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05-02-2020, 06:13 PM | #701 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
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Sure, those are theories, but Kobayashi's writing style mainly utilizes Show, Don't Tell system. She won't tell you anything outright, and instead convey through hints, dialogues and character emotions. I think she purposefully wants her fans to just catch what they see happen in her story and make their own theories/assumptions about it, like what I explained about this before. So I think making theories to explain something is plausible when talking about Kobayashi's work.
The problem with Show Don't Tell is that, the more unfamiliar the terrain, the less the viewer is able to infer what the writer is trying to imply. Shiro's such a withholding character that a lot of what might've been intended didn't really come through, at least as far as the Rider Battles go. (The stuff with Yui is a little easier to get a grip on.) The mechanics of the plot are so seemingly contradictory, or at least unclear, that it's hard to even guess why some of these things are happening to the characters. It's going to make for a subjective viewing experience. For folks who love to create fan theories, who feel like a show is a jumping-off point for the real story, I'm sure Ryuki has a lot to offer, plot-wise. For me, I was looking for more robust story from a writer than what I got, I guess.
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05-03-2020, 04:39 AM | #702 |
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Well done! Lots of interesting things in the last several pages that I want to respond to, so I'll just cram everything here :v
On Episode Final: this was my very first KR movie ever, so I had a big soft spot for it. I agree that the Yui-Shiro/Mirror World was handled better here (I definitely connected more strongly with their story), it has terrific battle scenes, and Miho/Femme was one of its most memorable/best aspects. I was super bummed out with Miho's eventual fate and how she couldn’t escape the Female Rider Curse, but in retrospect, (1) this is at least in a show where every Rider character dies (one way or the other), and (2) I like the way they kinda subverted the ‘Dead Girlfriend/Love Interest Club’ trope by not having her give final words of encouragement or being used as some sort of ‘power-up’ for a prominent male character. She exited as a character that has a lovely and cute romantic sub-plot (still my favorite pairing in KR, sadly), but she also went out on her own terms and gave us plenty to remember about beyond just her relationship with a male character. Those shots of Shinji’s smiling at his fixed shoelaces, followed some moment later by passersby walking past Miho’s body without a care… just yet another juxtaposition of the heart-warming and the brutal in a series that’s so full of them. After my last rewatch, I actually did a bit of thought experiment to try to find a way to squeeze Femme, Verde, and Ryuga into the main series and have a proper ’13 Riders Show!!’ as advertised, while still maintaining the general essence and narrative beats of the show. That was a lot harder than expected. I figured you could have Verde as an early boss character in the vein of Scissors and Gai, making his mark and leaving in fairly quickly fashion (obviously Tezuka’s death should still follow the main series narrative, but because Verde’s Final Vent scene was by far the best thing from the Special, he still need to annihilate the hell out of somebody else). Femme could be introduced in mid-series and hang out until near the end, turning the core four Rider characters of Ryuki, Knight, Zolda, and Ouja into a core five. Ryuga would then appear in the show’s penultimate arc and got a bit more screen time than the movie, and after the conclusion of that, you'd proceed to the main series’ endgame. Problem was, assuming you still have the regular episode count to work with, there’s a lot that need to be cut to accommodate all that. The Tiger and Alternative parts can probably be shortened, but then would you cut the filler/comedic episodes/all the ORE Journal stuff? In any other series, I’d do it in a heartbeat, but not in Ryuki. Those parts are way too good. All in all, Ryuki is my favorite KR because it hit the perfect balance of comedic highs (low key it’s a supremely funny series), dramatic highs (so many memorable character arcs), and action highs (by far my favorite overall suit design, Rider line-up, and weapon gimmick. Fight scene choreography and music are also on point). For me, character overrides plot most of the time, except when the plot was so bad it actively derails character development—which didn’t really happen here. The flaws are mostly in structural and general world-building sense, and I can totally see how a viewer who’s more used to Heisei Phase II (only seen a few of those myself, but what’s immediately apparent to me is how it generally has more cogent world-building and plothole proofing compared to earlier Heisei ones) would be less tolerant to it. I myself would probably notice more of these in my next rewatch, but this thread also pointed out even more good things that I overlooked—so yeah, I’m pretty confident it’s still going to be my favorite KR after the rewatch. Looking forward to the next threads—I just finished Faiz last year (and currently almost done with Blade and Hibiki), so I may have plenty to chime in. Congrats again on finishing this project, and thank you for maintaining such a fun and thought-provoking content, especially in this extremely tough time. |
05-03-2020, 11:57 AM | #703 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
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I was super bummed out with Miho's eventual fate and how she couldn’t escape the Female Rider Curse, but in retrospect, (1) this is at least in a show where every Rider character dies (one way or the other), and (2) I like the way they kinda subverted the ‘Dead Girlfriend/Love Interest Club’ trope by not having her give final words of encouragement or being used as some sort of ‘power-up’ for a prominent male character. She exited as a character that has a lovely and cute romantic sub-plot (still my favorite pairing in KR, sadly), but she also went out on her own terms and gave us plenty to remember about beyond just her relationship with a male character. Those shots of Shinji’s smiling at his fixed shoelaces, followed some moment later by passersby walking past Miho’s body without a care… just yet another juxtaposition of the heart-warming and the brutal in a series that’s so full of them.
