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04-30-2020, 08:10 AM | #621 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 182
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I mean, it's hard to argue with turning a Contract Monster into a bike. Both Survives do it, and Alternative does it at one point. It's incredibly cool. I'll be honest, I still think I like Knight's Survive bike better. I think it's Knight's cape? Capes on bikes are totally impractical, which makes them awesome. It's like one better than a scarf, which is the minimum required neck attire for a motorcyclist.
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04-30-2020, 09:26 AM | #622 |
Showa Girl
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 9,064
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Y'know, I like discussing the emotions and the meaning and just everything that's on a deeper level about Ryuki, but also can we just turn this into a "the upgrade form bikes are fucking sick" appreciation thread?
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04-30-2020, 09:37 AM | #623 |
Warrior of Delusions!
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Wait, you dont know either?
Posts: 5,825
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Things that turn into bikes are very cool, end of.
Also, time for me to come clean - I haven't seen Ryuki, but I love the designs for the Riders. "Knight plugsuits", as Die put it, is a great description, and they just look so sleek. So good. Ryuki, Alternative, Ouja, Verde, Femme all look so great in their simplicity.
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04-30-2020, 10:23 AM | #624 |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 1,290
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One thing for sure, just forget everything about "They took family trips to the beach that Yui clings to and retreats to". That's just a false memory Yui employs (due to her having a case of repressed memory) before Sanako finally reveals the truth, she clearly remarks how wrong she actually is in the return trip to Mirror Mansion. Besides why they draw Oarai Coast? Because, some pictures were recreation of something they saw around the house, like a photo of a ship on the Oarai Coast. Pretty sure the "These kids were clearly sent to school, dressed, fed" part comes from Sanako (if you talk about how Yui's teased by classmates for seeing monsters, that should happen after the parents abuse because she can see the monsters, means she has merged with her Mirror self), she took Shiro for a while until he recovered, they aren't instantly separated. Quote:
But why does any of that stuff work that way? A show, even a Kamen Rider show, can't just say stuff like that and move on. These two kids just drew a magic world of monsters and duplicates into existence? How? Are they magic? Is the mirror magic? Is the mansion magic? Did the Mirror World exist before they found it? Why was there only a duplicate of Yui? Why did the duplicate forget she was a duplicate?
I'm just pointing out that they draw themselves too because there are people who are confused about Mirror Yui and Shiro appearing, but somehow not about Mirror Monsters appearing. Just have to remind that they also draw themselves in addition to the monsters (and for "why there's only duplicate of Yui?", the only humans they draw are themselves, they drew no other humans, as Yui pointed out in her disintegration scene, that time they only created a world for both of them with monsters as their protectors - to cope with their parents abuse). I'd say for "the Mirror World exist before they found it?", Mirror World is just the existing fantasy place in a setting, like Game World in Ex-Aid, Planet Blood in Build, or Helheim Forest on Gaim. For her forgetting, Yui has a case of repressed memory, which according to a source, means "a condition where a specific memory has been unconsciously blocked by an individual due to the high level of stress or trauma (all parts of their abuse, definitely, the duplicate merging with her also happens at that time of their life) contained in that memory." Quote:
This was a good time for her to cry! It is okay to cry when you are evaporating! Free pass!
Also, I just felt for her then. A death scene's tough, especially a special effect-y death scene like hers. It's tough to get to that primal emotion, and I thought the actor really delivered. Super subjective, but I thought the performance was aces. I was mostly talking about the hero Riders, specifically Ren and Shinji. I, uh, I wasn't super into caring about how Shiro felt at that point. He's a monster, and I couldn't muster much sympathy for him then. (And I thought the actor botched his part of the Yui death scene, so double eff that dude.) Of course I'm not talking about giving sympathy to him, he doesn't deserve it (and pleeeease don't, some people have been giving sympathy to villains just because they have bad backstory and/or allegedly good motivation, and thus ignoring their atrocities. Shiro has those 2, dunno if people give him sympathy based on that but there are number of other villains considered good/misguided because of having those 2 traits). I mean Shinji literally opposes him right after the scene, carrying Yui on. That should be enough indication not to side with him. But just want to explain from your mistake, that you thought the war is eternal and "no one can be saved", but Yui's disintegration here, happened before her birthday, so Shiro thinks there's still enough time to save her, but he's running out of time to do that, so he loses his shit (and the echo in his voice) completely. I̶f̶ ̶i̶t̶'̶s̶ ̶t̶r̶u̶l̶y̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶e̶n̶d̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶Y̶u̶i̶,̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶n̶o̶ ̶o̶n̶e̶ ̶c̶a̶n̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶s̶a̶v̶e̶d̶, ̶T̶i̶m̶e̶ ̶V̶e̶n̶t̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶r̶e̶s̶t̶a̶r̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶w̶a̶r̶.̶ Quote:
I don't remember Shiro handing out sick days before! Kitaoka's been dying this entire time (and been hospitalized before!) and there was never an indication that his participation was optional. And, yeah, Shiro needs them to die before he can end the Rider Battles, but neither Asakura nor Kitaoka are actually dead by the time Shiro declares Ren the final competitor. Even when Kitaoka was definitely still alive in the previous episode, Shiro was just like Three Is Enough. If the number doesn't even seem to matter, why have so many competitors chewing up the clock?
