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01-28-2021, 10:58 AM | #821 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
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Like you said, it's definitely a throwback to earlier Kabuto, but it's a specific character dynamic that's been absent since Hiyori originally left and it's so good to see them back together again, Tendou being an arrogant jerk and Hiyori passive aggressively snarking at him. I have missed this so much.
I'm not going to hit on a lot of that (sounds like you are not an Ex-Aid fan!), but I would argue that the fact that most of Ex-Aid being about characters who can't/won't work together is why it's a great example of telling stories about teamwork. It's a long story about putting aside ego and resentment to find some way towards collaboration. You need the bulk of the show to be about four martyrs trying to jump on the same grenade to get to the point where they support each other and cooperate, have that feel earned. That's the story working as intended!
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01-28-2021, 01:25 PM | #822 |
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Yeah, I wasn’t hating on Ex-Aid (I think it’s good, but not great). I was hating on the people who say that the show that has a cast of 9 working together flawlessly 1/8th of the way into a show is worse at portraying teamwork than the show that had less characters doing so 2/3rds of the way in.
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01-28-2021, 07:00 PM | #823 |
The Immortal King Tasty
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So here's some more of that Native Nonsense I can actually remember about the show's last stretch. After 46 managed to get some visceral emotion out of me, the epic final trilogy for Kabuto begins with... some weird plot about necklaces that detect Worms? I mean, when Die says this one feels like it could've happened forty episodes ago, that really makes it click for me why I remember not even remotely getting into this one originally. What I also remember from this one is finding Kagami's regressive behavior supremely frustrating only a couple episodes after dramatically declaring to super tough purple guy that he could never understand the bond between him and Tendou. Like, it legitimately soured my overall opinion on Kagami in the long term a bit. I remembered this very incorrectly! It was kind of a shock to come back to this episode and find that, as Die pointed out, Kagami is very specifically one of the few characters who gets a chance to act like he's had a year of development, only to get totally stonewalled by Tendou, who seems to think it's still January 2006, and not 2007. I guess his New Year's resolution was to go back to his roots as an uncommunicative jerk, for some reason. That being said, I, uh, do still understand how I came to the conclusion I did. It's the same thing Kagami immediately figures out; Tendou is obviously doing everything he's doing for a good reason. Kagami gets frustrated when Tendou won't say what that reason is. As a viewer, though, not only am I conditioned to accept this kind of behavior from him, I've also been given a reason. When Juka expresses interest in grabbing one of the aforementioned necklaces ZECT is giving away, he spells it out as succinctly as possible – there's nothing more expensive than a free gift. It's as plain as can be that something sketchy is going on with the Natives right now, and as such, even when Tendou is deflecting bullets into Renge, I have a hard time being anything but on the guy's side. I mean, unless we're seriously assuming Kageyama got that fever just from living outside in the cold. I should probably mention that I kinda loved this episode on a rewatch, by the way? Ordinarily I'd lead with the contrarian bit, but this is also a time where I have the personal history angle to cover, too. I went with that first because it's important to understand where my expectations were at, which might explain why I'm much more pleasantly surprised than Die was. The narrative issues are still there, but, especially with Kagami vindicating himself, I got super into it and had a lot of fun. Sure, a lot of it is regressive, but it's also regressing to things I greatly enjoyed from the first part of the series? I mean, I have been *so* utterly starved for Hiyori's mumbling naysaying and cool Clock Up fights lately, I found it hard to ask for anything more. And with Ishida directing this and the final two episodes, it's all the better! I thought there was a noticeable sense of atmosphere, of course, with (what felt like) way less background music than normal, which added a sense of weight and apprehension that lent the plot stakes the writing wasn't pulling off as well. Plenty of smaller, neat touches, too, like an untransformed Tendou dodging ZECTroopers, making the Clock Up whooshing sounds as he does so. I guess maybe that foreshadows his ability to blatantly cheat in his fight with Dark Kabuto by using Hyper Clock Up before even pulling out the Hyper Zecter? Cheating or not, I thought that was a great scene. It's kind of funny to me how Dark Kabuto is such a subversion of the usual evil counterpart trope, being less equal, yet opposite, and more a broken reflection – a sham that could never compete with the real deal. Make no mistake, though, this isn't a great episode. As a launching pad for a grand conclusion, it's rather inauspicious, and that's an unavoidable hurdle. But even so, it's not particularly dire or anything outside of that. Just... oddly mellow for one of the series' final outings.
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01-28-2021, 07:17 PM | #824 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
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Make no mistake, though, this isn't a great episode. As a launching pad for a grand conclusion, it's rather inauspicious, and that's an unavoidable hurdle. But even so, it's not particularly dire or anything outside of that. Just... oddly mellow for one of the series' final outings.
