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08-31-2019, 05:34 PM | #121 |
Showa Girl
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Past the two-thirds point in the show Team Ghost is, like, a hive-mind. There's no real dissent, no real alternate strategies, no schemes or intrigue or anything that'd add drama to the group's setup. When characters do act on their own, it's to protect everyone else.
I'm also gonna buck a trend here slightly and say that I actually do not mind the Ganmaizer that much. Their robotic dispositions and complete lack of personality make for the perfect enemy to Takeru: faceless simple machines that are impossible to reach out to, yet are overwhelmingly powerful in the face of his spiritualism. It's just that the way they were handled and focused on so much means you very very quickly get tired of them and wish things would move on a little. A good example is how the fact there's so many of them and that they keep reviving even after utter defeat is a GREAT setup for an idea of hopelessness and despair, but it just leaves you really tired and makes the focus "No progress is being made. Yawn." rather than the ideal "Oh dear god, nothing he's doing is making any progress!! How is he possibly going to win this hopeless situation?!" |
09-01-2019, 12:44 AM | #122 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
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I'm also gonna buck a trend here slightly and say that I actually do not mind the Ganmaizer that much. Their robotic dispositions and complete lack of personality make for the perfect enemy to Takeru: faceless simple machines that are impossible to reach out to, yet are overwhelmingly powerful in the face of his spiritualism.
It's just that the way they were handled and focused on so much means you very very quickly get tired of them and wish things would move on a little. A good example is how the fact there's so many of them and that they keep reviving even after utter defeat is a GREAT setup for an idea of hopelessness and despair, but it just leaves you really tired and makes the focus "No progress is being made. Yawn." rather than the ideal "Oh dear god, nothing he's doing is making any progress!! How is he possibly going to win this hopeless situation?!" It's just, first, I think Adel embodies those qualities better, and he gets more a resonant conclusion to that thematic struggle. Takeru's answer to "lacks empathy" for Adel was "more, deeper empathy". His solution to "lacks empathy" for the Ganmeisers was "Omega Drive to face". It, y'know, it lacks depth. Second, you're absolutely right that the unstoppable, implacable, eternal Ganmeisers just came off as "Jesus, this AGAIN?!" That does not seem the optimal attitude an audience should take to an endstage adversary! Finally, they just had the most weird, muddled story. Like, they're part of the Great Eye? But then they're robots? That Eadith built for some reason? But now they have emotions? Or maybe not? I never felt like I got a clear view of what they were, how they worked, and what they eventually wanted. With Adel, it felt more realized.
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09-01-2019, 07:47 AM | #123 |
Warrior of Delusions!
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If only we'd got that second Ghost V-Cinema to explain the wondrous origins of the Ganmeizers and the Dark Necroms, instead of the Episode of Stinger. What a time it would have been to be alive.
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09-01-2019, 09:24 AM | #124 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
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Sure, a second Ghost V-Cinema could have been focused on Alain. Or maybe we avoided "RE:SEND: Kamen Rider Mailman", an hour-long exploration of the life of Yasushi Onodera. It's hard to say which outcome is the best.
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03-08-2020, 06:13 AM | #125 |
Veteran Member
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Posts: 1,290
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-What does the hero do when they're not Kamen Ridering? This is the same problem I had with Wizard, another show I mostly didn't enjoy. (Rinko and Beast can stay, everyone else can go.) Takeru and Haruto are superheroes, but... what else? Takeru mostly sits around unless acted on by the plot. Which means, like Wizard, this is a show that has a tough time generating plots in interesting ways. It's mostly them sitting around until the villains act, then going to stop them, repeat for 10 episodes. Ex-Aid could generate a plot/sympathy through doctoring, Drive through crime-stopping, W through slightly-sloppier-crime-stopping, OOO through Ankh being a tremendous asshole, etc. Wizard and Ghost just sit around until evil happens, but at least Wizard had his goddamn donut. Ghost doesn't even have a donut! Beyond the lack of a b-plot to generate story, it also makes the hero feel one-dimensional. What does he want, besides Not Dying and Also Maybe Other People Shouldn't Die? Does he want to see the world, make friends, something? Takeru doesn't seem like he wants to do anything other than weakly insist that he wants to be a hero. That's not going to put food on the temple's table, kid! At least your dad chopped wood for a fire! You just sit in the basement all day!