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That's a neat take, but I don't recall a word of that actually being stated in an episode of Masked Rider Ryuki. I'm not saying it's wrong, but it's nothing that's been on this show, so I can't really speak to it. I certainly don't feel like it's irrefutable proof of anything.
̶F̶r̶e̶s̶h̶ ̶O̶u̶j̶a̶ ̶t̶a̶k̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶a̶ ̶l̶e̶g̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶m̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶l̶e̶s̶s̶ ̶i̶m̶p̶r̶e̶s̶s̶i̶v̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶n̶ ̶c̶r̶i̶t̶i̶c̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶i̶n̶j̶u̶r̶e̶d̶ ̶R̶y̶u̶k̶i̶-̶w̶h̶o̶-̶c̶a̶n̶'̶t̶-̶p̶o̶s̶e̶-̶f̶o̶r̶-̶F̶i̶n̶a̶l̶-̶V̶e̶n̶t̶ ̶d̶o̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶.̶ Means it's a total onslaught on humans, but not on Riders. This brings up Mirror World discussion again but it seems that, some Mirror Monsters can reappear after they are killed (probably cases like Raydragoons here is 1 Mirror Monster duplicated over and over), which by itself, an unavoidable fate. |
04-30-2020, 10:26 AM | #625 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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I mean, it's just now, at Episode 49, that I'm like Ryuki Survive Is Gross. How long has that suit been around for? Twenty episodes? More? It's weird, you guys. Thank you for indulging me. Also, one of my all-time favorite Riders in anything is Lazer, whose own upgrade form is a bike, so, yes, very into acknowledging how awesome bike upgrades are.
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04-30-2020, 10:40 AM | #626 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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Not simple as in the whole backstory, but regarding their parents only. Regarding some questions I see other asked about why their parents are that evil? The answers are that it's realistic, sometimes parents are just shitty people, no one has to love their kids and that this is a real thing that happens to children all over the world.
One thing for sure, just forget everything about "They took family trips to the beach that Yui clings to and retreats to". That's just a false memory Yui employs (due to her having a case of repressed memory) before Sanako finally reveals the truth, she clearly remarks how wrong she actually is in the return trip to Mirror Mansion. Besides why they draw Oarai Coast? Because, some pictures were recreation of something they saw around the house, like a photo of a ship on the Oarai Coast. Pretty sure the "These kids were clearly sent to school, dressed, fed" part comes from Sanako (if you talk about how Yui's teased by classmates for seeing monsters, that should happen after the parents abuse because she can see the monsters, means she has merged with her Mirror self), she took Shiro for a while until he recovered, they aren't instantly separated. The parents' villainy... that's what I mean by them being cartoonishly evil. They are monstrous for completely unexplained reasons, and to such an absurd degree, that it's difficult to take seriously. (Are they seriously keeping these kids alive, and then when one of them drops dead they're just like Stop Making So Much Noise?!) I can't get on board with the backstory of the abusive parents, dramatically. The other problem is that making Yui an unreliable narrator, it's tough to give a shit about her story if it's all lies in the end. What in the hell is she supposed to be protecting? Fighting for? Why should her disappearing be a loss? That's the "moving target" thing I was talking about. Depending on where you are in the series, Yui's either someone whose life is a complicated string of disappointments, desperate to return to the safety of childhood and her family... or she's a survivor of intense, fatal trauma who has a comparatively idyllic existence. It's not that a show can't reframe a backstory, Kamen Rider does it every single series, but the way they did it with Yui makes her either delusional or manipulated, or both. Fun choices!
