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12-27-2023, 02:17 PM | #11 |
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I think Rinne only believed she hated Fuga when she thought he was alive, but hearing the possibility he might be dead made her realize she still loves him and wants him to be alive. For the Dark Sisters here, we see a rare sign of humanity in them, with Atropos humorously pouting like an actual kid about secretly wanting friendship and Lachesis showing concern for Clotho's welfare, which implies that they're not as above mortal problems as they claim to be.
It's also a common mistake to assume evil as meaning incapable of emotions as part of the inhuman narrative (I think you seem to depict Daichi in late Geats as gaining emotions, which implies Daichi lacks human emotions before absorbing the memories, when he already has it, e.g. to be happy and revel on success or get frustrated on failures. I think it's a mistake where, unapologetically evil doesn't equal devoid of emotions), and also how by this some people downplay someone's villainy due to them having emotions, when emotions also include dark and destructive ones (e.g. people claiming a character who murders isn't evil because he's doing so out of shame of his weakness - the emotion they refer to). Lack of humanity isn’t the issue for bad guys, it’s the fact they are human and can still promote and spread horrifying hatred and intolerance, and then turn around to hang out with their friends the next day. Human nature can be scary, I think this should be used to recognize that everyone has an inherent capacity for evil, rather than using them being shown as anything more than monsters and recognizing their humanity to frame them as ?not so bad?. A common mistake too for people to be unable to differentiate redemption and humanizing. The worst monster a man can ever face: another man. Quote:
Honestly, it's kind of cute that Lachesis truly cares about her big sis, like how Sawa and Yuzuru care about each other enough to show a trait of "weakness", which is actually a strength for humans who accept it. Shows that the Dark Sisters are still a family. Might be some potential for redemption, with an arc similar to Alain's as I speculated before.
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I admit I smiled a few times as well. This show seems to have the same effect on me that Ghost and Saber did. Clotho's sense of pride and rivalry with the Primary Rider is like Legeiel's but her fighting style is like Zooous' and vice versa for Lachesis, while Atropos is a kid-shaped Storious. Zi-O and Geats relied so much on their complicated plot logic, but the benefit of Gotchard's formulaic narrative is that foreshadowing plot developments is a lot easier and that encourages us to invest in them early so that the payoff actually means something.
Other than that, for formulaic narrative... does it also apply to any other tokus running on it? As many of the most beloved tokus seem to run on it, and lighthearted shows also seem to be what's more often using it, due to the lower stakes limited to primarily monster/victim of the week. For foreshadowing plot developments being easier, would it sound predictable? Not meant to insult, just that shows can do the opposite for doing unpredictable and surprising approaches (though doesn't mean it's devoid of foreshadowings). I disagree against those who judge shows only by how unpredictable or not though (e.g. those complaining why bad guys don't win as it'd be more unpredictable than good guys winning all the time).
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12-27-2023, 03:12 PM | #12 |
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That is, you didn`t understand what I mean, but decided to argue anyway? Okay, I guess. Regarding Fourze, I only mentioned him because the show itself declared friendship as its main theme, so his mention makes the most sense. Kuuga is still more about optimism, although I don`t argue with your statement. As for good or bad, my opinion is that it?s good when it`s mutual and in moderation. That is, friendship with Kaixa is a very dubious event. As well as any communication with him, unless you are a seller of wet wipes. As for "people like me" I want to believe that my opinion is unique enough to do without classifying me to society about which I have no idea. That is, Gotchard was compared to Fourze earlier, but I would venture to guess that I was the first to brazenly declare that the alchemist surpassed the astronaut in the power of friendship. And I haven’t yet seen anyone agree with this, so I think there are still no “people like me” in this regard.
Last edited by Mesnick; 12-27-2023 at 03:19 PM.. |
12-28-2023, 11:49 AM | #13 |
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It's also a common mistake to assume evil as meaning incapable of emotions as part of the inhuman narrative (I think you seem to depict Daichi in late Geats as gaining emotions, which implies Daichi lacks human emotions before absorbing the memories, when he already has it, e.g. to be happy and revel on success or get frustrated on failures. I think it's a mistake where, unapologetically evil doesn't equal devoid of emotions), and also how by this some people downplay someone's villainy due to them having emotions, when emotions also include dark and destructive ones (e.g. people claiming a character who murders isn't evil because he's doing so out of shame of his weakness - the emotion they refer to).
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This is the reason why I'm against tsundere claims such as Orteca murdering Yosuke in front of Tamaki. Maybe a hot take, but as much as people seem to try to downplay/paint awful behavior/actions from perhaps "cooler" characters like assholes abusing others or villains "shaping" heroes as just a tsundere move and are just the way they show affection (while perhaps mocking the more compassionate characters if they dwell on other people's predicament particularly crying about it), I think showing visible concern over others' predicament is one true display of care, because even sadistic people like Lachesis also acts like that to those she cares about, which also shows she only cares about the sisters, but no kind of "tsundere" stuff for who she victimizes.
