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10-24-2020, 12:04 AM | #371 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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Quote:
Alright, I've been waiting for a while to pop and say this, but there goes.
A lot of people, including Die it seems, really did like this first part of the show, but we already know it would change after this. But some of the people who worked on this first part of Hibiki got a second chance and later made another show called Daimajin Kanon. If you liked Hibiki so far, you should check it out. Both shows share many of the same themes and ideas: an emphasis on music, a young person at a critical part of their emotional development gaining a mentor who is a secret warror that protects humans from monsters, an emphasis on personality and drama over action, etc. Unlike Hibiki there is was no interference from the higher ups. The show got to run its course and finish as intended. No pressure to conform to the expectations of a long running franchise. No being forced to distract from the stories just you can have the customary fighting scenes. IMO it's all of the best parts of Hibiki without most of its flaws. Anyhow, my shameless plug is done. Please return to your regularly schedule discussion. As much as there are parts of this show that I think don't work (the lethargic pace of the monster plots, the lack of a compelling central villain, a formlessness to the stakes), I do wish that the original creative team had been allowed to finish their version of Hibiki. Regardless of what the next team comes up with... yeah, a bummer that the original intention won't be fully known.
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10-24-2020, 01:20 AM | #372 |
take me to space
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 1,406
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I do wonder, had this show been the way it was, but the toys were all cool transforming and beeping devices like the ones in Faiz, maybe everything would have turned out okay for the production team after all? Not that it matters, with the unique direction and story choices that purposefully treat the superhero action as mundane as possibly, mixed with the so-and-so merchandise, I wasn't surprised at all to hear that the show didn't exactly sell well nor did it appeal to the average Rider fan. It's great to see you receiving the show well, though I totally get how it must have been somewhat surreal and even disappointing at parts in how it disregards the typical tokusatsu tropes that is expected.
However, barring all that, it's a real shame that Hibiki wasn't allowed to keep hitting it's own beat. I'd be saying that even if I didn't like the show, since I think it's always great when ambitious or creative visions take precedence over being easy to sell. That just doesn't or can't happen in this franchise anymore. ...Well, I mean, it couldn't happen to too far a degree back in 2005 either since yeah, everyone got fired for this show, but still. But, oh well. Even if I wish for more variety in style and stories in Kamen Rider, I still stick with it because clearly this formula they have and will continue milking for decades is something that appeals to me. Have fun with the movie! I hope you specifically watch the Director's Cut which has a slightly longer runtime because it has a few extra scenes here and there. Last edited by FreshToku; 10-24-2020 at 01:39 AM.. |
10-24-2020, 01:45 AM | #373 |
I have a problematic type
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,410
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I can see where you're coming from, Die. I don't have the same take on the show, but I get it. I love that they went for something different here and I actually quite like the action scenes. The giant CGI monster fights are very much limited by 2005 kid's TV show budget CGI, but I still think we get some good action scenes. Of course, at the end of the day I'm here for Hibiki and Asumu's relationship and the warm feelings of being with this cast of characters that I love. I'm fine with the show not having as much focus on the monster fighting because goddamn is this some good steakhouse chicken.