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04-30-2020, 01:37 PM | #627 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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MASKED RIDER RYUKI EPISODE 50
Here's the moment I lost it. Goro's revealed as Zolda, fighting Ouja in Kitaoka's place. Goro has to fight, because Kitaoka has died, unable to finish the last piece of business he had in the Rider Battles. He felt responsible for making Asakura a Rider, and wanted to end that rivalry for good. But he's dead, laid to rest on his couch, holding a white rose. The same type of white rose that's on the table in the restaurant where Reiko waits for Kitaoka, a snowstorm outside. She waits, and notices that one of Kitaoka's knives is askew. He'd hate that. So she turns it, straightens it, makes it perfect for him. A small gesture. He'd never know she did it. But she thought of him, and fixed it. That moment destroyed me. Even reading that last paragraph, I tear up. It's a sad episode. Everyone dies. But it's a bittersweet episode, where a year's worth of character development blooms like a flower, creating something beautiful. So much of this episode, grounded in character, creates moments, indelible moments, of grace and catharsis. Lives get lived, and eventually they end. Nothing can last forever. The point isn't to keep it, the point is to appreciate it, treasure it. It's something Shiro finally realizes, as he watches the sacrifices of all of the Riders, the catastrophic damage the Rider Battles have wrought, and realizes that it doesn't matter. Yui will come back, but she won't live like that. She'd never allow it. And he could use Time Vent, spinning it all back and trying again, but it still wouldn't matter. She'd never be happy with Shiro's choices. But he needs to save her, like everyone in the show fought for their hopes and dreams. That friction, of needing something so badly that you're blinded to the consequences, it's at the heart of this show. In the end, in keeping with the deaths of everyone we've followed over the series, it's about letting go. It's about being able to take that hurt and find some way to keep it from destroying you, find some way to appreciate what you have. Shiro can't keep Yui with him, but the memory of what they had, the literal and figurative ghost of her, maybe that can be a solace. Maybe it's okay if things end. Maybe fighting to keep them, at the cost of your soul, is ruining why they mattered. It's hard to talk about the specifics of an episode like this. The first third is a dirge, everything you love ending. The middle third is the mastermind realizing the futility of his plan, abandoning the final confrontation. And then the final third is optimism, a second chance, a new world for our heroes and villains alike. The first third worked like gangbusters for me. The silence of Asakura's charge into oblivion. The inevitability of Goro's reveal as Zolda, his death to honor Kitaoka's last wishes. (I never for a second thought Zolda was Kitaoka, but that doesn't rob that sequence of an ounce of power.) Reiko moving that cutlery, a brief moment of consideration for a man who infuriated her. It's all so considered. There's a poetry to this part, tragic demises and missed connections. The middle third... I can see why they wanted to make the ending of this story focus on Shiro realizing his mistake. Shiro's power and pain isn't something you can defeat. But the acceptance he has, the reward he receives in that acceptance... That rehabilitation doesn't work great for me. It's a monster who realized far too late that he was a monster, and allows himself to be loved. I don't want good things for Shiro, no matter how sad he was. He ruined too many lives. But then, in that final third, maybe he didn't? Maybe he could make it so the Rider Battles never happened, where Mirror Yui never occurred, where everyone gets a second chance. I don't completely know how I feel about this part yet. It's nice, certainly. It's great to see Tezuka again, unhelpful as always. The sequence of Shinji pushing his scooter through the entire cast of the show, only to end up at Atori for tea, it's a victory lap of a scene. I just... I wonder if it undercuts the hard-earned melancholy of the first part of the episode, and the thematic point of Shiro's letting go. For a climax that hinges on Shiro being okay with how things turned out, to stop forcing them to be what he needs, what does it mean if he brings everyone back? Does that choice contradict his growth? It's a nice ending, but is it too nice? I don't know just yet. But Ryuki's a show about asking questions, about trying to understand what you want, and I'm okay mulling it over for a while.
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04-30-2020, 02:00 PM | #628 |
take me to space
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 1,406
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I'm sure you're going to find yourself met with all sorts of posts about the ending, probably even some suggestions on how you should feel about it. If it helps, it took me nearly a decade before I solidified my own feelings about Ryuki's ending.
I was expecting you to dislike it mostly because the ending comes down to Shiro letting Yui and himself disappear, which also has the side-effect of undoing all the harm he's done. The story ends on the note of the Kanzaki's tragic story being allowed to end, and I knew you didn't care at all for them, or at least not for Shiro. I'm not really invested in the Kanzaki family and their weirdness myself, but... I do get it. All the other characters reach the end of their story, and the show decided it was not their place to see this whole Rider War to the end, but the man who started it all. I think that's fair, even if a more conventional ending of either Shinji or Ren being the ones to put the end to it would have personally made me happier. Most people's gripes with the ending is just that it rewinds everything like nothing has happened, but I don't see it that way. Like I said, that everyone gets a second chance to live is just a side-effect of Shiro's decision, that he wouldn't burden anyone's lives anymore. I honestly think if everyone stayed dead, it wouldn't make much difference to the narrative, other than being sadder. That all said, I still don't care that much for Shiro. He was certainly cool as a villain, at times appearing like an antagonistic force of nature, and seeming utterly untouchable whenever our heroes tried to physically confront him. But I wasn't interested in his story. It was Shinji, Ren, Kitaoka, and all the other participants of this battle for survival, and all of their tragic ends that leave me with fond memories of Ryuki. If you don't end up ever coming around to the Mirror World and Kanzaki parts of the show, then I hope all the Rider vs Rider stuff outshines all that whenever you think back to this show. Last edited by FreshToku; 04-30-2020 at 02:07 PM.. |
04-30-2020, 02:24 PM | #629 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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Quote:
I'm sure you're going to find yourself met with all sorts of posts about the ending, probably even some suggestions on how you should feel about it. If it helps, it took me nearly a decade before I solidified my own feelings about Ryuki's ending.
