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05-08-2022, 04:11 PM | #1001 |
Kaiju or Hero?
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Even I Don't Know Anymore.
Posts: 1,397
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I guess the answer is really "no", if we're talking strictly about the actual plot mechanics going on here, which I distinctly remember feeling ~pretty~ messy, but I absolutely like the Time Jackers way more than I think most people do -- completely unironically -- and a lot of that started coming together for me in this final stretch of the series. Heisei Kamen Rider shows love their focus on found families, and Zi-O is maybe less subtle about that than usual. So I actually really ended up loving the contrast between the main heroes and villains. You have this protagonist in Sougo, who becomes best buds with his own executioner, living under the same roof with all his other time friends and his supportive and caring uncle; and then on the other side of all this, you've got Swartz: this colossally s***ty authority figure dragging these two surly kids around in this cold, affectionless dynamic where they basically all hate each other's guts and constantly treat one another like complete garbage, because that's all they've ever known and they don't know how to quit.
Nice to know there are folks out there who can see them in a better light than what they're ultimately presented as. Quote:
I don't know, it's hard to make a big case for them right now, going entirely off of memory, and I suspect it'd be another fun thing to pay more attention to on a rewatch, but while they aren't utterly amazing antagonists or anything, I don't doubt their presence is adding something worthwhile to the series. Really, the thing that bugs me most about these three is just that I can never remember how to spell their names.
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05-08-2022, 06:32 PM | #1002 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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Ha ha, guess who forgot to check his TokuNation notifications!
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It all really feeds into how I feel about Oma Zi-O and my interpretation of him at the end of it all. And while I think he's a wonderful antagonist... he's not the main villain of the series. As dull as the Time Jackers are, they're the true villains while Oma Zi-O is an inevitability of something to come.
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So you actually like this one, I didn't expect it because this can be a reset button that renders previous memories of what have been watched in Zi-O futile, after all every developments, interactions, buildups, comedies, etc., are all erased in an instant and it's not a final resolution to make the situation better or such.
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Well considering how much attention the show has given to Sougo rising up from being an ordinary high schooler to a king, a guy like Schwartz who?s been groomed as a royal his whole life, but was never meant to actually take the throne, no matter how much he wanted to, is a perfect foil. It?s like poetry, it rhymes.
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I loved the castle siege where they fought all the Another Riders, and Woz made a speech, prompting perhaps my favorite moment in all of Zi-O, and then there's that All Heisei Rider Kick, the gem of this whole arc. We also get more Kaito, who's just picking the opposing side just to mess with Tsukasa, which I find funny.
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I don't know, it's hard to make a big case for them right now, going entirely off of memory, and I suspect it'd be another fun thing to pay more attention to on a rewatch, but while they aren't utterly amazing antagonists or anything, I don't doubt their presence is adding something worthwhile to the series. Really, the thing that bugs me most about these three is just that I can never remember how to spell their names.
But, sure, I don't really dislike the Time Jackers, despite feeling like this reveal mortally wounds my excitement for their future appearances. The main problem with Oma Zi-O as an adversary is that he's purposefully stationed out of the characters' reach, so you need to have a more immediate threat, preferably one that can get clowned on every two weeks without robbing the show of any sense of stakes. The Time Jackers ably fill the role of sneering idiots that run away during the climax of most even-numbered episodes. I will always wish their schemes had more complexity than shoving a collectible into the chest of a random person and hoping Zi-O would die because of it (if that's even what this show is saying their plan even was now???), but at least I wasn't ever asked to care about villains that the show also never cared about.
