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03-20-2020, 12:28 PM | #121 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
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It's honestly been a bit of a bummer how much you've refused to play ball with these early Heisei monsters. As usual, I can't fault a thing about your logic, but sometimes I think you're being a bit too hard on them anyway? The Grongi and the Unknown are designed to get the viewer picking up subtle clues and making theories, and you go "nah". The Mirror Monsters are deliberately uncomplicated animals so as not to get in the way of the Rider on Rider drama (the lack of which in these episodes probably explaining why it becomes more grating), and you go "nah".
First, most importantly, it's that here's nothing else in this last episode to get excited about, so, yeah, it's extra disappointing when the monster stuff is such a non-entity. (Boy oh boy, do I not love when the Riders do zero investigation and just stumble upon the villain at the end. Why are we even telling stories with monsters in it, then?) If there were another Rider to deal with, like Scissors or Kitaoka, I don't care (as much!) if the monster stuff is bottom tier. When the monster stuff is the only Rider action in an episode, I'd like it to feel like some thought was put into it? Second, for the monsters in general, the thing I want is a clear objective, and a clever way of obtaining it. Like, Wizard, not a favorite show, but I got what each monster was doing, and how they achieved their goal differed from story to story. With these monsters... I'm sorry if folks who are into this show feel like I'm being unfair. I think this show does a bunch of things right, and has had a great ratio of hits to misses so far. But the Mirror Monsters, man, I feel like uninspiring is being mistaken for uncomplicated, and simplistic is being mistaken for streamlined. I just can't find an enthusiasm for monster plots that have nothing clever going on in them. I don't... I don't know if I'm refusing to play ball? I can only respond to what the show is giving me episode by episode. Sure, I mean, I've got biases, ways I'd be more into what Ryuki does with the monsters, but it's not like I came into this with knives sharpened, ready to say Not My Kamen Rider or whatever. I want to like these shows! I want to have fun watching this! No one's forcing me to watch Masked Rider Ryuki! With the monster stuff, I just can't find anything to lock into. If someone's like, "They're supposed to be straightforward, they're supposed to be animals," like, okay, I can't argue that that's how they've been portrayed. I just, I wish they hadn't, because I think that's boring? (Also, Kuuga/Agito/Ryuki are very much in a The Monster Plots Are Not The Best Part For Me space, maybe for some slightly different reasons, but mostly because there are so few twists or turns to them. If I'm remembering my thoughts wrong, and it seems like I'm being hypocritical, I'm sorry! Not my intention! Maybe let me know a little more what you mean if that's how I'm coming off, and I'll try and explain better.)
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03-20-2020, 12:52 PM | #122 |
The Immortal King Tasty
Join Date: Jan 2012
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Sorry if I came on a bit strong there. I certainly was not trying to call you a hypocrite! I just found it amusing that after being bored by the portrayal of the monsters for two shows straight, Ryuki swings in a wildly different direction and still ends up boring you.
It's just... It's funny that you use the Phantoms as the control example for serviceable toku monsters. Because the thing is, that's the Showa era you're talking about right there. For a good few decades, nearly every plot of every toku show was just about a monster who is told at the start to do some thing by their boss, and then 20 minutes of them trying to accomplish that thing using their unique gimmicks before being blown up. I've always had a huge soft spot for Shouichi's Agito-Sense, and the version of it that carried over into Ryuki. It's a bit lazy to just go "the hero heard a noise, time for a fight scene", yeah, but it exemplifies just how much freedom these shows were gaining in how they could be written. If an episode wanted to go almost straight soap-opera with only some token action, it could now. Is that inherently good, or bad? You could argue points in either direction, and I think we're both in broad agreement that it comes down to how well those other elements are holding the story together. I definitely won't try and tell you Ren's weird amnesia adventure is the pinnacle of great Ryuki episodes.
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03-20-2020, 01:31 PM | #123 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
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Quote:
Sorry if I came on a bit strong there. I certainly was not trying to call you a hypocrite! I just found it amusing that after being bored by the portrayal of the monsters for two shows straight, Ryuki swings in a wildly different direction and still ends up boring you.
It's just... It's funny that you use the Phantoms as the control example for serviceable toku monsters. Because the thing is, that's the Showa era you're talking about right there. For a good few decades, nearly every plot of every toku show was just about a monster who is told at the start to do some thing by their boss, and then 20 minutes of them trying to accomplish that thing using their unique gimmicks before being blown up. I've always had a huge soft spot for Shouichi's Agito-Sense, and the version of it that carried over into Ryuki. It's a bit lazy to just go "the hero heard a noise, time for a fight scene", yeah, but it exemplifies just how much freedom these shows were gaining in how they could be written. If an episode wanted to go almost straight soap-opera with only some token action, it could now. Is that inherently good, or bad? You could argue points in either direction, and I think we're both in broad agreement that it comes down to how well those other elements are holding the story together. I definitely won't try and tell you Ren's weird amnesia adventure is the pinnacle of great Ryuki episodes. For me, since I came in through Ex-Aid, I definitely have a subconscious expectation of how monster plots should work as compared to how Ex-Aid did it. Deep within me, the bar of greatness a monster plot has to clear is, "Is this plot as interesting as Lovelica?" Very few things can reach those heights, so I start trying to analyze what choices a show is making that keep it from thrilling me in the same way. I'd love to find a different type of monster plot that feels as vital as those Phase 2 ones do, but all I feel like I'm getting is less than. And, yeah, to reiterate, I'm not furious if a show/episode skimps on monster plots to deliver a different kind of story. Some of my favorite stuff from Kuuga was about Godai's relationship with his teacher, or the way he'd try and help a sad, unmoored boy. I couldn't have cared less if the monsters sucked, as long as the story was good. Here, this one, there's no other adversary or objective to be worth a phoned-in monster plot. You can half-ass the dessert if you killed yourself making the main course, but if you half-ass everything, I'm sending it back to the kitchen. Anyway, I'm going to go watch another episode of Ryuki, because I don't like being this guy. I don't like being a guy who complains about Kamen Rider. I want to be excited again!