They have a very cute little romance, and I like how balanced their scenes are. She's not some bad-ass character who suddenly loses her autonomy to a man, swooning at his heroism. She's someone who manipulates and betrays, so the fact that this guy knows that and still wants to help, you can see how it wins her over. And for Shinji, this is someone who's like a less lost version of Ren, and maybe she just needs someone to be there for her, to let her know that she doesn't have to be alone in her mission. It's super organic, their relationship. Great writing, and pitch-perfect chemistry. I absolutely love that part of their dynamic is her trying to take care of a quick-tempered, somewhat scatterbrained Shinji. Just trying to corral this dude, keep him focused, it's great. The fact that her last thought was This Dude Cannot Take Care Of Himself Without Me is hilarious and 100% accurate. Quote:
After my last rewatch, I actually did a bit of thought experiment to try to find a way to squeeze Femme, Verde, and Ryuga into the main series and have a proper ’13 Riders Show!!’ as advertised, while still maintaining the general essence and narrative beats of the show. That was a lot harder than expected. I figured you could have Verde as an early boss character in the vein of Scissors and Gai, making his mark and leaving in fairly quickly fashion (obviously Tezuka’s death should still follow the main series narrative, but because Verde’s Final Vent scene was by far the best thing from the Special, he still need to annihilate the hell out of somebody else). Femme could be introduced in mid-series and hang out until near the end, turning the core four Rider characters of Ryuki, Knight, Zolda, and Ouja into a core five. Ryuga would then appear in the show’s penultimate arc and got a bit more screen time than the movie, and after the conclusion of that, you'd proceed to the main series’ endgame.
Problem was, assuming you still have the regular episode count to work with, there’s a lot that need to be cut to accommodate all that. The Tiger and Alternative parts can probably be shortened, but then would you cut the filler/comedic episodes/all the ORE Journal stuff? In any other series, I’d do it in a heartbeat, but not in Ryuki. Those parts are way too good. As for working in the other three Riders, interesting thought experiment! Femme is the most intriguing of the three, and that Shinji chemistry is great, so she'd definitely need to be in the series for a stretch. I'd introduce her when Ren starts to distance himself from the group, use her goals and connection to Shinji as a way of commenting on Ren's story. Ryuga I'd save until the very end, an avatar for Shiro to fight with. I like the idea of Shiro's Rider just being a more powerful, less humane version of whoever made it to the end, and him being convinced it was going to be Shinji. (You tease appearances of Shiro's avatar in the back third, as he looks into mirrors and sees Dark Femme as she's winning, or Dark Tiger as he's winning.) That way you've got Dark Ryuki versus Knight in the finale, and that works a lot better for me. Verde... so, here's where I'd make some big changes to the plot. I'd use Verde in place of Shiro/Odin for a lot of the story. He's a guy with limitless resources who really wants the Rider Battles to happen. He'd be the one juicing the story, getting involved when Shinji tries to shut things down. He'd be the one to give Asakura a Card Deck, maybe. He'd be a more direct thematic opposite to Shinji, like in the 13 Riders special. As Shinji is going around, trying to stop the fighting with emotional appeals to honor, to humanity, you'd have Verde on the other end of the battlefield making arguments for dominance, for greed. I'd probably have him taken out once the Second Secret Science Society hits the stage, and then you could do the Imperer story with the reveal that his dad was Verde. For Shiro, I'd mostly keep him as a silent observer, and I'd avoid having him interfere in the Rider Battles. But! I'd tweak Reiko's investigation in the middle to feature flashbacks of Scientist Shiro. This way, I think you could do a lot to humanize his goal, show the emotional weight of his desire to avert Yui's death, which would make the ending of the show resonate more. Also, it'd be a great way to more naturally impart exposition about the mechanics of Rider Battles, the wish at the end, whatever. All of those details could get dropped in as needed. Also also, it'd make Reiko's plot feel more informative, less redundant. It'd mean that she'd have info that'd be, if not more useful, then at least different than what the Riders knew. I have no idea how you could fit all that in an already-stuffed series. Maybe drop Atori, add Yui to Ore Journal? They feinted towards that early in the run. Could work. I don't usually try and think of this stuff, try and "fix" stories, so I hope that doesn't sound too dumb! Quote:
All in all, Ryuki is my favorite KR because it hit the perfect balance of comedic highs (low key it’s a supremely funny series), dramatic highs (so many memorable character arcs), and action highs (by far my favorite overall suit design, Rider line-up, and weapon gimmick. Fight scene choreography and music are also on point). For me, character overrides plot most of the time, except when the plot was so bad it actively derails character development—which didn’t really happen here. The flaws are mostly in structural and general world-building sense, and I can totally see how a viewer who’s more used to Heisei Phase II (only seen a few of those myself, but what’s immediately apparent to me is how it generally has more cogent world-building and plothole proofing compared to earlier Heisei ones) would be less tolerant to it. I myself would probably notice more of these in my next rewatch, but this thread also pointed out even more good things that I overlooked—so yeah, I’m pretty confident it’s still going to be my favorite KR after the rewatch.