I think one of the biggest tragedies about what happened with Hibiki is that it brought the really experimental part of the early Heisei era to an end. Kabuto is a much more conventional Rider show and after that we got Den-O, which was such a big hit that almost every show that came after it would copy a lot of its elements. We wouldn't get a show that really tried anything radically different again until Gaim. I love so many of the shows that came after this, but I can't help but wonder how things might have been different if Toei were still more willing to experiment with the show. And I'm glad catwhowalks brought up Daimajin Kanon. It's very much the spiritual sequel to Hibiki and is absolutely delightful in many of the same ways. You also get a lot of catharsis from it, as the core plot is about a young woman who's dealing with depression after a deeply personal creative work gets stolen from her and crassly commercialized. I'll also join FreshToku in hoping you enjoy the movie. I think it's one of the more fun movies from this era, even if its inspirations are kind of obvious. Last edited by Switchblade; 10-24-2020 at 10:43 AM.. |
10-24-2020, 02:30 AM | #374 |
Ex-Weather Three leader
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,508
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In case this was not further explained, here I go. Onis of Takeshi primarily tend to have names where their oni name and real name's first syllables are all the same. For example:
Hibiki > Hitoshi Hidaka Ibuki > Iori Izumi Todoriki > Tomizo Todayama Zanki > Zaomaru Zaitsuhara Also, Danki > Daisuke Danda Another fun fact, Hibiki's suit actor and primary "nigo rider" actor during the first batch of Heisei rider shows, has retired some time ago and is now a judo therapist. Last edited by Sunred; 10-24-2020 at 02:35 AM.. |
10-24-2020, 05:45 AM | #375 |
Showa Girl
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 9,064
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Well. I mean.
I get where you're coming from and in the wider picture I get and agree with your overall point (we're never getting something like Kuuga again), but 'conventional' is perhaps the last word I'd use to describe Kabuto I'm glad you enjoyed it Die, and it's definitely interesting to see your perspective on this. I guess if I was to take your metaphor and say why I like it despite that... maybe it would have been better to go for a Chicken place to begin with, but often I'm not too fond of Chicken places; and the atmosphere and trappings of a steak house are not just what allured me to this one to begin with but also make it a lot more unique. Though it also definitely helps that I like the steak here a fair bit more than you! I haven't been talking much due to a lot of things happening otherwise and my laptop only coming in this week; and it takes a while for me to get my thoughts down. So maybe expect some Hibiki 1-29 posts on the 30-47 portion, weirdly enough? I promise that's not out of spite of that second half! Promise! Though I'll definitely have some things to say about at least 30 and 47 themselves. All in all the first half of Hibiki is an experience that I think is super understated in Rider whether it's something one likes or not -- you won't find anything else like it, even moreso than W or Kuuga; and it's a good watch for any Rider fan. Here's hoping you'll join Andro in the ranks of one of the few people who likes the next batch!
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10-24-2020, 08:44 AM | #376 |
The Immortal King Tasty
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Every diner you've ever been to.
Posts: 3,833
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I guess if I was to take your metaphor and say why I like it despite that... maybe it would have been better to go for a Chicken place to begin with, but often I'm not too fond of Chicken places; and the atmosphere and trappings of a steak house are not just what allured me to this one to begin with but also make it a lot more unique. Though it also definitely helps that I like the steak here a fair bit more than you!
Except, uh, in this case, the kids think this particular steak is boring and bland... ...and they'd rather go watch Magiranger instead. Okay I'm maybe not good with metaphors, but my point is that I will always appreciate a show like Hibiki that's clearly trying to be this well-rounded work that holds value to a wide range of people. Dropping the figurative speech for a bit, I've always been obsessed with "steak", and a big part of that is how flexible I feel stories with superheroes or otherwise colorful characters can be. I love seeing them dip their toes into all kinds of genres and using those larger than life elements to complement the narrative in a way less fantastic stories simply aren't capable of. A tale about a teacher questioning the worth of his job carries a lot more impact when the worth turns out to be the hero saving the city from monsters on a weekly basis, yeah? And, uh, as you can maybe tell from the fact the example I just pulled was from Kuuga, I'm honestly not the best person to stick up for Hibiki. Sometimes there are shows I respect a lot more than I like, and Hibiki is exactly that. Mind you, I'm judging that within the standard of how much I already like Kamen Rider; I absolutely like this show a whole lot! And I certainly have my attachment to it. But while rewatching it was loads of fun, and I think I do have a deeper appreciation for what it was doing now than I used to, there's a simple truth about my feelings towards the show I kept coming back to: Hibiki just doesn't resonate