So, it's actually right that Kamen Rider cannot be all about Riders and monsters (as I think)! Despite obviously the "abnormal" things like Riders, monsters, or bizzare world being the interesting part of KRs. To me Tokusatsu isn’t about the suits or fighting, it’s about the people, the characters, the stories, instead of people fighting in silly colorful costumes, Which is the actual reason I follow KR, because for a toku mostly it has a proper plot. Quote:
With no space to tell a story, you get dialogue that's perfunctory and baffling, powers that barely get utilized, and villains that are bland.
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-Onari and Akari are incredibly annoying. No screencaps, just *gestures at the first 23 episodes of Kamen Rider Ghost*.
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03-08-2020, 11:42 AM | #126 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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I can certainly try! My brain is not going to be super-great at thinking Ghost thoughts, but, much like Takeru, I'm going to attempt to make this connection even if it kills me!
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So, it's actually right that Kamen Rider cannot be all about Riders and monsters (as I think)! Despite obviously the "abnormal" things like Riders, monsters, or bizzare world being the interesting part of KRs. To me Tokusatsu isn’t about the suits or fighting, it’s about the people, the characters, the stories, instead of people fighting in silly colorful costumes, Which is the actual reason I follow KR, because for a toku mostly it has a proper plot.
To me, the flaw of the beginning of Ghost (and basically all of Wizard) is that the emphasis was so heavy on the Rider elements that it was tough see what they were trying to say about their hero. Without a day job or a hobby or some non-monster-exploding aspect to his character, Takeru didn't feel as fleshed out as, say, Shinnosuke or Emu. The best shows, or at least the ones that've worked best for me, explore more facets of their hero than just When Does He Henshin So Something Can Happen. Plus, and Ghost was super guilty of this in the beginning, you need those other facets of a character to generate stories. If the only way a story starts is to have a monster attack, that's going to get old in a hurry. You need stories to generate internally as well as externally. Fourze was great at that, where you could have weird Zodiart stuff, but also just have one or two KRC members have a personal problem they need to solve. If a hero is solely reactive, never proactive, it's tough to keep coming up with fun stories to tell. Quote:
Powers that barely get utilized isn't Ghost's exclusive problem. Actually, most of the KR series to me tbh (esp. Neo-Heisei with many powers and abilities). Mostly those powers would never be used fully (only like 20% perhaps). Like Fourze Cosmic States or Drive Type Tridoron for example.
Specifically, with the beginning of Ghost, there was such a rush to get new EyeCons that, while a given power was crucial to defeating an episode's monster, it was just One More Collectible after that. It... it didn't feel additive to the story, if that makes sense. I didn't feel like it was an achievement that empowered the hero, so much as it felt like ticking something off a checklist. That's not how I want the character's power levels to work! Weirdly, I think Ghost eventually did the best job of reincorporating the early EyeCons into something relevant to its protagonist. (The show did a lot of work in its later episodes to redeem some of the terrible, terrible choices of the first dozen episodes.) There's, if memory serves, a whole story devoted to Takeru telling the original EyeCons that they have value. That's a sweet idea, and it's a nice acknowledgement from the show that the incessant power creep of Kamen Rider can minimize accomplishments if left unchecked. Quote:
Can you elaborate on those 2? Even if Ghost is my least favorite season, I'd think Akari is one of the better part of the show. I'd admit she's annoying af in the first part of the series tho, with how insane her denial to the surrounding is. It's like a denial atheist but with blatant evidence around you. Onari is still better than most of the other side characters IMO even if he doesn't contribute really much (one notable contribution of him is redeeming Javel).
Thanks for letting me think and talk about this show! I hope I made any sense! My memories on this show are not, uh, crystal clear. Still, I do remember enjoying this show eventually, and I hope my criticisms of Ghost and its cast (Takeru, Onari, Akari, Ankh, Miu, and Accel) don't feel unwarranted. Thanks again!
