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02-05-2021, 06:46 PM | #41 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
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Oh, I liked him too, and I didn't like Amazons as a series at all, but I liked Jin, I got where he was coming from. I worry that after confessing this, you're going to go away with like, "Oh, dreamcastegirl is only into sociopaths," but I promise I do like wholesome characters too, lol.
Although, having said that, the only other character I really liked in Amazons was Iyu, so maybe I am actually broken inside. I watched Amazons pretty early in my Kamen Rider journey, so I probably would feel differently about it now. At the time, I liked the first season, was lukewarm on the second season, and hated the movie. But, Jin, though, man. Just a fascinating character and an addictively charismatic performance. I will never forget him telling Haruka that he's going to kill every Amazon, including Haruka, but if Haruka helps him out Jin will kill him last. And it's all done with this kind, mentor-y delivery. Like, Jin is sincere in his belief that this is actually a really generous offer he's making. Great, great performance.
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02-05-2021, 06:59 PM | #42 |
Yodonna oshi
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I only watched the show in its entirety last year. I'd had no interest in it, or in Shirakura's blatantly staged attempts to stir-up controversy and market the show as edgy, but, you know, lockdown. When I did watch it, I hated it, it felt like Ryuki with splatter. Yet, being as such, I think the show did a good job on revisiting the Asakura archetype through Jin and addressing the notion of such a person from a different perspective, and I really, really liked that aspect of that. I thought Mizusawa Reika was a really interesting character too, and I would have liked to have seen her relationships explored more, but I always knew that such would be a big ask from a show like this. As for the rest of it? It's embarrassing. Did Kobayashi get a 14-year-old boy to ghost write it for her? Honestly, there are fics I have read that quote verbatim entire Linkin Park albums that are comparative with Amazons. |
02-08-2021, 03:05 AM | #43 |
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Well, fair enough, if you give the same treatment to people like Shoichi as Shinji too, and you claiming to do the same for any of other Heisei Riders sans title. Probably at least, it's not a double standard for Shinji and others. Are you showa stan basing from strict Kamen Rider criteria? Though you brought up "Oh, dreamcastegirl is only into sociopaths" or about opinions of working or not, sorry, but like above, with my disdain for double standards, I'll fight against double standard treatment for characters or stories, like the mindset of thinking that "anything that isn't toxic is unrealistic", and toxic is the only way to make characters non-onedimensional, or that morally ambiguous can be very one-dimensional when the author only gives him/her toxicity and nothing else. And those who claim on something as bad because of it not being their type (people can express something not working on them without bashing it), where it can be their problem instead of the series' (like of course, those who think fantasy medias like KR are bad because it being fictional and unrelatable). Everyone has a right to express an opinion, but those opinions are open to criticism and debate.
What I'm explaining was everyman character archetype, and those aren't only restricted to "protagonist of a kid's show", everyman character type exists in non-kid (or rather, family friendly for KR series) medias, like Die Hard. Lol, Kanzaki has a "tatakae!" meme, that isn't clear enough of Kanzaki informing the participants? Where if they "tatakae" and win the fight, they'll gain the wish as a last Rider standing, and him choosing specifically morally ambiguous people at best because they'll have less restriction to kill. But of course nobody knows if Kanzaki himself also participates in Rider War using Odin as his representative, and he intends to win his own war (killing the 1 last other Rider with Odin) and take the wish by himself. Especially with Odin's immortality other than his overwhelming power, where he uses puppets, and if other Riders are lucky to kill Odin, then Kanzaki can just replace him with other puppets, fitting a Phoenix theme. Kanzaki asks for 12 other Riders in fight because he needs to collect those 12 Rider souls to grant 1 wish. The other Riders are just pawns for his own needs. Well, so you don't follow medias like Ex-Aid too (I would still want for anyone not to be just purely ignorant for informations that are given to them about something that they don't follow - like it can be an introduction) - though because of not knowing that I've given a big spoiler for Ex-Aid! I'd like to know what media have you followed before continuing the discussion about pragmatic villainy, because really many stories can make villains not doing something horrible not out of kindness but out of their best interests, and I can't commend those acts. I haven't watched Amazons yet, but from what I read, it seems that Jin is similar to Gou/Mach from Drive, with both having unconditional hate for only the monsters species of their respective series and kill any single one of them, but not at all for humans (Gou will kill those who work for Roidmudes though).