As you said, an oddly mellow tone for the last ever Kabuto story!
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01-28-2021, 07:26 PM | #825 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
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KAMEN RIDER KABUTO - EPISODE 48
Oh, man, is this thing getting worse? Feels like it's getting worse! The biggest bummer for me is how little of what's going on in these episodes feels thematically tied into what the rest of the season has been about. Discussions of xenophobia, of an inability for previous generations to safeguard a future for their children, of allowing organizations to dictate terms to a populace instead of the other way around... I mean, fun ideas, but none of that was really in the last 47 episodes of Kabuto. This show decided to go all-in on a militarized organization of nebulous authority that has mostly been a joke the last half of the series, and it's probably a critical error. There's plenty of other problems, on a micro/individual level, but the big one is just how disconnected this finale is feeling from the show that preceded it. I made a joke, back on 45, that the producers got handed five extra episodes after 44 and had to come up with more ideas on the spot. That... that might really be what happened, because nearly everything after 44 has been downhill, character-wise. The cast had reached a cathartic end, and then... just kept going? Despite their emotional issues being resolved? So they just forget most of them so another story could be told? Like, the big fight at the center of this episode is between Gatack and Kabuto, and it just feels so forced, so false, so phony. 44 has this pivotal moment of connection between the two Riders, and here we are in 48 with Tendou throwing away all of Kagami's trust for no compelling reason (now he decides to mention that the necklaces are turning people into Natives?!), leaving Kagami with a burning need to kill Tendou for... reasons? I think Kagami suddenly feels like Worms should be allowed to live? After one speech from Negishi? It's not like the show hasn't had stories where Kagami wanted to protect the odd Worm, but here he's sentencing Tendou to death (pretty much the series theme at this point) for killing Worms, despite Kagami killing dozens of Worms over the length of the show? Hundreds? It's just such a weird scene, and it still feels unbelievably regressive. This doesn't feel like the Kagami and Tendou who banded together to save Hiyori, or the Kagami and Tendou that kept one another from going too far in the pursuit of justice. This feels like the Tendou who looks down his nose at this other guy's Very Big Feelings, and the Kagami who doesn't trust Tendou's loner tendencies and lack of transparency. It's this series deciding to have a huge Gatack/Kabuto fight in the penultimate episode, and then scrambling to find a way to justify it. I guess it helps if Kagami gets scammed and Tendou takes forever to explain what's really going on! So, yeah, a huge part of this episode doesn't work for me. I didn't really hate the Kagami solo stuff, since the core of this show is Kagami's Very Big Feelings. I like him trying to help people in a larger way, in a societal way. It's when the show so quickly pushes him into a fight to the death with Tendou, and it literally could've been avoided if Tendou had thought to explain himself (or even articulate his concerns, if he wasn't certain) one single scene earlier, that's when I feel like the show isn't trying hard enough. Which, yeah, sloppy plotting up and down the show. It's a lot of quick ends and turns that a better show would've checked in on regularly, or possibly steadily addressed over the course of the show. Hey, remember those pills Goro stopped taking 30 episodes ago? Well, he's throwing them away here and becoming a Super Native! (Or are the pills making him a Super Native? I'm unclear! Or uninterested! Or both!) Or, hey, that Negishi guy who has been in two scenes before this episode? He's the series mastermind and a genocidal lunatic! Or, y'know that berserk switch we saw Kabuto deal with literally one time in one episode and then basically no one ever brought up again? It's going to be a huge part of the finale, I guess! Or, what about ZECT being a militarized organization of nebulous authority, who worked in the shadows and could barely pay their employees or keep the lights on? Now they basically run Japan! Oh, and KickHopper murders PunchHopper! And Kagami's dad dies! It's insane, what this show is trying to do over its final three episodes. I feel like they're trying to do Kabuto Season 2 over 47 to 49. Everything feels rushed and unconvincing, the show is squandering great characters and long-term arcs, and it doesn't even find room for a Tendou/Hiyori scene in the entire episode. (Cute Juka/Hiyori one, though.) If you told me this episode was written a year prior, before the characters had evolved and the show came into itself, it would explain everything. I'm not sure I've ever had a Rider/Rider fight that I believed in less than this one, or an episode with this many name character deaths that I found so ludicrously unmotivated. Shockingly poor episode, and I'm not feeling great about tomorrow's finale! A QUESTION Multiple choice time! Genuinely can't believe that Tendou, the guy who executed Tsurugi a week ago, is letting the guy who assaulted Hiyori just, like, go live his life. Is Tendou letting Another Tendou go because: a) Tendou firmly/suddenly believes in forgiveness against psychotic Worms as long as they promise not to do it again, despite Another Tendou immediately shouting that he can't forgive Hiyori and fleeing into the night b) Tendou is pathologically incapable of looking at his own face and not immediately forgiving it c) Nothing matters anymore, no one on this show is written like they existed before this episode, continuity is a dirty word, welcome to the darkness
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01-28-2021, 09:09 PM | #826 |
The Immortal King Tasty
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Every diner you've ever been to.
