super important major character analysis for five episodes just for fun, or maybe you just haven't been paying enough attention. Which is okay. Foreign fanboys are notoriously oblivious to detail. *admittedly, not to her directly, but I'd say that's easily another flaw in your argument, though I brought it up before. There's no basis for comparison. This was the first time he called her "Tsukuyomi-kun" to her face, but it's also literally the first time he calls her anything to her face. You're at best trying to build significance out of the rarity of something that just happened for the first time, and that's not how that works Honestly, at this point I've completely lost track of what your argument is even supposed to be beyond trying to save face. Just trying to spin things really hard so that your original idea that calling a young person young is only and directly because they know their older self from the future makes any sense to anybody, I guess. It is a time travel series, so it may as well, but I don't think any more long winded paragraphs are gonna help convince anybody that one suffix is really as meaningful as you think it is. In any case, I realize this post probably comes across as more condescending and aggressive than it warrants, but, my dude, yikes. |
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