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02-08-2021, 03:21 AM | #44 |
Yodonna oshi
Join Date: Jan 2021
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I'll fight against double standard treatment for characters or stories, like the mindset of thinking that "anything that isn't toxic is unrealistic", and toxic is the only way to make characters non-onedimensional, or that morally ambiguous can be very one-dimensional when the author gives him/her a personality consisting of toxicity and nothing else.
I am aware of the concept of a "everyman" protagonist in literature, I simply don't care for it within the context of this story. Also, I'm not sure where you got this opinion about my only liking "toxic" characters, literally we were just talking about how one of the main reasons I disliked Ryuki was that there are no Kamen Riders in a traditional sense in it. I'm sorry you seem upset that I don't like Ryuki, and that I don't like Shinji as a protagonist, but this is not going to change this simply because it makes you unhappy. Last edited by dreamcastegirl; 02-08-2021 at 06:33 AM.. |
02-08-2021, 04:30 AM | #45 |
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Shinji's biggest dilemma is choosing between saving the civilians and Riders, and also denying the Rider's wishes if it's done which is stopping the war, so by that he actually knows about being wrong? Also, what benefits will be gain from the other's beliefs?
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They're all only self-serving, where Ren boasts about his cynicism to get only what he wants (killing to win the war, and he only prioritizing his loved one's wellbeing, which also gets him in a dilemma), Kitaoka is about hedonism; to only do anything that satisfies yourself,
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Shibaura is about treating life as a game, Tezuka is similar to Shinji's, about doing the right thing even if it won't benefit you otherwise (coming from Yuichi who wouldn't fight even if he can restore his fingers) and also run by fate,
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and that's the one which inspired Shinji's (and Tezuka's run of it has similar outcome to Shinji's) to try changing the Rider by person, Sano is the happiness is money belief and that people can be bought, etc.
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His idiocy and naivete did cause a harm at first (Scissors part), but he does mature later, contrast when he finds it suspicious when Tiger works at .
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If you bring up the Imperer arc to argue for this, then, it's Inoue screwing up his writing at that part by ignoring his development there.
Obviously, there are always different readings about characters, but this threat honestly just strengthened my belief in my interpretation.
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02-08-2021, 06:18 AM | #46 |
Some guy. I'm alright.
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I'm not really sure where you're getting the idea that Shinji never has doubts, a crisis of his own beliefs, or ever considers the feelings of others? The Christmas episode was all about that. He's actually about to give up on everything he's strived for, and even outright thinks he might be the crazy one in all of this until he sees how much his efforts have had an effect on the other Riders, ontop of Ren slapping some sense into him. Heck, there's also the scene where he briefly considers letting Asakura die in the car fire in another episode. There's also his interactions with both Ren, Kitaoka, and Tezuka to consider, where he very much shows concern over their well being, despite their differing ideologies. To me, it shows that Shinji does his best to bridge the gap with others, despite how different they might be to him.
Like, I'm not trying to say you can't dislike Shinji or anything like that, but to me it seems like you're making him out to be some sort of grandstanding sociopath when that's really not the case.
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02-08-2021, 06:40 AM | #47 |
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That was not my intention. He's far from a sociopath, just a stubborn idiot.
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02-08-2021, 07:33 AM | #48 |
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Deadbringer, I'm not sure if I'm reading your post right, but it comes across as you being upset with me for not liking the shows you like, in which case, uh, I'm sorry? Calling me ignorant isn't going to make me warm to your opinions though, in fact though I agree that everyone has a right to opinion, and there is a right to reply to those opinions, if you feel I'm "ignorant" just because I'm not following a reference you made in passing to another show, I feel like I'm within my rights to disregard your opinion because not only does this come across as rude, but you are also not explaining your point, and then acting upset when I don't share the same points of reference as you. I'm not going to go away and watch Ex-Aid or read Marvel comics just to have a conversation with you about Ryuki.
