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10-13-2018, 06:13 AM | #1 |
Have Zord, Will Travel
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: MI
Posts: 5,719
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Sougo and the team visit a magic show, and the strange abilities demonstrated make him suspect Another Rider may be responsible...
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10-16-2018, 12:23 AM | #2 |
I have a problematic type
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,410
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I liked this one. I feel like I'm starting to get a better handle on the characters and how they bounce off of each other. A lot more Woz this time, too, which again helped him feel a bit more fleshed out.
What I really liked was that the Another Rider this time isn't a rampaging monster and really didn't act aggressively until pushed. He was just a normal dude using Wizard's powers for minor fame and glory to impress Minase Yashiro (a goal I can totally understand and support 100% - man, it is nice to see her in something again). It's a god way to expose some of the major faultlines that exist between Sougo and Geiz's approaches to Kamen Riding. As a minor sidenote, my least favorite character on the show is now officially Geiz's tactical muffler. It was kinda funny the first time he wore it with a different outfit but I am completely over that ugly thing now. It is the Onari of Kamen Rider Zi-O. |
10-16-2018, 01:08 AM | #3 |
King of the Rolex
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Digital World
Posts: 452
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Quote:
I liked this one. I feel like I'm starting to get a better handle on the characters and how they bounce off of each other. A lot more Woz this time, too, which again helped him feel a bit more fleshed out.
What I really liked was that the Another Rider this time isn't a rampaging monster and really didn't act aggressively until pushed. He was just a normal dude using Wizard's powers for minor fame and glory to impress Minase Yashiro (a goal I can totally understand and support 100% - man, it is nice to see her in something again). It's a god way to expose some of the major faultlines that exist between Sougo and Geiz's approaches to Kamen Riding. As a minor sidenote, my least favorite character on the show is now officially Geiz's tactical muffler. It was kinda funny the first time he wore it with a different outfit but I am completely over that ugly thing now. It is the Onari of Kamen Rider Zi-O. |
10-16-2018, 03:58 PM | #4 |
The Immortal King Tasty
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Every diner you've ever been to.
Posts: 3,833
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Hey everyone, guess what time it is!
Time for some of us to feel really old... Fortunately this episode was good enough to distract me from any existential crises. Less fortunately, I can't think of too much to say about it beyond that. I appreciate how decompressed this episode was, and the characters really are getting better each week, with even Woz getting something to do this time that goes beyond just shilling for Zi-O or advancing the plot. But that same slower pace that allows for more character moments also leaves the plot feeling a bit on the anemic side. The Victim of the Week was nicely fleshed out, but nothing long-term happened, and since this is VERY distinctly part one of two, it's hard to comment on it as its own thing since it's inherently all setup and no payoff. Now, of course, the funny thing about that last paragraph is that it's a perfect description of a lot of episodes of Wizard. So, unintentionally or not, they've once again nailed the feeling of the series they're paying tribute to.
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10-16-2018, 05:35 PM | #5 |
Omnipresent Historian
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: In the now.
Posts: 707
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Still watching the ep now, but right at the beginning love the concept it establishes about "The power of friendship." Especially coming right off of the Fourze/Faiz story.