with me all that much. ...admittedly I might've only been thinking that so often because it makes for a good pun in Japanese. (心に響かないという) But, I don't know, there's like this invisible barrier between me and the show or something. Despite everything, it doesn't stick with me the same way so many other Rider shows do. I have a few theories as to why. The big glaring one is that, as I've mentioned in a few places, finales are keys to me (just look at Blade!), and Hibiki didn't get to have one of those the way it wanted to. For all I know, the best was yet to come, and the "true" version of this show would've been special to me the same way something like Kuuga or Ghost is. But obviously we'll never quite know, and, yeah, it's both a huge shame and also not hard to see why things went the way they did. I've actually probably got one of the more generous outlooks on the next era of this series (maybe?), though, and while I don't like to say these things upfront, I think there's a more than good chance you won't feel the need to retire the phrase "Inoue forever" when all is said and done. So despite all this doom and gloom, I don't think it's exactly all downhill from here. That being said, I'll also join in the crowd recommending Daimajin Kanon whenever you have time like half a decade from now. Or just to anyone who liked Hibiki, for that matter. It's a show I only watched recently that I maybe like way less than Hibiki and respect maybe a bit more, but there's such an absurd amount of talent from Takatera's other shows there it might as well be that back half we didn't get. Sahashi still does all the music, some of the directors are the same (no Ishida though), Ooishi and Arakawa were the writers, Makoto Itou was even one of the suit actors... it's a very sincere show with a lot to recommend, and it deserves enough attention I'm just going to leave the opening right here, since it describes the series better than I ever could.
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10-24-2020, 08:48 AM | #377 |
Some guy. I'm alright.
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Michigan
Posts: 4,395
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I don't feel like I can really add anything to this outside of what anyone else said, so I'll just go ahead and say that the first half of Hibiki really highlights something that makes Phase 1 Heisei my favorite era of Kamen Rider overall: The willingness to experiment and the drive to make (almost) every show really unique. Granted, I'm only halfway through Showa and like a third through Phase 2 Heisei, but it seems like that era more than the others tried the hardest to have every season stand out from the rest, and it's a shame that the series would lose that once the era closed.
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10-24-2020, 10:47 AM | #378 |
I have a problematic type
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,410
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Fair point, but I still feel like it’s tonally a lot closer to shows like Blade or Ryuki than Hibiki ever was (not counting the retool, of course, because I never would).
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10-24-2020, 12:15 PM | #379 |
Kamen Ride Or Die
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,159
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You guys! Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts on the first phase of Hibiki! (Or, for Switchblade's benefit, the true phase of Hibiki.) Someday I'm going to figure out how to actually be awake when these posts are coming in (what if people who wanted to talk about Hibiki lived in my country or slept at night), but in the meantime, let me have this pleasant afternoon of responding to a page of Hibiki thoughts. It's a fitting tribute to this exiting era!
Quote:
I do wonder, had this show been the way it was, but the toys were all cool transforming and beeping devices like the ones in Faiz, maybe everything would have turned out okay for the production team after all? Not that it matters, with the unique direction and story choices that purposefully treat the superhero action as mundane as possibly, mixed with the so-and-so merchandise, I wasn't surprised at all to hear that the show didn't exactly sell well nor did it appeal to the average Rider fan. It's great to see you receiving the show well, though I totally get how it must have been somewhat surreal and even disappointing at parts in how it disregards the typical tokusatsu tropes that is expected.
Quote:
However, barring all that, it's a real shame that Hibiki wasn't allowed to keep hitting it's own beat. I'd be saying that even if I didn't like the show, since I think it's always great when ambitious or creative visions take precedence over being easy to sell. That just doesn't or can't happen in this franchise anymore. ...Well, I mean, it couldn't happen to too far a degree back in 2005 either since yeah, everyone got fired for this show, but still.
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I can see where you're coming from, Die. I don't have the same take on the show, but I get it. I love that they went for something different here and I actually quite like the action scenes. The giant CGI monster fights are very much limited by 2005 kid's TV show budget CGI, but I still think we get some good action scenes. Of course, at the end of the day I'm here for Hibiki and Asumu's relationship and the warm feelings of being with this cast of characters that I love. I'm fine with the show not having as much focus on the monster fighting because goddamn is this some good steakhouse chicken.