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03-20-2020, 01:37 PM | #124 |
Showa Girl
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If it helps, despite what I said very early on; this thread is making me realise I have fondness for a lot more things in Ryuki than I'd thought. It's still not quite for me overall, but from Scissors to the pacing to the fights there's a lot packed in here I enjoy!
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03-20-2020, 02:43 PM | #125 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
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MASKED RIDER RYUKI EPISODE 12
Not bad! I think this one I half enjoyed, and half was glad this story could be over. For the half I enjoyed, man, a lot of it was Shinji. I think he's the MVP of this one. He does what little he can to ground Ren's story, create some drama in it. Plus, like, he gets the only jokes in this one again. That whole thing of him saving Ren by trying to defuse the fight Ren starts, the part about him trying to name drop his EiC and the thugs are like Who and then Shinji's just Oh Cool I'm Going To Get My Ass Kicked Now, that stuff was an episode highlight. His need to protect Ren, to help him through a tough time by throwing himself in front of punches, that's the Masked Rider Ryuki I love. The resolution of the whole Secret Science Club thing, I liked how it affected the characters more than I liked it for what was happening in the plot. It's nice to have one beat hit two characters, to intertwine Ren's grief and rage with Yui's guilt and shame. (My biggest gripe over these two episodes is that the show isolates the two characters who have the most skin in the game, plot-wise. A few moments of Yui and Ren processing the events of Secret Science Club together, even if it's just Ren's declaration of heroic vengeance and Yui silently hiding her guilt, I think that would've done the conclusion a world of good. Or, better yet, having their search for answers take place at the same time, with Ren's anger increasing at the same time as Yui's alarm. I don't know, I don't want to backseat showrun, it just feels like a missed opportunity.) This episode, it does a lot to explain their stakes, to make it feel more personal for both of them. Yui, her wanting answers about her brother, the need to know the truth no matter what, it's a strong motivation. But now that we know her fate was wrapped up in Shiro's choices, it makes that truth feel weightier, more dangerous. And Ren, seeing that he's forced to work with the monster who destroyed his happiness, that's not only very Kamen Rider, but it explains his motivation in a way that humanizes his struggle. Every time he Henshins, he has to draw on the power of the monster who hurt Eri, he has to harness that power for good. For both Yui and Ren, that's bleak, and dramatically rich. It's a solid reframing of the supporting cast of this show. Still, I don't know if that was all worth these two episodes. The Ejima stuff, I'm just not that invested in a guy I never heard of before, wandering around pointing a Yu-Gi-Oh card at reflective surfaces? It's fine, in that the monster plot can be about them trying to corner and kill this one dude. That's something that feels more exciting and comprehensible than the previous episode. The Reiko plot is just about her becoming open to the possibility of new explanations to the mysterious disappearances she's been investigating, which, okay. (That conversation she has with the train conductor, where he's just People Disappearing Is Unusual and Reiko's just Huh That's True, it was killing me. Some eagle-eyed analysis from Masked Rider Ryuki! Thank you for spelling it out for those of us watching at home!) It'll likely move that plot more into the Paranormal Investigator genre, so Reiko might get more of a shot of interacting in the main story. Into that idea, for sure. This episode, I think it was decent. It had a lot to overcome with me from the last episode, and I think it largely steered out of the skid. Some fun stuff to enjoy, and we got some much needed context and backstory for Ren and Yui. Not my favorite Ryuki story, though, and I'm glad to move on from it.
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03-20-2020, 03:50 PM | #126 |
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Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 2,546
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In all honesty, Ren left such a bad first impression on me that these episodes did not make me sympathise with him. If anything, it made me hate this show more for not introducing these elements sooner. I could understand delaying it if REN was a villain, but he’s touted as one of the main protagonists. It strikes me less as a humanisation for an underdeveloped character and more of a “too little, too late” example.
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03-20-2020, 05:14 PM | #127 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,157
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Quote:
In all honesty, Ren left such a bad first impression on me that these episodes did not make me sympathise with him. If anything, it made me hate this show more for not introducing these elements sooner. I could understand delaying it if REN was a villain, but he’s touted as one of the main protagonists. It strikes me less as a humanisation for an underdeveloped character and more of a “too little, too late” example.
I think it maybe does a good job of re-emphasizing some stuff, of dialing up the conflict inherent in the premise of contract monsters. Like, Shinji's distrust of Ren, or his suspicion of Ren's monster, I think that becomes a lot more believable now. But, still, you'll not get a ton of push back from me if you felt like the way the show conveyed Ren's origin and motivation was underwhelming. It definitely could've been better.
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03-20-2020, 05:51 PM | #128 |
The Immortal King Tasty
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Quote:
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Oh, and yeah, the amnesia episodes. Again, definitely not perfect, but I do think they come together well enough when all is said and done. If you still have any doubts about whether these episodes were worth the time spent, just remember: at least Kobayashi was nice enough to let you see all this backstory before episode 40.
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03-20-2020, 06:00 PM | #129 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
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No, Die, you're supposed to be describing things that are boring about the episode there. "Guy flashing his trading card at things like his life depends on it... because it does" is just plain wonderful imagery. That sort of surreal mix of stupidity of horror is classic Rider goodness. Taking an absurd idea and completely committing to it.
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03-20-2020, 06:27 PM | #130 |
Ex-Weather Three leader
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,488
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And next, episode 13. That one person I think was important in Ryuki finally debuts.
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