Though we're also seeing that Sougo is likely negatively impacted by Geiz's friendship, unless Sougo's mellow aspect can make Geiz chill later. Tsukuyomi is coming off a bit like an apologist not seeing the similarity between Geiz and how Oma Zi-O acts, but interesting how Woz sees it and is now pushing for Geiz and Sougo to become friends because of how he thinks Sougo needs Geiz's influence. Loved seeing more of Woz's black butler aspects coming out more too. Really looking forward to how his character develops, and liking how the show is progressing on the character aspects to how it interacts with the story they are dealing with. Including how they are dealing with "Another Riders" in a different than formula way. Liked the Minority Report influences in this episode a bit, and liked how it tried to show prejudice and pre-judgement. Which is interesting in connotations of Wizard. Which then switched to a power corruption story. But Sougo is right, Geiz is taking it too far. Even factoring in his PTSD from the future, he's still a bit too aggressive. Which is interesting in how that's going to impact character development. Which is interesting in how Tsukuyomi makes excuses for it. Makes me a little disappointed in her character(though it is in character) as I'd expect a little more empathy from her in the fact they did attack first with no known victims yet. If Geiz and her had listened to Sougo, they could have resolved the whole thing peacefully. Which okay would have made a boring episode, but it does show an interesting aspect that aggressiveness isn't always the answer and makes bigger problems. Though Woz is getting more interesting, and his phrasing is interesting too. "Young Tsukuyomi." Like there's an older one. The way he talks to Geiz suggests similar in that regard. Besides them having history, it also alludes to Woz may know an older Geiz. Some interesting foreshadowing all around. Like not everything in the timeline is as cut and dry as they want the main trio to think. Seems like there's more to the Oma Zi-O faction than we've seen yet. At least likely in Tsukuyomi's case. Geiz still seems open ended, raising the question if his influence impacts Zi-O/Sougo, and why it leaves a lasting impression. Almost seems to allude to something like Geiz gets severely injured in the future because of Sougo's relaxed attitude. Which forces Sougo to adopt more of Geiz's ways to prevent that from happening again. Which is what creates Oma Zi-O. But then again, this show is also all about changing time, so we might get a lot of false starts storylines that the timeline diverges out of. The premise is entirely about changing the timeline afterall. The 7.5 was great too. Loved how they're diving into some of these topics about behind the scenes stuff for the 4th wall breaks and to also help get kids into looking at how shows are made. That "young tsukuyomi" line though really sticks out. It's such a small thing, but it really does imply there's an older one then. And if there is, what did she become? where is she now? The VCR bit mixed with the young Tsukuyomi remark seems to allude to some interesting future developments. Last edited by Librarian; 10-16-2018 at 06:20 PM.. |
10-16-2018, 06:56 PM | #6 |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 2,934
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Quote:
That "young tsukuyomi" line though really sticks out. It's such a small thing, but it really does imply there's an older one then. And if there is, what did she become? where is she now? The VCR bit mixed with the young Tsukuyomi remark seems to allude to some interesting future developments.
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10-16-2018, 07:45 PM | #7 |
Omnipresent Historian
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: In the now.
Posts: 707
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Quote:
You've gotta stop taking subtitles at face value like this. "Young Tsukuyomi" is just how Over-Time chose to translate "Tsukuyomi-kun." It's not a real descriptor of age or anything, as an honorific it only really reflects that the speaker is older or of a higher status than the person they're addressing. It's nothing to speculate about.
But if it's uncommon for Woz to refer to her like that, or use a term of endearment like that even playfully/teasingly, it's still a pertinent character detail. Since he doesn't use it elsewhere. It'd be a character building aspect with connotations over wide factors and intent that can range a wide area. And as the episode showed with Geiz and Woz having history, implies Tsukuyomi and Woz might too in many ways. As an honorific, -kun is often used more as a familiarity term too in rider shows. That's been a constant across many Rider shows where they either use it as a term of endearment or for belittling, and with how Woz's opening narration was very pointed about how they are from the same time period at the beginning, that pushes the use to be a mix of belittlement/endearment to suggest history with, and with Woz, history with sometimes means more than history with that current one, as we see with Sougo. With Sougo he uses more formal terms(but Woz also has respect for Sougo and what he becomes, and wants to stay in the good graces of his soon to be king, which again goes back to that kind of "black butler" aspect, and how Woz might be more informal/playful with older Sougo that became Oma Zi-O, but younger doesn't have that bond yet), but it'd make sense he'd have a more playful teasing aspect to Geiz and Tsukuyomi, both because of their interactions in their own time period, and because Woz knows more than he often says, as each episode implies in both the opening and closing. Which would mean he also does know what becomes of Geiz and Tsukuyomi too later in the timeline before it changes, if it changes. So to Woz, there would be a distinction of "older" and "younger" because he knows the full timeline as is before it changes. So actually yeah, it is something to speculate about. Especially in conjunction with the VCR conversation at the beginning. How that almost looked a mess with a ride watch type looking prototype device in it.