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By this to me it reads as if it applies to any lighthearted shows, rather than just those 2 (albeit if not, outside of Revice, wonder why not all lighthearted shows have this effect too). I also feel that Ghost is liked by members like Fish (and handful others too) due to it being a lighthearted show, as other similar kind of shows also got similar reception from them. These kind of audience also tend to encourage power of friendship and sappy speeches which you also said in shows despite it being mocked as cliches. I don't want to seem like those objecting to it, but they also seem to write off shows not revolving on it, like darker ones, as depraved, thinking that important morals can only be done by those 2 terms, nothing else.
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Other than that, for formulaic narrative... does it also apply to any other tokus running on it? As many of the most beloved tokus seem to run on it, and lighthearted shows also seem to be what's more often using it, due to the lower stakes limited to primarily monster/victim of the week. For foreshadowing plot developments being easier, would it sound predictable? Not meant to insult, just that shows can do the opposite for doing unpredictable and surprising approaches (though doesn't mean it's devoid of foreshadowings). I disagree against those who judge shows only by how unpredictable or not though (e.g. those complaining why bad guys don't win as it'd be more unpredictable than good guys winning all the time).
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12-29-2023, 03:32 PM | #14 |
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That is, you didn`t understand what I mean, but decided to argue anyway? Okay, I guess. Regarding Fourze, I only mentioned him because the show itself declared friendship as its main theme, so his mention makes the most sense. Kuuga is still more about optimism, although I don`t argue with your statement. As for good or bad, my opinion is that it?s good when it`s mutual and in moderation. That is, friendship with Kaixa is a very dubious event. As well as any communication with him, unless you are a seller of wet wipes. As for "people like me" I want to believe that my opinion is unique enough to do without classifying me to society about which I have no idea. That is, Gotchard was compared to Fourze earlier, but I would venture to guess that I was the first to brazenly declare that the alchemist surpassed the astronaut in the power of friendship. And I haven’t yet seen anyone agree with this, so I think there are still no “people like me” in this regard.
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I think Daichi is simply a psychopath, who feels the limited range of emotions typical of such a person, including sadism, anger and despair. There's also the headcanon that the sudden empathy is a trait of JyamaDaichi specifically, as Jyamatos are shown to have the ability to learn human emotions and thus he may have already obtained that capacity upon his Jyamafication. Alternatively, you could be right that his curiosity about "boring mundane happiness" merely gives him desire for empathy, rather than actually possessing it. Regarding the Dark Sisters though, I think there's a contradiction between their words and their actions, as Rinne called out, looking down on friendship while secretly desiring it. Emotions are the root of free will, the catalyst for both good and evil. Which is why it's important for humans to try and understand their own emotions and express them in a healthy way.
For the Dark Sisters, it may be more common than just what Rinne points out here. Hermann Hesse quotes "If you hate a person, you hate something in him that is part of yourself. What isn't part of ourselves doesn't disturb us". Like bullies tormenting nerds because they can't comprehend wanting to read like those, likely stemming from them being pushed hard to read and turning to hate reading, but deep down wishes to be like the nerds. Quote:
Makes sense to be against false association between tsundere and redeeming quality, but no reason to be against tsundere claims in general. Like, Evolt is a very open tsundere villain who often talks about his sentimentality and love/hate relationship with humanity. But the emphasis here should still be on villain, not tsundere, which is just the emotional part. Unfortunately, Olteca doesn't understand how to express his "dere" side, so he goes too far with the "tsun" since that gets him the most consistent emotional reaction. However, his ability to understand what ticks off his friends (sometimes as comedy, like insulting their uniforms) shows that he at least has more emotional awareness than Daichi, who only makes himself look suspicious by saying too much. I think your example of Lachesis is also a tsundere, based on her obsession with Spanner and calling him a dog, like how Gai did to Isamu and making Yua a canine-themed pseudo-Rider, likely in tribute to Thouzer.
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Yeah, I'm a big fan of the magic of friendship and sappy speeches in these shows. Ghost and Saber were just some examples, but I love Fourze for the same reason and they're all near the top of my Rider Rankings. However, I believe these tropes can still exist and be respected in darker shows, like Ryuki and Faiz.
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The formula is just there to support and advance the narrative in a sensible way, but the variables that occur within that formula are what makes each show unique. Stepping outside the formula can be a risk and whether or not it pays off depends on the competency of the writer. I mentioned before that Kinoshita tried to make Revice subversive like Ryusoulger, but failed to make it believable.