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05-08-2022, 09:10 PM | #1003 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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KAMEN RIDER ZI-O: OVER QUARTZER
I like stories that end up being about something, but not at the expense of actually being stories. This movie was like someone made a screenplay out of one of my posts, and I don’t mean that as a compliment. It’s a movie so hellbent on Talking About Heisei Kamen Rider that it mostly forgets to tell a story using the Kamen Riders of the Heisei era. It’s almost a spiritual sequel to Heisei Generations Forever, in its attempt to make the bonds of Heisei literal in its storytelling. It just never manages to say anything of substance? It’s all over the place, this thing. We start with a Mach guest-appearance, then spend some time in the Sengoku Period for some slapstick comedy, then find out that Everything We’ve Ever Known About Sougo Is Wrong (in a development that looks at the stupidity of Swartz’z plot from Episode 43 and says “hold my beer”), then have a battle over Heisei’s sloppiness (???), then look at the aftereffects of the film’s plot and go Ha Ha WHO CARES. Tonally, it’s disorienting and unpleasant. It’s swinging wildly between insane extremes, never letting the audience get a handle on if the movie should be taken seriously or not. The only way to make it work would be to either ground it in character, or have a theme so transcendent that any plot defects are irrelevant. So, spoiler, we’re 0 for 2 on that front. The villains are brand-new, their organization is brand-new, and the main dude’s claim to being the Real Tokiwa Sougo makes absolutely zero sense, given the 43 episodes of TV we’ve already watched. There’s no real character to speak of, for any of them. They’re riffs on Showa Riders and pre-Kuuga Heisei Riders, which is cute but insubstantial. Barclkxs (I am never looking that up) is all unbelievable claims and Thematically-Relevant Platitudes. He never ever ever feels like anything other than the writer’s weird Anti-Heisei strawman, a character dedicated to destroying a thing we love to replace it with I don’t even know what. At least the dude in HeiGen Forever wanted to be the only one to smile! This guy’s just remaking history because he doesn’t like 21st-century Kamen Rider shows? Our heroes don’t fare a whole lot better. The only members of Team Zi-O who get any real arcs are Woz and Sougo, and neither of them make a ton of sense. Woz’z plot depends heavily on his devotion to a character we’ve never seen before, fulfilling a nonsensical scheme that contradicts vast swaths of a show we’ve spent a year watching, before rejecting those dumb things to once again be the guy we’ve spent a year watching. It’s all ridiculous. Sougo’s story is… god, I’m not even sure what it is? It’s more wrapped up in this movie’s central thesis than anything else, so maybe by untangling that, we can untangle Sougo’s story. There are two plots in this movie where characters find out that the history they believed was really just a story they were being told. In the process of discovering the truth behind the fiction, they discover that the purpose of fiction is to provide a way to hope for a better world; we rewrite flaws as nobility, and selfishness as sacrifice. But inside those fictions are people making choices, and it’s wrong to stifle freedom to create a more ordered narrative. We’re allowed to be messy as people, because those messes help us learn who we really are. As a theme, it’s not bad. The problem is that Barcklsx and the Quartzers won’t stop talking about Heisei’s disorder as though it’s a commonly-held opinion, rather than something pretty random that the movie never tries to provide any context for. He’s just like Your World Doesn’t Make Sense and starts hoovering people up into the sky; his argument is nowhere. If you’re going to make your entire film subservient to a particular thesis, it needs to be more than just some disconnected Sougo speeches. It needs to feel like a point-of-view, and it never does here. This movie… it wants to be some sort of stirring defense of Heisei Kamen Rider, but I’ve got zero clue who or what it’s defending Heisei Kamen Rider from. I like Heisei Kamen Rider! Zi-O as a series is all about how great Heisei Kamen Rider is! I don’t understand what argument this movie thinks it’s winning, and I’m not sure why it moved heaven and earth to win it. No one in this movie does anything for reasons other than serving the metaphor. It tries to do roughly six hours worth of story in about 63 minutes. Its central theme feels incredibly personal to the writer, yet conveyed so unconvincingly that I’m not sure they even believe it themselves. A surprisingly misbegotten film. It’s maybe the first Kamen Rider project I’ve ever seen where I wished it was about less? BONUS! WE ARE TALKING OVER OVER QUARTZER! Because Androzani84 demanded it, here’s another commentary track for a Zi-O movie, brought to you by the same folks who did HeiGen Forever and a big chunk of the TN Plays Memory Of Heroez thread. (As always, special thanks to DreamSword for handling the recording and editing!) If you’ve ever wanted to hear my head explode in real time, here’s your chance!
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05-08-2022, 09:24 PM | #1004 |
I have a problematic type
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,410
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Yeah, this movie was on my "I cannot spend more than 24 minutes with these characters" skip list.
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05-08-2022, 09:26 PM | #1005 |
Some guy. I'm alright.
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Michigan
Posts: 4,393
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Okay so uh, this movie... not good!