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Ooh, look, Tendou said the thing! Glad I told everyone about the tagline back at the start of the thread. Yes, the show sure is coming full circle now! ...Maybe a little too full circle? Yeah, I mean, I wish I could argue about the (not ~particularly~ high) quality of this final arc so far, I really do. It's the episode where Kagami and Tendou fight to the death over differing perspectives! This is the most thematically appropriate possible time for my opinions to run contrary to Die's! There are some minor points I could address, if I'm feeling extremely desperate. Pointing out that I'm pretty sure Kagami's dad isn't among the casualties list of this episode. Or maybe, like... noting how Dark Kabuto is actually talking about not being able to forgive the Natives, and the Hiyori thing is a mistranslation? Wait, talking about mistranslations? Great, now I'm back where I was 40+ episodes ago! I did enjoy a lot of this episode, despite how sloppy it is. There are some gems buried in the dirt here, but the lack of cohesion prevents it from reaching any great heights. Take the Kabuto/Gatack fight, for example. It needs to be emphasized what a huge deal that is, conceptually. Gatack is a very, very special secondary Rider. To this day, he holds the record for latest introduction, nearly halfway through the show, and, rather shockingly, him and Tendou haven't butted heads in any significant capacity since. In an early Heisei show! Sure, that statement comes with the caveat that they basically did that plot when Kagami was TheBee for a week back in the early show (again, full circle), but it's notable all the same. Their relationship had built by that point into something unbreakable, and no matter the tension between them, it never escalated into serious combat. Clearly they were saving that for a big occasion, but I think they hit a wall figuring out how to break down that trust this late in the game. To the point they probably should've realized we didn't need to see them fight at all. Tendou has to be pointlessly silent for it to happen, and while I appreciate Kagami's shock horror at Kabuto killing Natives, and think his general gullibility is reasonably in-character, it's fundamentally not the most compelling axis for the drama to turn around. There's so much stuff I legitimately love about the duel, itself, too! Kabuto outright refusing to use the Hyper Zecter as a show of respect, especially, was by far the most true the episode was to the relationship between these characters. I just wish it hadn't felt so forced getting here. I'm going to let Hiyori spending the entire episode literally in the kitchen off the hook, under the assumption that her lack of proper involvement is still the result of unavoidable real world problems. I don't know if that IS the case, but I'll give the show every chance I can. Ishida's gloomy direction continues to impress, once again letting many of the scenes just soak in the ambient sounds of the environments, letting the performances carry the emotion, and of course, by this point, all the actors are giving it everything they've got. If I weren't so confused by the abrupt resolution to the Hoppers' plotline, I might even find Yaguruma and Kageyama's final scene together touching! Immediately getting negative again, I know, but I remember being genuinely confused what even happened the first time I saw it, so I want to bring it up. Kageyama being all upset about turning into a Native, and Yaguruma's subsequent mercy(?) killing happens so fast it barely even registers. I've barely even had time to get used to them deciding to seek the light, and suddenly one of them is dead. It's a bizarre end point for two bizarre characters, is maybe the most positive way I can put it. I... I swear I started writing this thinking I'd have more nice things to say? I doubt I need to explain that this isn't generally the way I like to talk about Kamen Rider. It probably sounds like I had some frustrating experience with this one the same way I'm sure Die did, but please refer back to the part where I said I enjoyed much of it. The problem is, now that I'm sitting down and trying to quantify why, all that's popping into my head are minute details and small moments. Quite a lot of them, I'll have you know! ...But if I try to string all that together, it's only going to come out disjointed, rapidly switching from point to point with little rhyme or reason. Essentially, my attempt to praise the episode would only underscore the problem at its core. So instead, I'll just agree with Die wholeheartedly that there's not a lot to pull from this one. One good thing is how it definitely feels like considerably more of a darkest hour situation than the first part of the trilogy, and, hey, I guess it's kind of a darkest hour for the thread, too? Is that a defense, or am I only making it sound worse again?