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The most complete non-wiki encyclopedias for Kamen Rider series (currently only found Ryuki and OOO's). Last edited by DreadBringer; 12-30-2023 at 01:18 AM.. |
12-29-2023, 04:38 PM | #15 |
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It was a question. I'm also not talking about it being good or bad, just about seemingly that the only ones considered power of friendship is anything related to shonen stuff (and tropes related to it the shouting resolve, the flashback strikes, etc. are highlighted, and often used to give instant win in a seemingly hopeless situation at a last minute). When something like helping each other through emotional or slightly hard times, or getting support and teamwork, also qualifies as friendship power but seemingly not considered due to not fitting what's usually associated with the meme. It's what I meant about Kuuga, where the Grongi are defeated not because Kuuga is a better fighter than them, but because they do things alone, competing against each other, while the humans work together in harmony, always valuing what every single person has to contribute (Ichijou, Sakurako, Enokida, etc.), as said in Fish's threads, where it may come from a main writer most known for Super Senta giving strong sense of teamwork there.
Well, I didn't understand the first time that this was a question. Disadvantages of a non-native language. As for Senen, I can't say anything, because I haven't watched a single it`s representative to the end, so I understand it like a sculptor in programming. On the score, Kuuga generally agrees, but still it seems to me that the relationship of the characters there is better described by the word camaraderie than friendship. They treat each other well and have a great fight with Grongi, but their interactions still feel reserved and distant compared to some other shows. I felt something similar from the animated series about the Justice League. I don't know, maybe this is what friendship between adults and experienced people looks like, but this is my impression. Last edited by Mesnick; 12-30-2023 at 06:13 AM.. |
01-01-2024, 01:32 PM | #16 |
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For the Dark Sisters, it may be more common than just what Rinne points out here. Hermann Hesse quotes "If you hate a person, you hate something in him that is part of yourself. What isn't part of ourselves doesn't disturb us". Like bullies tormenting nerds because they can't comprehend wanting to read like those, likely stemming from them being pushed hard to read and turning to hate reading, but deep down wishes to be like the nerds.
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How is tsundere not redeeming quality in this case as, "dere" means sweet which sounds like good traits of someone they conceal? For Lachesis, by this I wouldn't want for her to be viewed as, caring equally about Supana and Clotho just has her unique way of expressing it to Supana, and thus because she views him equally to Clotho, she doesn't actually attack or do anything wrong to Supana she's just being good to him and get misunderstood by him, or even worse than if she targets him out of pure hatred - which'd be what I think of opposing this association. It's just one example, but this is also what's used to justify villains, insisting that them consistently targeting said one person isn't bad particularly if the outcome is them becoming better or overcoming them (being a "mentor") as a result.
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What I'm talking about is that it's not limited to Ghost and Saber, but seemingly just, any lighthearted shows. So, it reads to me that you'd insist the shows lighthearted and... I also got wrong prediction about you, like thinking you'd far prefer Den-O among Kobayashi shows and maybe placing it high up too. I mean I get this because I also predicted that people like Kurona will like Ghost and Saber (and it's right, though not immediately for Ghost), due to her not vibing with darker shows like Ryuki or Faiz. Speaking of those, though you do acknowledge the tropes on those shows, Ryuki'd be bashed by this for making Riders fight each other, and get flak from people like Layton or dreamcastegirl.
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01-04-2024, 10:15 AM | #17 |
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Much like us niche Tokusatsu fans having to deal with obnoxious people who boast about their more popular and therefore "superior" hobbies, it's easy to see which side is more insecure and pathetic. Sadly, even nerds can bully other nerds, in an attempt to be seen as the least lame and closer to the cool clique. Like Yosuke tearing Tamaki's card.
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Well, the Zeronos memory time nonsense probably got Den-O demoted a few ranks. I used to confidently declare it as my favorite Kobayashi Rider show, but after my recent re-evaluation, I've decided that Ryuki is marginally better, although Den-O still wins in characters and comedy. I guess I just don't judge shows based only on tone, which is why there's a mix of light and dark in my top 5 Rider shows.
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True that Ryuki was controversial for pretty much inventing the Rider VS Rider trope, but I appreciated how it used that to show the heroic quality of Kamen Rider in a new light, after the generic villains from Kuuga and Agito that existed to get beaten up. I think Ryuki seriously innovated the franchise for the Heisei Era, in a way that endures in to Reiwa.
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01-04-2024, 11:17 AM | #18 |
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Bad guys existing to get beaten up is also what people who hate Ryuki's approach and like lighthearted (also Showa) more seem to prefer, and can be what's done on lighthearted shows as well, as it'd be easier to keep the moral high ground on the heroes that way, thus it showcases "spirit of Kamen Rider" better for those people.