However, I had a great time watching it, because hearing everyone transition from confusion to befuddlement to annoyance was just a great time. Anyway! I won't lie, this film was like six different movies all stapled together and then put on speed, and in that sense, it really does just fire off a ton of things that make it easy to rip on, so it certainly gets "points" for that. But, in the interest of fairness(ha), I'mma try to give this movie's' 'message' the benefit of the doubt and the best sort of idea I could piece together in it: I think, what it basically wants the villain's' point to be, is "Showa was consistently the same show every time, whereas Heisei was not, and I don't like change!" Which I mean, okay, sure, he's the villain, so he's not supposed to have the strongest of points, but like, that is just fundamentally wrong on like every level? Showa shows, while not exactly deep, do have alot of differences between them in how they go about things, and Heisei, while there is certainly a bigger emphasis on plot, has alot of repeating trends, Neo-Heisei especially. Really if anything I felt the point was more insulting to Showa than it at all was towards Heisei. I can't really say too much else that everyone else hasn't said(The action was solid, some of the cinematography was okay, the plot makes zero sense, etc), so at the end of the day I'll just say this: This movie is, before anything else, Random. So maybe if you absolutely turn your brain off you'll be okay? Elsewise my advice is, watch it with some buddies and just riff on it. Much better use of the runtime.
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Last edited by DreamSword; 01-05-2023 at 04:37 PM.. |
05-08-2022, 09:31 PM | #1006 |
Precure enthusiast
Join Date: Dec 2021
Location: Amongst the Cosmos
Posts: 304
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Movie Time! Party (P-A-R-T-Y!) Edition!
-This movie is a really wild "What If?" story of an "ending" for Zi-O...If Heigen Forever was like, this sentimental event reflecting on the Heisei era, Over Quartzer is like, the bizzare farewell party that you can only half-remember the next day? -It's hard to explain why I like this movie: it's isn't a solid all-rounder like A to Z, doesn't have the bombastic thrill of Megamax, nor a solid emotional core like TDS, but like....I think I love this movie, because it's a really fun mess? -First off, I kinda adore the slighty more jokey tone this movie has? Considering this is technically our Drive tribute, this kinda flavor of humor fits? -Speaking of Drive, it's Krim! and Gou! However brief and little involved they were in this plot, it was nice to seem them again! -Geiz wearing his little vest while in costume and Tsukuyomi trading her cape for a veil, that's adorable? -The Giant Crowd in this movie is a real minor thing but it kinda helps elevate things here and there, super fun. -I know the premise of this movie is incredibly silly (what if there a another Tokiwa Sougo who was the real baddie all along, and our Sougo was never meant to be king) but I think it leads to a really cool idea to Sougo to ponder on for a beat? -I mean, maaaaaybe it's because I was so tired of Swartz I was open to anyone else stepping up to the plate, but I really enjoyed the jail scene between Sougo and Woz? Just hit all the right buttons for me. -I love how it's all "generic "All Rider" Sequence".....and then Brain shows up. Zangetsu? The GoRiders?! G?????? Manga Kuuga?????? Picking and choosing what to remember is no good concerning history, you gotta take all of it in! Even the bits you hide away in closets, or only find inbetween the cushions of your couch after years and years? -I think the final form Rider Kick is good, not because its hype or anything, but the cut screams being sewn together so bizzarely ("AHehOUAUGHHE-"), it makes me laugh. -Seems like a certain Rider has hopped into view! It's a story we haven't started yet, so I don't wanna jump to dicussing in detail, but I can just say? I do like the first look at Zero-One is a nightmare of Sougo's, and the second is him immediately slamming into a garage door!? What a stunning first impact for our rising hero, wouldn't you say? -A bit of a shame you didn't enjoy this one, but totally understandable! OQ to me is just a little hour-or-so outing into the wild lands of AU territory, and I tend to take things like that a whole deal less seriously? |
05-08-2022, 09:56 PM | #1007 |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 1,290
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I hope not! That's definitely not what I meant! Tsukuyomi is someone who has a more robust emotional toolkit than someone like Geiz, who only has a hammer in the shape of a martyr complex. Tsukuyomi's goal is to prevent a horrific future, but she's able to view Sougo as more than just the thing to kill to prevent a horrific future. Originally, she wanted to stick close to him for warning signs, and maybe help him avoid the ethical compromises that might turn him into a genocidal despot. Here, she sees him as way to defeat the more immediate threat of Hiryuu, and then something to deal with down the line.