It's more that the fights and action feel so impersonal, so characterless. One of my early-Heisei complaints, coming out of Phase 2, was that there's no chatter with the villains, that they're all growling monsters. Hibiki takes that and says But What If They Were Also Gigantic And Had No Personality. Like, there're the Douji and Hime, but we're usually lucky to get one scene with both of them before they get partially or completely detonated. For me, I need to feel like a Kamen Rider is fighting someone, not just fighting. I didn't really get that out of Hibiki's action scenes. Quote:
I think one of the biggest tragedies about what happened with Hibiki is that it brought the really experimental part of the early Heisei era to an end. Kabuto is a much more conventional Rider show and after that we got Den-O, which was such a big hit that almost every show that came after it would copy a lot of its elements. We wouldn't get a show that really tried anything radically different again until Gaim. I love so many of the shows that came after this, but I can't help but wonder how things might have been different if Toei were still more willing to experiment with the show.
Quote:
And I'm glad catwhowalks brought up Daimajin Kanon. It's very much the spiritual sequel to Hibiki and is absolutely delightful in many of the same ways. You also get a lot of catharsis from it, as the core plot is about a young woman who's dealing with depression after a deeply personal creative work gets stolen from her and crassly commercialized.
Quote:
Quote:
In case this was not further explained, here I go. Onis of Takeshi primarily tend to have names where their oni name and real name's first syllables are all the same. For example:
Hibiki > Hitoshi Hidaka Ibuki > Iori Izumi Todoriki > Tomizo Todayama Zanki > Zaomaru Zaitsuhara Also, Danki > Daisuke Danda Another fun fact, Hibiki's suit actor and primary "nigo rider" actor during the first batch of Heisei rider shows, has retired some time ago and is now a judo therapist. Quote:
I'm glad you enjoyed it Die, and it's definitely interesting to see your perspective on this. I guess if I was to take your metaphor and say why I like it despite that... maybe it would have been better to go for a Chicken place to begin with, but often I'm not too fond of Chicken places; and the atmosphere and trappings of a steak house are not just what allured me to this one to begin with but also make it a lot more unique. Though it also definitely helps that I like the steak here a fair bit more than you!
Quote:
I haven't been talking much due to a lot of things happening otherwise and my laptop only coming in this week; and it takes a while for me to get my thoughts down. So maybe expect some Hibiki 1-29 posts on the 30-47 portion, weirdly enough? I promise that's not out of spite of that second half! Promise! Though I'll definitely have some things to say about at least 30 and 47 themselves.
Quote:
All in all the first half of Hibiki is an experience that I think is super understated in Rider whether it's something one likes or not -- you won't find anything else like it, even moreso than W or Kuuga; and it's a good watch for any Rider fan. Here's hoping you'll join Andro in the ranks of one of the few people who likes the next batch!
...right? Quote:
Okay I'm maybe not good with metaphors, but my point is that I will always appreciate a show like Hibiki that's clearly trying to be this well-rounded work that holds value to a wide range of people. Dropping the figurative speech for a bit, I've always been obsessed with "steak", and a big part of that is how flexible I feel stories with superheroes or otherwise colorful characters can be. I love seeing them dip their toes into all kinds of genres and using those larger than life elements to complement the narrative in a way less fantastic stories simply aren't capable of. A tale about a teacher questioning the worth of his job carries a lot more impact when the worth turns out to be the hero saving the city from monsters on a weekly basis, yeah?
