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04-30-2020, 02:37 PM | #631 |
take me to space
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This is going to sound like I'm ragging on Shiro but I don't think he cared much about anyone other than himself and Yui at the end. His decision was just about letting himself move on, accepting that what he's doing is pointless. Everyone else getting to live because of that decision was probably way at the back of his mind, if it even ever occurred to him at all.
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04-30-2020, 02:48 PM | #632 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
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I have other thoughts that I may or may not give later - depends on if I know how to put it into words - but one thing I wanna put out there is that I don't think "world reset, everyone back alive again" is necessarily bad. Like any narrative tool it all depends on how you use it, what the context is, how well it fits your themes and messages etc etc.
And in Ryuki's case, I think it mostly succeeds. For me at least, it gives the whole series a framing of "this is how things could be if we're like this, and society does that", and I find that really interesting. Like a... I don't want to say a warning, because that sounds very authoritative and superior which completely goes against a lot of the show's messages, and it doesn't feel like that. More like a peek into how things could be, into a very different very violent alternate world; to make you question what sort of world you want. Like I said before, Ryuki was a series that ultimately I feel is not for me; but on reflection I think has so much going for it and so many positives I can speak of it. And I genuinely think the way they used the world reset is one of them. One more thing I'd like to say is that while I don't necessarily agree with all your reasoning on it (abuse can... abuse can just be really whack like that. There's rarely a logic or consistency to it because it isn't a logical or consistent thing to do), I do overall agree that the Mirror World lore and backstory and all the rest of it is a big negative of the series. It just had me asking questions and frankly not the ones I think they wanted me to ask, and not ones that lead to any positive answers. The whole thing does feel very poorly thought out and very "this-is-my-second-draft-at-3AM-with-all-my-disconnected-thoughts-I'll-figure-out-how-it-all-actually-works-later". I sort of understand what they're going for, but that's despite how it's communicated rather than because of it. The parental abuse story elements... I don't want it to sound like there needs to be a strict, logical reason to abuse two children. (The fact that I had to write that sentence at all is not my proudest moment.) That's something that by its nature is inexplicable. It's more that that level of abuse is not the sort of thing you just toss in at the end of a superhero show for children. That is a gigantic premise that is almost insulting to use as thematic mortar. I think they're playing with fire, narratively. The idea of the reset being a better version of these characters, I can see it a little bit... but then Asakura's there, being a violent asshole? It's like everyone's back, but no one's really better? They'll be safer, for sure (well, again: Asakura), but that's the only real advantage they have. It's mildly optimistic, a second chance for characters who doomed themselves, but that's at best implied, at worst inferred. And I don't dislike the use of a story reset at the end of a story. I mean, Build! Build used it perfectly! Here, it doesn't really feel grown out of the story they were telling. It feels... incongruent? It feels like an emotional choice that they're struggling to rationalize. Or maybe that's just me!
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04-30-2020, 02:50 PM | #633 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
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This is going to sound like I'm ragging on Shiro but I don't think he cared much about anyone other than himself and Yui at the end. His decision was just about letting himself move on, accepting that what he's doing is pointless. Everyone else getting to live because of that decision was probably way at the back of his mind, if it even ever occurred to him at all.
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04-30-2020, 03:09 PM | #634 |
take me to space
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I guess that's the heart of why I dislike Shiro's happy ending. He doesn't acknowledge his mistakes, exactly, he just admits the futility of them. He tries a different way to get what he wants, without ever really valuing anything other than getting what he wants. It's a sympathetic ending for someone who never really deserved the audience's sympathy.