I was expecting you to dislike it mostly because the ending comes down to Shiro letting Yui and himself disappear, which also has the side-effect of undoing all the harm he's done. The story ends on the note of the Kanzaki's tragic story being allowed to end, and I knew you didn't care at all for them, or at least not for Shiro. I'm not really invested in the Kanzaki family and their weirdness myself, but... I do get it. All the other characters reach the end of their story, and the show decided it was not their place to see this whole Rider War to the end, but the man who started it all. I think that's fair, even if a more conventional ending of either Shinji or Ren being the ones to put the end to it would have personally made me happier. Most people's gripes with the ending is just that it rewinds everything like nothing has happened, but I don't see it that way. Like I said, that everyone gets a second chance to live is just a side-effect of Shiro's decision, that he wouldn't burden anyone's lives anymore. I honestly think if everyone stayed dead, it wouldn't make much difference to the narrative, other than being sadder. That all said, I still don't care that much for Shiro. He was certainly cool as a villain, at times appearing like an antagonistic force of nature, and seeming utterly untouchable whenever our heroes tried to physically confront him. But I wasn't interested in his story. It was Shinji, Ren, Kitaoka, and all the other participants of this battle for survival, and all of their tragic ends that leave me with fond memories of Ryuki. If you don't end up ever coming around to the Mirror World and Kanzaki parts of the show, then I hope all the Rider vs Rider stuff outshines all that whenever you think back to this show. I'll probably touch on this in a series overview post, but I don't think Kanzaki story worked that well dramatically. There're a lot of reasons, more than I want to get into right this second. Some of them are super-subjective, I can't lie. But overall, I was not that invested in Shiro's redemption. And it's not an I Didn't Want To See The Villain Redeemed complaint, because I really loved Ghost's (real) ending, with The Hug That Ended A War. I just didn't care about this villain getting this redemption. That said, it's imagined inventively, with both versions of Shiro and Yui surrounded by their happiest memory, working together to devise a refuge from the world. That's a great visual to end their story on. A+ set design. But, no, it's the character stuff that's most rewarding to me in this show. It's a testament to how great the character stuff is that my dislike of the Mirror World story couldn't overshadow how invested I was in these people. Bringing everyone back... still not sure about that. It's an incredibly bleak ending, for sure, if they all stay dead. I'm not super worried about the stakes argument, that none of it mattered since it was all undone. I mean, "mattered"... what the hell does that even mean? It's a story. Them making it so a new story can be told instead... did they delete my copies of the first 49 and a half episodes of Ryuki? No? Then I'm not mad about that part. But everyone coming back, even if it's just a by-product of him never leaving that room when Shiro and Yui were kids, I'm not sure what it says about Shiro learning his lesson. I worry that it undos some of that character development, even incidentally. Like, I'm not mad about that final third. I wouldn't argue that it's a mistake. But it feels weird to me. It's a weird choice.
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04-30-2020, 02:35 PM | #630 |
Showa Girl
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 9,064
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I have other thoughts that I may or may not give later - depends on if I know how to put it into words - but one thing I wanna put out there is that I don't think "world reset, everyone back alive again" is necessarily bad. Like any narrative tool it all depends on how you use it, what the context is, how well it fits your themes and messages etc etc.
And in Ryuki's case, I think it mostly succeeds. For me at least, it gives the whole series a framing of "this is how things could be if we're like this, and society does that", and I find that really interesting. Like a... I don't want to say a warning, because that sounds very authoritative and superior which completely goes against a lot of the show's messages, and it doesn't feel like that. More like a peek into how things could be, into a very different very violent alternate world; to make you question what sort of world you want. Like I said before, Ryuki was a series that ultimately I feel is not for me; but on reflection I think has so much going for it and so many positives I can speak of it. And I genuinely think the way they used the world reset is one of them. One more thing I'd like to say is that while I don't necessarily agree with all your reasoning on it (abuse can... abuse can just be really whack like that. There's rarely a logic or consistency to it because it isn't a logical or consistent thing to do), I do overall agree that the Mirror World lore and backstory and all the rest of it is a big negative of the series. It just had me asking questions and frankly not the ones I think they wanted me to ask, and not ones that lead to any positive answers. The whole thing does feel very poorly thought out and very "this-is-my-second-draft-at-3AM-with-all-my-disconnected-thoughts-I'll-figure-out-how-it-all-actually-works-later". I sort of understand what they're going for, but that's despite how it's communicated rather than because of it.
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