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03-09-2020, 06:26 AM | #127 |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 1,290
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Yeah, the more Kamen Rider I watch, the more I feel drawn to the characters over the spectacle. (Which is not to say I dislike the spectacle. I love it when monsters explode! It's my favorite thing about most monsters.) At a point, the suits and monsters and explosions... it's not repetitive, exactly, but it's, like, the language of Kamen Rider, of tokusatsu. How you use that language to say something, to tell a story about people, that's what makes it unique and worth exploring.
To me, the flaw of the beginning of Ghost (and basically all of Wizard) is that the emphasis was so heavy on the Rider elements that it was tough see what they were trying to say about their hero. Without a day job or a hobby or some non-monster-exploding aspect to his character, Takeru didn't feel as fleshed out as, say, Shinnosuke or Emu. The best shows, or at least the ones that've worked best for me, explore more facets of their hero than just When Does He Henshin So Something Can Happen. Plus, and Ghost was super guilty of this in the beginning, you need those other facets of a character to generate stories. If the only way a story starts is to have a monster attack, that's going to get old in a hurry. You need stories to generate internally as well as externally. Fourze was great at that, where you could have weird Zodiart stuff, but also just have one or two KRC members have a personal problem they need to solve. If a hero is solely reactive, never proactive, it's tough to keep coming up with fun stories to tell. Quote:
It's legit a flaw in Kamen Rider, sure. I think ever show I've watched has a form or two where it's like, the hero worked so hard to get that form and they haven't used it in a dozen episodes. (Agito, like, I don't know if that dude used his Sword Form for anything in the second half of the show. Did he get some new Henshin-Only Retrograde Amnesia?)
Specifically, with the beginning of Ghost, there was such a rush to get new EyeCons that, while a given power was crucial to defeating an episode's monster, it was just One More Collectible after that. It... it didn't feel additive to the story, if that makes sense. I didn't feel like it was an achievement that empowered the hero, so much as it felt like ticking something off a checklist. That's not how I want the character's power levels to work! Weirdly, I think Ghost eventually did the best job of reincorporating the early EyeCons into something relevant to its protagonist. (The show did a lot of work in its later episodes to redeem some of the terrible, terrible choices of the first dozen episodes.) There's, if memory serves, a whole story devoted to Takeru telling the original EyeCons that they have value. That's a sweet idea, and it's a nice acknowledgement from the show that the incessant power creep of Kamen Rider can minimize accomplishments if left unchecked. Quote:
Me not liking them, it's all about how the first third-or-so of the show used them, which is to say to drive me insane with rage. Onari was only a fumbling, mugging idiot. Akari was only a stubborn skeptic. The show started to move them out of those roles as the series progressed, evolving them with new shading and some great character pairings. (The Javert stuff is, like, the thesis statement for Why Onari Doesn't Suck.) I feel like any defense of them as characters, any warm feelings folks have about them, that's all from the back-half of the show. At the start, though, Akari and Onari really don't work.
Thanks for letting me think and talk about this show! I hope I made any sense! My memories on this show are not, uh, crystal clear. Still, I do remember enjoying this show eventually, and I hope my criticisms of Ghost and its cast (Takeru, Onari, Akari, Ankh, Miu, and Accel) don't feel unwarranted. Thanks again! |
03-09-2020, 12:03 PM | #128 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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I remember that someone gets mad over someone/something not related to Riders/monsters being one of the focus on the story in a KR series and had a passionate hatred for it, so I think normally people like it when a toku is even formulaic as long as it's all about Riders/monsters. But nah I can never be like that, instead formulaic toku doesn't interest me. I think it's unfair to hate the non-toku stuff/characters just because they are more mundane.
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This is also part of the reason why I check the story/character in KR primarily, because many of the fights or form performance (fighting style, finisher, etc.) disappoints me. The many devices collected are actually to sell more things to kids tbh. But I also want for those powers to be used beautifully and maximized.