(Though not really, seems more like a soft allusion using it as a quick blink and you miss it early detail that may not have much relevance but could, especially in conjunction with the 7.5 that was all about what ends up on the cutting room floor and what's kept.) :P Add that in with companionship remarks by Woz at the end, and the implications still suggest something to speculate about. I also said "if" there is an older Tsukuyomi. I didn't say there was. We honestly don't know. We do know that Woz wants Sougo to act more like Geiz though. We also don't know what made Sougo become Oma Zi-O. Which does seem to imply this timeline of interactions is a constant. Otherwise Woz would be more adamant about removing Tsukuyomi and Geiz from interfering and changing time. Instead, he already knew they would interfere as the first episode points out with Woz's warning. Which means historically he already knows they tried to interfere and it's part of the normal timeline for Oma Zi-O's rise. So that does imply there might be older ones of them too if they never left Sougo's side in trying to stop him from becoming Oma Zi-O, or being what set him on that path. Which now from this episode is looking more like something happening to Geiz is why. All the information to substantiate that is in the character interactions and foreshadowing already revealed in show. So there likely are older versions of Tsukuyomi and maybe Geiz if their previous timeline iterations lived as long as Oma Zi-O did since they were already part of the timeline for his rise. Now the show question is if this version of the "time loop" they can change that outcome, and how. (Which based on the upcoming forms, seems likely in Q2 sometime.) Based on what we've seen of Sougo's personality though and his growing really fond of her, I'm willing to bet if there is an 'older' Tsukuyomi, that's she's well protected or secure. Especially if something to do with Geiz is what set Oma Zi-O on the path to rising. But I do agree OT has had some rather weird subbing practices occasionally. Like changing the english word "memo" to "note". But the "-Kun" detail is not one to get that angry about. It still is a character relevant/character building detail to take notice of and what the implications can mean. How about not trying to lecture me and making yourself look foolish for other reasons though. Cause I can assure you, trying to lecture me is only going to make yourself look bad. Everything I've pointed out is in the details of the episodes as is already and based on displayed character traits and personality. And as they say, the devil is in the details. This show is very detail oriented. Now any future events is pure speculation since we don't know yet what caused Oma Zi-O to rise, but the details on the distinction for Woz still pan true for what he already knows of the timeline. Because unlike the audience, Woz does know. Including what happened to older Geiz and Tsukuyomi. Same as he knows what did originally make younger Sougo become Oma Zi-O. Last edited by Librarian; 10-16-2018 at 08:56 PM.. |
10-16-2018, 08:20 PM | #8 |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 2,934
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Referring to somebody as "young x" isn't particularly uncommon even without the knowledge that it's only a translation. You just took it too literally.
Quote:
But if it's uncommon for Woz to refer to her like that, or use a term of endearment like that even playfully/teasingly, it's still a pertinent character detail. Since he doesn't use it elsewhere. It'd be a character building aspect with connotations over wide factors and intent that can range a wide area. And as the episode showed with Geiz and Woz having history, implies Tsukuyomi and Woz might too in many ways.
Quote:
How about not trying to lecture me and making yourself look foolish for other reasons though. Cause I can assure you, trying to lecture me is only going to make yourself look bad later. Like I've said before, Woz gets his books from a library...
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10-16-2018, 09:58 PM | #9 |
Master Procrastinator
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 367
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Quote:
But if it's uncommon for Woz to refer to her like that, or use a term of endearment like that even playfully/teasingly, it's still a pertinent character detail. Since he doesn't use it elsewhere. It'd be a character building aspect with connotations over wide factors and intent that can range a wide area. And as the episode showed with Geiz and Woz having history, implies Tsukuyomi and Woz might too in many ways. As an honorific, -kun is often used more as a familiarity term too in rider shows. That's been a constant across many Rider shows where they either use it as a term of endearment or for belittling, and with how Woz's opening narration was very pointed about how they are from the same time period at the beginning, that pushes the use to be a mix of belittlement/endearment to suggest history with, and with Woz, history with sometimes means more than history with that current one, as we see with Sougo.