Well nah, just to explain, I'm not being upset over that, if I'm actually upset here, it's about a villain's evilness being downplayed, as this is something that can lead into baddies getting away scot free. Actually I acknowledged it more that you said you just dislike the archetype, and that actually you think of the same as the other Riders like Shouichi, not only Shinji. I like Asakura too for him doing outlandish things that make him resemble a monster, and his trickery to gain upper hand using surprising cunning side, but I ought for anyone not to downplay those characters' evilness (including those sympathising with them). Also of course I won't ask you to go away and watch or read those medias for this conversation, but to take into account for the examples I gave even if its a media that you don't follow, me too if I wanna know an example of media trope I often found those that comes from a media I don't follow, either in Internet writings or info from others, but I would still use it and see a resemblance in it to a media I already follow. I had wrong/too harsh word choice for "ignorant" to address about that, sorry, I'd like to know a way to address this in less rough way. And I didn't specifically refer to you for being ignorant, it's for other people on internet I've met who holds these views, I mean, I talked about something like people in other places declaring any fantasy media as bad just because of them being fictional, or those that declare a media for being bad because of it not having action (yeah probably action is their flick, but doesn't mean any medias without those are bad). Anyone have rights to like or dislike something, but here I'm talking about the reasons of why they like or dislike. This part is also directed for the opinion talk, rather than Ryuki, and I'm not any pissed about that, just want to talk about this for a reminder, as I've met other people who treats their right to express an opinion where it means “Nobody can disagree with me.” Quote:
I am aware of the concept of a "everyman" protagonist in literature, I simply don't care for it within the context of this story. Also, I'm not sure where you got this opinion about my only liking "toxic" characters, literally we were just talking about how one of the main reasons I disliked Ryuki was that there are no Kamen Riders in a traditional sense in it.
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Oh, I liked him too, and I didn't like Amazons as a series at all, but I liked Jin, I got where he was coming from. I worry that after confessing this, you're going to go away with like, "Oh, dreamcastegirl is only into sociopaths," but I promise I do like wholesome characters too, lol.
Although, having said that, the only other character I really liked in Amazons was Iyu, so maybe I am actually broken inside.
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02-08-2021, 08:03 AM | #49 |
Yodonna oshi
Join Date: Jan 2021
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c/w: real world Nazis, discussion of abuse
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I'm interested in the possibility of Asakura making a choice to save one life, not because I think this excuses anything else he has done throughout the story, but because I think it demonstrates the lack of absolutes in the narrative. I spoke earlier about how I liked the villains of the Showa shows as they had actively chosen evil. A lot of my personal feelings about these characters are tied up with the fact that the roots of Shocker are canonically explained to be comprised of escaped Nazi war criminals. Without discussing my personal history too much, I come from a background where little details such as this evoke a lot of feeling even in the sense that we are discussing a fictional universe—I don't know if you have seen the Ghost film, Kamen Rider 1, but I find the depiction of Ambassador Hell in this to be really difficult, but also really fascinating because here is a man who acts a stand-in for real Nazis making a choice that might well have also benefited him but came also from a place he considered to be right. I think that we, as a species, are at our most terrifying when we believe we are in the right. I guess what I'm trying to say here is that whilst this is children's media, there are things we can learn about evil characters that we can contrast with our understanding of the world, and I think that's a good thing, I think to constantly question of our beliefs, to constantly ask ourselves if we are on the right path is a good thing, and that's why I'm in favour of the way in which Asakura is depicted. In regards to Iyu, I... well, I think she is tragic. Iyu comes across to me as the survivor of systematic abuse, and her role in the story of Amazons breaks my heart. I found the second season genuinely troubling to watch, and I wish that instead of going all in with grim-and-gritty adolescent shock value, the show had properly explored what it is to survive, what it is to be incapable of mending. I hope this made sense, sorry for broaching some difficult topics in this post. |
02-11-2021, 01:23 PM | #50 |
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Because a battle of ideas, desires and the like is build and won by understanding. People won't spring on onto the same argument. If you don't understand the ideology of your opponent your chances of confining them are slim at best. And, maybe, you could find a flaw in your own set of beliefs. Shinji doesn't do that. He never thinks about how others may feel, never considers their side, that's why he always loses. That's why the war ends in a stalemate. That's why everyone will be eaten by Mirror Monsters. That's why Ren has to clean up his mess because Shinji failed!