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KAMEN RIDER ZI-O EPISODE 43 - ?2019 - TSUKUYOMI CONFIDENTIAL?
It?s a smart move for the episode, but a dumb move for the series. The only thing that really matters in this episode is that Team Zi-O needs to defeat Hiryuu to get the world back to normal, and then take on Swartz. The why/what/how of Swartz?z plans and backstory are, in the moment, completely irrelevant. He?s just one more obstacle, the end. Spending even a single solitary second trying to understand anything Swartz tells Tsukuyomi is time that?s better spent on defeating their immediate foe. Quote:
But it?s all so dumb. It doesn?t make sense for Swartz to share his power with Heure and Ora, since he was always going to need it back and they contribute nothing of value to his schemes. It doesn?t make sense to leave a fully-powered Tsukuyomi alive in an alternate timeline, when he wanted her dead and needed her power. It doesn?t make sense to do all of the Another Rider schemes, since Swartz wanted the throne for himself this whole time. The idea that Swartz wants to be king is fine. The thought that he?d make his move now is reasonable. The reveal that this is all proceeding according to his design is a massive distraction, and a really disappointing plot development.
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?Which only really matters if you care about the plot, and literally no one in this story does. It?s incredibly weird to have a dumb plot development - that?s going to make me less enthusiastic about this series in my memory going forward - occur in an episode that still manages to be entertaining. Such is the magic of Heisei Kamen Rider! It?s an episode that colossally bungles its series arc, but still concludes this three-parter with an enthusiastic focus on meat-and-potatoes tokusatsu storytelling and exhilarating character reunions. As dumb as the Swartz stuff is, the scene of Woz trying to make Geiz think that he worked under Woz as Zi-O?s servant was worth a hundred of those idiot reveals. Stuff like that is what I look for in a Kamen Rider series, not some tightly-woven series plot. That would be nice! But it?s not ruining my day if ain?t here.
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05-08-2022, 10:49 PM | #1008 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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Why is it so hard to involve Krim in a logical way?! How did the Brain special include Chris Peppler with more nuance than this movie?! It's one of my favorite things about Sougo? He wants people to follow their dreams and work to make a better future for themselves, even if he's an obstacle to that future. I think that's weirdly heroic, his refusal to put himself above anyone else?
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05-08-2022, 11:28 PM | #1009 |
take me to space
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 1,406
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Imagine watching this movie in an actual theater though, letting it and all of its everything wash over you in surround sound.
Here's just some scattered thoughts about it I have: -I was going to say it's nice they found an excuse to bust out the Edo set again, before remembering they did do that in the first episode for no reason. So I guess its like coming full circle?! -It actually ticks me off to see Geiz Revive lose to Woz GingaFinally. I do not care about power levels but the former is a symbol born from a culmination of an intense, high-emotions arc, and the latter is some spacesuit plucked from a random alien. -I know I just said I don't care about power levels but its so sad/funny how much Grand Zi-O sucks. Some all-powerful ruler of time and space, huh! -The movie form is neat! I like the idea of Sougo borrowing power from his evil future self to combat this current enemy that threatens them both. Though if the climax was going to be all about celebrating Heisei Riders, you'd think Grand Zi-O, which is literally a walking tribute to all of Heisei Riders, would be the one to use there... -I like the inherent message that it's a good thing all the Rider shows are weird, messy, and different. If anything, I think they aren't weird and different enough lately! Now if this movie's message was that its a good thing that Zi-O specifically is weird and messy, well... that'd be another story >:0 -The credits sequence is a weirdly low-effort clipshow looking thing? That song is great though. Listen to P.A.R.T.Y. ~ユニバース・フェスティバル~ by DA PUMP on spotify or something right now!! -I liked Heisei Generations FOREVER a lot more. My favourite part is how when it flashes through shots of all the belts (the merchandise is the real heroes of this franchise!), Faiz's naturally is just empty because the phone gets taken out entirely for Blaster. |
05-09-2022, 01:23 AM | #1010 |
New Member
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Evanston IL.
Posts: 95
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Those Questers look ridiculous to me. They look like they belong to a boy band or something. I thought they going to breakout and dance or something. LOL
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