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01-05-2024, 04:54 PM | #19 |
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Well then... the Sisters that has this contradictory should be labeled similarly as those bullies you mentioned here too, rather than being held in higher regard for it? Otherwise those nerd bullies wanting to be less lame are explanations, not excuse for the bully behavior. By general I don't want for the harmless and weak ones like the victims to be automatically associated with being pure and innocent either, so this info should be known more. They may already house terrible darkness and resentment, likely, just that they can't carry out their acts before it happens.
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What'd be the difference from the "tsundere" ones to the ones who just targets certain people out of pure malice, which may happen due to constant confrontations between certain protagonists and antagonists? And this is also one of the reasons why bullies bully, they want to incur emotional response from their victims. There's ?he bullies you because he likes you? excuse by this to paint their behavior as alright by this - oh I remember this is the reason I'm against tsundere excuses.
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True that dark isn't averse on your upper list, though the lighter tones still seems to be the preference for upper part. (Fourze, Ghost, Wizard, W. Though not as light as before, probably Kiva, Decade, and even Blade won't be those seen as something really dark or such) I'd also think that, lighthearted shows gets free pass on any flaws it has, being high ranked just for how bright and warm they're where everything goes right due to the efforts including all villains being redeemed (I mean not only by you but by people like Fish, Kurona, etc.... Fish does advocate for unconditional love for those shows to only praise all the time), where I'd guess that Zeronos memory time nonsense doesn't matter for Den-O's evaluation by this before.
The 11-13 positions are some of the hardest to rank, as I mostly enjoy Ryuki, Kabuto and Den-O a lot, but sometimes I simply find fault in them for different reasons. That's just my critical and honest mind and I'll dig as deep as I want, until I'm satisfied that I understand it. Quote:
Yes that'd be my point about how darker doesn't mean just being edgy for the sake of it about Ryuki using it, but it won't be what's viewed as a display of magic of friendship by people, with it showing characters being on each other's throats rather than multiple Riders acting like Sentai. Bad guys existing to get beaten up is also what people who hate Ryuki's approach and like lighthearted (also Showa) more seem to prefer, and can be what's done on lighthearted shows as well, as it'd be easier to keep the moral high ground on the heroes that way, thus it showcases "spirit of Kamen Rider" better for those people.
Anyway, if people want to see Ryuki as a Sentai, they can watch the Hyper Battle where the main 4 are all best buds. Except the contract monsters are basically feral animals who want to eat. They could be a metaphor for the "fight or you won't survive" mentality of the Rider War that Kanzaki encourages, in contrast to the Riders who fight for personal reasons. I think this makes them realistic, whereas the Unidentified Lifeforms are sapient and yet they somehow act pretty much exactly the same.
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01-07-2024, 04:27 AM | #20 |
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Not all villains would be redeemed in lighthearted shows though, like Isaac in Saber, or Kai in Den-O. Unconditional love for a TV show clashes with my value of critical thinking. Not even Faiz is above this, as I accept fair criticisms like DreamSword's about Kiba. I'll gladly praise what I enjoy and complain about anything I disagree with. I think that's fair. I get annoyed when some people use the "it's just a kids show" excuse to dismiss arguments. Nothing should be off-limits to criticism.
I get annoyed with that excuse too because it also implies as if, kids stuff are always inferior to mature/adult stuff, that the former means low quality (thus why being deep talking about it, it's just overthinking), and the latter is what can be taken more seriously. And yeah... there are a handful who defend Gotchard with "it's just a kids show" as well. While those who mock lighthearted stuff do so to give what they like better image, those who defend it with that excuse doesn't help the false notion I mentioned there. Quote:
However, the point is that it shouldn't be easy to keep the moral high ground, as Ishinomori wanted to show that the path of heroism is unclean. Ironically, despite Kobayashi deciding to stray from the Showa style, I think she shows even more of that idea, with Riders having their beliefs challenged and being pressured to change, or Ren wanting to change deep down, but feeling obliged to keep fighting and not having a right to doubt. As a story about humans, you can really see the flaws in humanity here, but the desire for friendship and righteousness is shown as well. Difficult, but certainly worth fighting for.
Yes, being actual best buds would be what people generally see as a display of power/magic of friendship. About them always sticking together like a glue at all times, and always has their friends in their mind 24/7, them being the main (even sole) driving motivation of their actions, or that thinking about them is automatic 'get out of jail'-card cop outs no matter how dire situation is (what power of friendship usually comes in people's mind for it being meme'd, giving random asspulls from flashbacks about them). Ryuki is generally the opposite (and perhaps other dark shows other than Build) so obviously it'd not be seen as one.
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