Also if Ryuki's ending happened today, I would probably cynically say it was for the sake of the next Winter crossover movie! Unless the next season after was Ghost, then Takeru could meet Shinji's spirit and... Yeah, anyway, can't wait for you to get to the movie. ...The Ryuki movie, not this hypothetical crossover. Last edited by FreshToku; 04-30-2020 at 03:12 PM.. |
04-30-2020, 03:19 PM | #635 |
Showa Girl
Join Date: Jun 2018
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Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
The parental abuse story elements... I don't want it to sound like there needs to be a strict, logical reason to abuse two children. (The fact that I had to write that sentence at all is not my proudest moment.) That's something that by its nature is inexplicable. It's more that that level of abuse is not the sort of thing you just toss in at the end of a superhero show for children. That is a gigantic premise that is almost insulting to use as thematic mortar. I think they're playing with fire, narratively. Quote:
The idea of the reset being a better version of these characters, I can see it a little bit... but then Asakura's there, being a violent asshole? It's like everyone's back, but no one's really better? They'll be safer, for sure (well, again: Asakura), but that's the only real advantage they have. It's mildly optimistic, a second chance for characters who doomed themselves, but that's at best implied, at worst inferred.
And I don't dislike the use of a story reset at the end of a story. I mean, Build! Build used it perfectly! Here, it doesn't really feel grown out of the story they were telling. It feels... incongruent? It feels like an emotional choice that they're struggling to rationalize. Or maybe that's just me! Which... good. Ryuki's a series that plays with very realistic settings (alongside a guy in a green jumpsuit summoning his robot minotaur of death but, y'know. Relative terms.), realistic stakes, and realistic characters. It's not going to pretend that if The Big Very Bad Thing didn't happen then everything would go all right, and everyone would make the right choices, and that there wouldn't be monsters out there doing very real very terrible things. And to me that gives a few positive outcomes here:- A) Once again, it asks the viewer what sort of world they want. This isn't a new perfect world made just for you where everything will go well: this is your second chance. This is asking the viewer to do things right, considering all the conflict and circumstances they've just seen in the series and how it relates to the real world. B) It makes the viewer much more aware of how these people could exist in real life; how real their struggles are and how they exist beyond the realms of how they interact with a fantasy world where they're trying to kill monsters. C) ... The idea of "Even without catastrophe, the world was never perfect or without its evils to defeat" is. An extremely mature and brave message to put out there for a series that was made as a response to 9/11. That's basically where I'm at with the ending. It's not trying to say "now that the mirror world stuff is gone, everything is okay!". It's instead saying "now that the mirror world stuff is gone, what have you learned, what else is out there and what can you do to make the world a better place?" After all, that's kind of what Shinji was all about. While definitely one of the most naive and more foolhardy main Riders, he wasn't exactly thinking that the world was perfect before he ran into his first Mirror Monster. He was a journalist; albeit a rookie and an assistant in his field, but he was still seeing every day what other terrible shit was happening in the world and even if he was doing it one minor step at a time, he was always trying to do what he felt was the best way to help people. He was always a hero trying to do his best in this world; Rider Deck or not.
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04-30-2020, 03:23 PM | #636 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
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Oh, for sure. I think that's actually the reason why I didn't like Adel's ending in Ghost. With Shiro here though, I at least didn't get the impression that the show was telling me that I should feel sympathy for him. The scenes sold to me that what we were seeing was just sort of a natural conclusion of his story, rather than trying to make me sad for him. ...I was a little sad all the same though. Just a little.
With Shiro's ending, it's thematically sound but dramatically inert. The only character who pushes him to change is Yui. Shinji and Ren, the two ostensible leads in the show, don't even factor in to Shiro's decision-making. And, really, he makes that decision by himself, in isolation, days after Yui's plea for him to see reason. There's no feeling of the heroes' actions having any bearing on the villain's redemption. Look, if people could just start referring to Ghost as "Ryuki, but better", I'd really appreciate it, thanks. (Ghost is not Ryuki but better! I'm just stirring shit!) Quote:
Also if Ryuki's ending happened today, I would probably cynically say it was for the sake of the next Winter crossover movie! Unless the next season after was Ghost, then Takeru could meet Shinji's spirit and... Yeah, anyway, can't wait for you to get to the movie. ...The Ryuki movie, not this hypothetical crossover.