For the collectibles, I got mad at Ghost for doing them badly, not for doing them at all. Like, I love that shit. I unironically love Gashats and Eyecons and Shift Cars and all of that. It's totally for kids, but, y'know, so is Kamen Rider? What keeps me coming back to Kamen Rider, what keeps me watching series and falling in love all over again, it's how it's a franchise designed to sell toys to children AND a vehicle for exploring the need for empathy, the horrors of war, the value of cooperation, and a limitless number of other themes. I wouldn't want a Kamen Rider show to sacrifice either one of those ingredients to add more of the other. Quote:
But, like, I think it's fair to point out when a show is making it unnecessarily difficult on its viewers. I totally get why folks bailed on Ghost, and I can't say they made the wrong decision for their own happiness. If you're hating watching a show, it's okay to quit! You don't owe that show more than the time you've already given it. If the arc of a character starts Horrible and ends Great, it's hard to say that it's always worth the effort. I don't know. It's easy, I think, if you've seen the arc of a character to feel like it was time well-spent. It's a lot less easy to feel like you're on a good trajectory when you're having a bad time at the start.
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03-09-2020, 03:41 PM | #129 |
The Immortal King Tasty
Join Date: Jan 2012
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They really are pretty great though. Just like Ghost's first stretch, in my opinion, and we probably already talked about this a bit before, but, man, those first dozen episodes are real special to me. It's like, I agree with basically all your points about what makes a Rider show better (the fights as punctuation thing! That's great!), and even that Ghost wasn't doing some of that early on. But I just find so much to love in there anyway? The way the show drills into Takeru's insecurities, whether it's through the intense fights with Specter, or the scenes with him talking to Akari where the show knows to slow down a bit. The character growth, and the great payoffs like him getting the Beethoven Eyecon. The magic hugs! Those are so great! And with a single, very important exception, you can only get that from the first arc. I also don't know if part if this is the difference between watching the show weekly, and plowing through it in a month or two, but honestly I'd say Ghost did a good job giving the Eyecons significance right away. Multiple forms tended to be used in one fight scene, so none of them fell out of use, and narratively, the show effectively capitalized on their importance to enhance the story on occasion through beats like Specter just straight up jacking one of the hero's forms for several episodes, underlining his early status as the "better" Ghost. Actually, Makoto's development throughout the first arc in general is a huge high point for me. Such a payoff when he finally fights alongside Takeru. I just don't know, man. I love Ghost, and the initial stretch is no exception. It might actually be my favorite overall chunk of it, even.
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03-09-2020, 04:09 PM | #130 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
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Location: Chicago, IL
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They really are pretty great though.
Just like Ghost's first stretch, in my opinion, and we probably already talked about this a bit before, but, man, those first dozen episodes are real special to me. It's like, I agree with basically all your points about what makes a Rider show better (the fights as punctuation thing! That's great!), and even that Ghost wasn't doing some of that early on. But I just find so much to love in there anyway? The way the show drills into Takeru's insecurities, whether it's through the intense fights with Specter, or the scenes with him talking to Akari where the show knows to slow down a bit. The character growth, and the great payoffs like him getting the Beethoven Eyecon. The magic hugs! Those are so great! And with a single, very important exception, you can only get that from the first arc. I also don't know if part if this is the difference between watching the show weekly, and plowing through it in a month or two, but honestly I'd say Ghost did a good job giving the Eyecons significance right away. Multiple forms tended to be used in one fight scene, so none of them fell out of use, and narratively, the show effectively capitalized on their importance to enhance the story on occasion through beats like Specter just straight up jacking one of the hero's forms for several episodes, underlining his early status as the "better" Ghost. Actually, Makoto's development throughout the first arc in general is a huge high point for me. Such a payoff when he finally fights alongside Takeru. I just don't know, man. I love Ghost, and the initial stretch is no exception. It might actually be my favorite overall chunk of it, even. But, you know, it's art! People draw different things out of art, and it's fascinating to me how folks can enjoy stuff I don't and vice versa. I sincerely appreciate your ability to argue for what's worked for you in these shows. It's always contrary, but it's never just contrary, so it's fun to talk about.
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