"Uunderstanding other Riders" doesn't and shouldn't automatically means that you must agree with them and let them have their way. If their way is morally wrong, then they should be stopped, or should try help them find an alternative solution to their problem if there's any (But in Rider War there is literally no way to win. There are no single good choices for any of the cast. I mean consider the other cast too for dealing with it other than Shinji. The game is rigged for other Riders who wants to win in Odin, Kagawa's plan will be countered by Time Vent, and the Riders can be killed by eaten by contract monsters for thoughts about stopping the war or taking their Deck away). Humans generally have desires, including baddies who harms others in pursuit of their desire, which is morally wrong, and any of Rider's wish can quality; it would be equivalent of serial killing to achieve their desires, as you need the other Riders to die for your wish to be granted. And if Shinji just go along with the flow and fight without worrying about casualties, then some people will still die (i.e. Riders who lose the fight). Pin the blame on Shiro Kanzaki, who makes every Riders morally justify their mutual fighting and killing, therefore promote killing and death. The point of Ryuki is perhaps, how horrifying war is, like how it puts innocent people in danger, how good people can get involved in the war and die. And the ending is Kanzaki letting go of the war, as he's also no exception to the cycle of suffering the war creates. Shinji also actually beats a lot of people (Ren, Asakura, etc.). What he doesn’t do is kill other Riders. Quote:
No, Kitaoka is about survival, fear, and hopelessness. Shinji never understands him, why he fights or why he thinks he can't leave. He only ever tries platitudes which obviously don't work. Shinji only deals in platitudes, never developing past them. It's a hollow conviction with no ground to stand on.
But that also means his development appeals to Shinji's plead, where by letting go of immortal wish, he's no longer willing to fight in the Rider War, only doing so to stop Asakura and atone himself. He expresses his quitting more openly to Goro but did talk to Ren about Shinji being actually a good influence to them. And this is what Shinji thinks about his wish, clearly sending him to a dliemma again, so not understanding him is wrong: Quote:
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Honestly, disagree. Inoue understood Shinji right from the get-go, or else he wouldn't have introduced Sanako Kanzaki, the most similar person to Shinji in the cast. And like Shinji, she ends up being wrong pretty much all of the time. All of Shinji's worst traits are personified in her, she is stubborn, judgmental and never deviates from her first opinion, hell, it's even her catchphrase. Inoue saw right past Kobayashi and pointed out what was wrong with Shinji and he was dead on the money in my opinion.
Like he seems to always be working off Kitaoka’s very first appearance. For example, while Kobayashi handled his most dickish moment (when he tricked Shinji into thinking he’d killed Goro), Inoue writes him with more casual dickery, like in ep. 29-30. In his writing it’s a guarantee that Kitaoka will strike out to Reiko, where Kobayashi has Kitaoka still showing respect to her when he’s been shot down. Ren and Reiko are more of a hardasses who is hard to believe they actually care about other people, and had to be incredibly stupid for the plot to work; Ren trolls more, acts more as angry jerk, and like in Episode Final: When he sees Ryuga and mistakes him for Shinji, Ren doesn’t question why Shinji is acting out-of-character; he immediately starts suspecting him. He shows no concern over Shinji at all and completely fails to act when he sees Ryuga overtaking him. Same guy who in Inoue episode too wouldn’t once believe that Shinji kidnapped his coworker and so spent money he didn’t have to hire Kitaoka to defend him. There's also inconsistency between ep. 14 and 15 where Ren’s attitude goes from settled and accepting of the changes happening in his life (having exposed Kitaoka to help Shinji and stopped fighting against the Atori group becoming more like a family) to moody and depressed and picking on Shinji. Believable, but may be too massive step backwards in development the very next day. Reiko is being OOC that she starts yelling and raging unlike her cool, professional way. Reiko in Asakura's brother episode is hit with the same case as Ren on Episode Final. And Okubo is a character who while at first glance is silly and turns out to be surprisingly serious and good at his job, has amazing insight into why the characters are doing what they do, like picking up that Shinji isn't surprised in Shimada's photo shown at ORE, but in Inoue's writing Okubo is reduced to be just another nutcase, losing all pretense of being the boss.
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