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04-30-2020, 03:26 PM | #637 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
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That's basically where I'm at with the ending. It's not trying to say "now that the mirror world stuff is gone, everything is okay!". It's instead saying "now that the mirror world stuff is gone, what have you learned, what else is out there and what can you do to make the world a better place?"
After all, that's kind of what Shinji was all about. While definitely one of the most naive and more foolhardy main Riders, he wasn't exactly thinking that the world was perfect before he ran into his first Mirror Monster. He was a journalist; albeit a rookie and an assistant in his field, but he was still seeing every day what other terrible shit was happening in the world and even if he was doing it one minor step at a time, he was always trying to do what he felt was the best way to help people. He was always a hero trying to do his best in this world; Rider Deck or not.
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04-30-2020, 03:30 PM | #638 |
The Immortal King Tasty
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Legitimately, though? You say you need some time to process this one, but I think you're already a lot further on your way there than you might think. I'm not too sure what I really have to add right now, and I'll probably just save it for after you do your wrapup post. I do want to say some stuff about Shirou though. I'm probably wading into unpopular opinion territory again, so let's see how this goes. The Mirror World stuff, it's not great. It could be a lot tighter and a lot simpler. Yui, honestly, one of my least favorite Rider heroines ever, which I've avoided saying this whole time to avoid being too blunt about it. She's a little too static, underdeveloped, and pushed out of her own story way too much. I've played devil's advocate on those points here and there, but at the end of the day I also don't disagree too much with most of what you've said about her. And Kanzaki? Yeah, he's a great mirror ghost dude and it's funny when he tells people to fight, but the idea of there being more to him than that? It's a tough sell. And he legitimately didn't know what to do with his hands in that scene where Yui disappears! That was very awkward! But in the end? That last episode? I seriously think it all comes together in a way where I don't find myself too upset about the journey getting there. The resolution to Shirou's character is pretty much perfect, both for how much it fits the show, and for how it kinda reframes him and makes everything click into place. He's not like some A+ villain, I guess, but something about the idea of this person that really isn't even a person anymore. This guy who seems to not even register the world around him as something that exists, blind to everything except his desire to save the only person he ever loved, who's become a total shell in his relentless pursuit of that goal. A ghost in more ways than one. I don't know, something about that jives with me, and him kind of finding just enough humanity in himself at the very end to realize he doesn't belong, I think that works great. As for whether or not his big lesson is undone by everyone coming back, I mean, I think he wouldn't have been learning his lesson if they didn't? You can probably tell how much more sympathetic I am to him when I say this, but I've always viewed the Riders getting their lives back at part of his penance, pretty much. It's not just a happy byproduct of letting Yui go, it's the trade-off. He never, ever had a right to mess with these people's lives the way he did, and because of that, it just makes way more sense for them to get those second chances when he gives up on having one for himself and Yui. It's not about their lives being better or worse. At all. It's just about them having less Shirou. Or at least I think I think all of these things? I feel like I'm not making sense again, but hopefully something in there was at least some food for thought. I might be willing to throw this entire show under the bus to get you to say more nice things about Ghost, who knows?
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04-30-2020, 03:38 PM | #639 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
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Or at least I think I think all of these things? I feel like I'm not making sense again, but hopefully something in there was at least some food for thought. I might be willing to throw this entire show under the bus to get you to say more nice things about Ghost, who knows?
Thanks for the feedback on the ending! I'm finding it fascinating how people process the timeline reset, and you've got a neat take on it. I don't know how much I'm ever going to believe Shiro regretted his actions, but I definitely like to keep it as a possibility. Also, man, are we ever going to talk about Shiro's hair? I have a not-entirely-joking theory that the same head of hair that makes him seem otherworldly and unreachable keeps him from being sympathetic and human enough to deliver the show's intended ending.
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04-30-2020, 03:52 PM | #640 |
The Immortal King Tasty
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But I'd like to think, somewhere deep down, he did realize, at least a little, how much he f***ed up beyond that. And even if he didn't, all the people Shirou made unhappy was one of the things making Yui unhappy, so it'd still fit in there somewhere.
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