The newer approach has some positives (tighter-ish series plots, more big changes after events) but also some negatives (whole arcs end up not working sometimes, plots can get a little too complex). It's a trade-off, for sure. Quote:
Looking forward to the next threads—I just finished Faiz last year (and currently almost done with Blade and Hibiki), so I may have plenty to chime in. Congrats again on finishing this project, and thank you for maintaining such a fun and thought-provoking content, especially in this extremely tough time.
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05-03-2020, 03:04 PM | #704 |
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I mean, boy, I would, it's very nice of you to link to it, but my plate is pretty full right this second. Work has become a 24/7 thing, I got personal life stuff I gotta catch up on (why does laundry always need to be done, why is it never actually done) and my Kamen Rider bandwidth is pretty well spoken for. I'll try, is kind-of the best I can say. It's not going to be real quick, honestly. But thanks!
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Problem was, assuming you still have the regular episode count to work with, there’s a lot that need to be cut to accommodate all that. The Tiger and Alternative parts can probably be shortened, but then would you cut the filler/comedic episodes/all the ORE Journal stuff? In any other series, I’d do it in a heartbeat, but not in Ryuki. Those parts are way too good.
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For Shiro and Verde, I'd like for Shiro to keep interfering in Rider Battles (partly so you wouldn't think Shiro is irrelevant in Rider Battles, to show he truly has complete control over every Rider/Mirror stuff) different from what you want.... but I mean he also could just use Verde as his enforcer right? Both sides are fulfilled. Shiro does use other Riders to do his dirty works too, not only Odin or Mirror Monsters. Like he supports Ouja, giving him tips and orders, to make him kill other Riders. Or Shinji for above. If he uses Ouja as killer machine, he could use Verde as what you've described above. Shiro could talk with Verde about like how great Rider War is, what you will get, and the potential of it failing, etc. to make Verde ensure the fight happens and persuade others.. Though I also think Verde's role to keep others fighting overlaps with Gai's? (and for sure, they are partners in 13 Riders) I know Verde has charisma and if he's successful, then other Riders would all be a clear-cut villain, which is what 13 Riders were about, so make Riders harder to convince? Also "and then you could do the Imperer story with the reveal that his dad was Verde." lol that would make sense that Sano's building is set in the same place as Takamizawa's. Company name's aren't the same though in 13 Riders it's Takamizawa Group, in series it's Sano Company. I don't know if Scientist Shiro (other groups of flashbacks too? this is another part of Mirror World story) would fit in Reiko's investigations as she doesn't know about that part (other than asking what he did), probably I'd like for Kagawa to do the exposition job (to his group, obviously not to others which he's secretive), as he knows the most about Shiro's sthick, with flashbacks along the way. |
05-03-2020, 03:59 PM | #705 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
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Well OK it's understandable to have a full plate, especially with the link being wall of texts, but I'm just judging from how you can read stuffs like wiki to gain more info (like Faiz above). But at least for Ryuki and OOO, use that link in place of wiki to know more. Honestly, I think every Ryuki and OOO fan should check that out.
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For Ryuga, somehow I'm thinking on the part where Shinji thinks about saving Yui (by killing other Riders). That's a completely vile action because it's exactly how other Riders are bad, and by that, I'd like for Ryuga to represent that part of him that potentially does dirty work for someone he cares, manifestation of his inner demon part, but I don't know the way to implement it. Besides, Episode Final made changes like Shinji and Yui being childhood friends (it's a change like in 13 Riders where Ren and Tezuka are best friends and both are Eri's boyfriends) for the sole purpose of creating Ryuga. Also Ryuga is still no match for Survive Riders (the final battle has Knight in Survive form obviously).