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01-28-2021, 09:24 PM | #827 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
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Clearly they were saving that for a big occasion, but I think they hit a wall figuring out how to break down that trust this late in the game. To the point they probably should've realized we didn't need to see them fight at all. Tendou has to be pointlessly silent for it to happen, and while I appreciate Kagami's shock horror at Kabuto killing Natives, and think his general gullibility is reasonably in-character, it's fundamentally not the most compelling axis for the drama to turn around. There's so much stuff I legitimately love about the duel, itself, too! Kabuto outright refusing to use the Hyper Zecter as a show of respect, especially, was by far the most true the episode was to the relationship between these characters. I just wish it hadn't felt so forced getting here.
-Tendou and Kagami need to be kept apart as long as possible, not counting open conflicts, because if there's even a single free moment, they'll talk about the plot and then they team-up to stop the Natives/ZECT. That means that for basically two full episodes, we don't get any of the relationship that is arguably this show's biggest strength. That tool in the toolbox? Gone. -Tendou has to keep Kagami excluded from what's going on, non-stop. Tendou takes this entire plot on his shoulders for almost no reason. It's not some personal vow he made, or a thing only he can do. He was in charge of an entire ZECT division! He was pretty good at delegating! To people who owe not that much allegiance to ZECT as an organization! -Kagami has to get sick of Tendou's bullshit now, despite realizing months ago that Tendou isn't ever the guy to act capriciously. After everything they've been through, Kagami has to choose this weird moment to want to kill Tendou. -Tendou has to care so little for Kagami that he won't extricate himself from a fight that's mostly down to a misunderstanding and poor teamwork. It's a ton of massively dumb/out-of-character things, all of which are actively unpleasant to watch as a fan. (It's pretty much two full episodes of the three main characters barely interacting!) And it all ends up being in service of a fight that, while technically impressive (I liked the ZECTroopers actually contributing), is just emotionally incoherent. This episode! Hooooo boy!
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01-29-2021, 01:47 AM | #828 |
I have a problematic type
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So yeah, we're back into "I don't remember any of this" territory with Kabuto's penultimate episode. All I really recalled was the plot to turn humans into Natives and that Kagayama died (although I forgot that Yaguruma killed him). Forgot the big Kabuto v. Gatack throwdown. Forgot that Kagami Sr. died. Forgot that Mishima was a weird Native and not just a regular Native in disguise the whole time. Forgot that Renge's one scene managed to make Juka and Hiyori's look like a spotlight episode in comparison. Etc.
I'm not a big fan of Kabuto's final arc either. It does make more sense than I remembered, but it also feels like a lot of things randomly happening for reasons that don't entirely make sense. That said, I don't really want to talk about this episode when I can talk about something much better: Kamen Rider Black! I think it's fairly well established that Hibiki is my favorite Rider series. Black is a very close second. I watched it after I got through the full Heisei era, though, which means I was able to realize that the Natives' plan to use jewelry to replace humanity isn't new: it's stolen from one of Gorgom's failed efforts. Episode 9 of Kamen Rider Black deals with a plan by the Gorgom priestess Bishum to kill a massive swathe of humanity through the toxic poison of the Wasp Mutant. Her delivery method? Booby-trapped necklaces. Of course, Kotaro overheard that a few people had been hospitalized with strange symptoms and immediately suspected Gorgom (which isn't that impressive, really, Kotaro suspected Gorgom was behind everything: "My order of regular fries from Arby's included a random curly fry? Gorgom!"). He didn't actively destroy the necklaces, but he did encourage an ill-fated attempt to get people to stop wearing them. It's a very similar story, just swap fatal poison for Native transformation and 80s kids in track suits for Zectroopers. The parallels really struck me when I first watched the episode and I find it hard to believe that the similarities are a coincidence, especially with how well-known and popular Black is in Japan. |
01-29-2021, 02:28 AM | #829 |
take me to space
Join Date: Sep 2017
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The answer to your question is the 'its bad writing' gif. At this rate, the next one to be doing any mercy killing will be you towards the show! (As for my own thoughts, they basically echo most of the ones you listed, which is to say that I felt zero emotion towards any of it.)
Also the similarities to that episode of Black is pretty quirky! I think if Kamen Rider Black were in this show, he would have gone after ZECT believing it to be a Gorgom operation. |
01-29-2021, 03:47 AM | #830 |
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In all honestly, the only thing that registered to me was Yaguruma’s mercy killing of Kageyama. Mostly because it’s why I got into this show in the first place (I got into it from Zi-O). And since this is the last appearance of Yaguruma in the show, he is the only living character who doesn’t get a happy ending. So what better way to send him off than somebody’s fan manga wherein his “have you laughed at me?” gag gets mixed with a character from another show’s “Was that the right time to laugh?” gag.
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