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10-16-2018, 10:35 PM | #10 |
Omnipresent Historian
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: In the now.
Posts: 707
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Another small detail I liked in this episode was the beginning with the Uncle at 9 to 5. His comments about fixing broken things and sometimes clocks. Then we get the rest of the episode, and see elements of how Geiz and Tsukuyomi are broken in how they reacted to the Another Rider. Which then comes back to how they now live there.
Which seems rather perfect to hint at that with Wizard considering his story and origin basis. *Edit* Another interesting detail this episode brought up that seems like a really big deal is that apparently Another Riders can revert to human even while the Another Rider watch is still active in them. We haven't seen that before. Seems like what could become a really important detail to not bring up. Another Riders can apparently still maintain a human identity and don't always become mindless like Another Build did. Quote:
You are trying to apply English thinking to Japanese language. That is not how any of that works. If you pay attention the term is a common horificic and it's ridiculous to read too much of it. I would say it would like trying to read a deep meaning behind one character calling another "miss." Sure, it means something, but nothing of real significance. It's a highly informal honorific, which given that she's a rebel with no status and he's a high servant of the king is not at all surprising. It's exactly how you'd expect him to address her.
So the implications are still there. And actually no, I'm not applying english to this, I'm applying common uses from other media(other japanese live media or anime) as well that uses it. Except in terms of an elder(Teacher or parent or other older similar forms of authority, though not as common because it usually carries connotations of familiarity or condescension), it's more often used as belittlement or endearment. With usually an emphasis on the person having it said to them should take offense as if being talked down to depending on the dynamic and closeness of the relationship/friendship. And Woz made it a big point that they are from the same time period at the beginning. Same as he made it a point not to talk down to Geiz as much but had pointed jabs in other ways(which goes to also how he wanted to get Geiz to help influence Sougo, so Woz 'needed something' from him, where Tsukuyomi displayed empathy, granted flawed empathy at the time considering what she tried to rationalize). So he is intentionally goading them and prodding them. But if you also look at the other points that are all in show story and details, I also substantiated why that choice was seemingly intentional and character defining. Especially since Woz doesn't use it in his narrations either when referencing them, which means it was intentionally pointed in direct conversation as a belittlement remark. Now whether "young" was an appropriate translation is a good question, but "little" may have been too pointed for belittlement in that scene as yet, and to convey it to the audience, the basic suffix adding on doesn't seem accurate either in this case because the talking down aspect seemed more emphatic(and literal visually from positioning). But Woz was indeed intentionally talking down to her(with an emphasis of calling her naive without calling her naive directly, implying something she's going to learn or grow out of later). Which goes back to character motivations, their history as he revealed with the Geiz interaction, and how he knows more of the timeline than he lets on as he lets the audience know at the beginning and end of every episode. Which also goes back to that "Sebastian to Sougo's Ciel" aspect of Woz's current character arc. So the rest of how I substantiated that still stands. Woz does know what will happen to them or in his view has happened to older them. Same as he knows how younger Sougo's life is supposed to unfold with them in it too, as he works for older Sougo. We've already had other episodes establish this. Literally episode 1 with how Woz already knew Geiz was stalking Sougo and how it was supposed to happen because from Woz's view, it already has happened. But please, do go on trying to lecture me about "English thinking" and making yourself look bad. I'm rather used to it from arrogant "fanboys" and how often the shows themselves prove them wrong. It's eye roll inducing on my side for various reasons. This episode was really loaded with side details and character building using a wide array of film/story techniques to do so without directly saying it to the audience through heavy handed exposition. Same as the previous episodes did this too. But again, heavy handed exposition is needed for those that are too dense and oblivious to it, which this episode foreshadowed is coming. Though it is funny you bring up "english thinking" on the Wizard episodes. Considering Wizard was heavily steeped in "English speaking" tropes. Down to even some character names like 'Rinka Daimon' or Diamond Ring, alongside other influences Wizard's show had. Last edited by Librarian; 10-17-2018 at 06:50 PM.. |
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