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For Shiro and Verde, I'd like for Shiro to keep interfering in Rider Battles (partly so you wouldn't think Shiro is irrelevant in Rider Battles, to show he truly has complete control over every Rider/Mirror stuff) different from what you want.... but I mean he also could just use Verde as his enforcer right? Both sides are fulfilled. Shiro does use other Riders to do his dirty works too, not only Odin or Mirror Monsters. Like he supports Ouja, giving him tips and orders, to make him kill other Riders. Or Shinji for above. If he uses Ouja as killer machine, he could use Verde as what you've described above. Shiro could talk with Verde about like how great Rider War is, what you will get, and the potential of it failing, etc. to make Verde ensure the fight happens and persuade others.. Though I also think Verde's role to keep others fighting overlaps with Gai's? (and for sure, they are partners in 13 Riders) I know Verde has charisma and if he's successful, then other Riders would all be a clear-cut villain, which is what 13 Riders were about, so make Riders harder to convince? Also "and then you could do the Imperer story with the reveal that his dad was Verde." lol that would make sense that Sano's building is set in the same place as Takamizawa's. Company name's aren't the same though in 13 Riders it's Takamizawa Group, in series it's Sano Company.
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I don't know if Scientist Shiro (other groups of flashbacks too? this is another part of Mirror World story) would fit in Reiko's investigations as she doesn't know about that part (other than asking what he did), probably I'd like for Kagawa to do the exposition job (to his group, obviously not to others which he's secretive), as he knows the most about Shiro's sthick, with flashbacks along the way.
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05-04-2020, 12:04 PM | #706 |
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For its DNA, there are a bunch of different things it seems to be referencing. Trading card games, for sure. Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were already huge hits in Japan by the time Ryuki aired, so the idea of two people fighting through monsters, it’s an easy way in to the show. Battle Royale was also a huge hit by this point, although (hopefully!) to an older audience than watched Kamen Rider. But you can see how the conflicts in that book/movie could sneak into this kids’ show, a broad mix of characters with singular motivations and all the reasons in the world to distrust one another. There’s also Highlander, with the prize at the end.
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OK, would like to see anyone's thoughts from that essay (ideally post it in that thread too to see). Quote:
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There's a bunch of Reiko's investigation we never see on the show. She goes to America for several episodes, and we only find out when she gets back! I'm thinking of something where Reiko tracks down more people who knew Shiro way back when (classmates, neighbors, whatever) and as she interviews them, we get flashbacks to pertinent information: Shiro talking about Mirror World with a college roommate, Shiro telling a girlfriend about how he wants to save his sister from some mysterious fate, a fellow scientist (like Kagawa) who helped him design the Card Decks, etc. Beyond the exposition, I think it would've been helpful to ground some of Shiro's motivation, show how he got to this point.
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05-04-2020, 04:37 PM | #707 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
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Would that make even less investment to Shiro, and thus other things about him, if it's done that way? (he's already the god of "Non-Action Big Bad"!). I was thinking about the scenario where both Verde and Shiro participates. Also if it's done that way, would you have the impression that Shiro can stop it if he wants? (instigator yeah, but I don't think instigator means they have every control of their thing).
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05-05-2020, 12:37 AM | #708 |
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This pic just arrived, wanna share it.
Won't you touch Rider Time Ryuki or something? (or separately from original Ryuki) Quote:
I feel like if you had a more active/sympathetic Shiro in flashbacks, you could play him as more unknowable in the present without impacting the ending for the worse. Moving the Shiro stuff to other parts of the series, away from interfering in the Rider Battles, I think you could have equal investment, if not greater.
C̶h̶a̶r̶a̶c̶t̶e̶r̶s̶ ̶s̶t̶i̶l̶l̶ ̶w̶o̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶a̶b̶l̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶d̶e̶a̶l̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶h̶i̶m̶ ̶a̶n̶y̶w̶a̶y̶.̶ Oh well, I misread your suggestion about just removing his interference to Rider War and adding nothing else, which IMO, would make him more akin into OOO's Ancient King, a past villain which is no longer involved in the present.... and (with it being "more unknowable", it can veer into "It's all This Will Be Important Later") would you think anything involving Shiro seem more irrelevant to seek this way? |
05-05-2020, 12:44 AM | #709 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
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Yeah, I'd basically make Present-Day Shiro a cameo appearance, a boogeyman, and have Flashback Shiro as a more slow-collapse villain-in-the-making. The end of the show kind-of portrays his actions as a tragedy, so I think getting to know him before he's an emotionally-distant Mirror Ghost could only help the storytelling.
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05-05-2020, 06:26 AM | #710 |
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Yeah, Rider Time: Ryuki was a Zi-O spinoff and even has Sougo and Geiz in it.
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