And, uh, as you can maybe tell from the fact the example I just pulled was from Kuuga, I'm honestly not the best person to stick up for Hibiki. Sometimes there are shows I respect a lot more than I like, and Hibiki is exactly that. Mind you, I'm judging that within the standard of how much I already like Kamen Rider; I absolutely like this show a whole lot! And I certainly have my attachment to it. But while rewatching it was loads of fun, and I think I do have a deeper appreciation for what it was doing now than I used to, there's a simple truth about my feelings towards the show I kept coming back to: Hibiki just doesn't resonate with me all that much. ...admittedly I might've only been thinking that so often because it makes for a good pun in Japanese. (心に響かないという) But, I don't know, there's like this invisible barrier between me and the show or something. Despite everything, it doesn't stick with me the same way so many other Rider shows do. I have a few theories as to why. The big glaring one is that, as I've mentioned in a few places, finales are keys to me (just look at Blade!), and Hibiki didn't get to have one of those the way it wanted to. For all I know, the best was yet to come, and the "true" version of this show would've been special to me the same way something like Kuuga or Ghost is. But obviously we'll never quite know, and, yeah, it's both a huge shame and also not hard to see why things went the way they did. I've actually probably got one of the more generous outlooks on the next era of this series (maybe?), though, and while I don't like to say these things upfront, I think there's a more than good chance you won't feel the need to retire the phrase "Inoue forever" when all is said and done. So despite all this doom and gloom, I don't think it's exactly all downhill from here. Without Asumu being an early-20s Oni trainee, and without Hibiki being his official mentor, it doesn't leave the show a lot of ways to express an episode's themes in more dynamic, sci-fi superhero ways. It largely just creates two separate piles: Story and Action. It'll rhyme them, a bit, but it's always clear that the Story is happening to and with people, while the action is happening to and with monsters and Oni. Like, I don't want to tell anyone how to fix a show that went off the air over a decade before I started watching Kamen Rider, but: Zanki and Todoroki. That's the maybe more successful, more superhero-y version of Asumu and Hibiki. That's where you can tell metaphorical stories about the difficulties of growing up, of being a good parent, but doing it within the framework of a Kamen Rider show. Is it as special or unique as the Asumu/Hibiki stuff? Definitely not. Would it've been more fun to watch? Possibly! Quote:
I don't feel like I can really add anything to this outside of what anyone else said, so I'll just go ahead and say that the first half of Hibiki really highlights something that makes Phase 1 Heisei my favorite era of Kamen Rider overall: The willingness to experiment and the drive to make (almost) every show really unique. Granted, I'm only halfway through Showa and like a third through Phase 2 Heisei, but it seems like that era more than the others tried the hardest to have every season stand out from the rest, and it's a shame that the series would lose that once the era closed.
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10-24-2020, 02:19 PM | #380 |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 1,290
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KAMEN RIDER HIBIKI VOLUME 28 - “UNENDING MALICE”
KAMEN RIDER HIBIKI VOLUME 29 - “SHINING BOY” It’s to talk about Asumu, and to talk about Hibiki, and to talk about their relationship, and to talk about how to live a good life. Asumu’s in a rough place, as communicated through some flashbacks. The shoplifter from months ago came back and beat the shit out of him, bruising his face and crushing his spirit. It’s a huge regression for Asumu, with him moping and withdrawn. He keeps seeing his weakness, keeps reliving his shame. He feels worthless, a failure, a burden. Hibiki’s lost one of his drumsticks, and needs to go out and carve another one. He invites Asumu along for some bonding. As much as Asumu admires Hibiki, and wants to impress him, Hibiki’s the one person who can get Asumu to feel comfortable enough to be vulnerable. (As Hibiki himself says, he is a ray of sunshine.) Hibiki is so proud of the man Asumu is becoming, and he’s eager to help him become stronger. But their relationship isn’t about training, about physical strength. It’s about perseverance, about knowing what you want in life, and about feeling free to go for it. Hibiki wants Asumu to think of the things that have befallen him, the indignities and punishments, as something to overcome, not something to own. Bad things can happen to you, but they don’t happen because of you. Asumu can feel hurt about what happened to him, but he shouldn’t feel ashamed. Hibiki’s had setbacks, like his broken drumstick, but he’s worked hard to put the pieces back together. He didn’t give in to anger and self-doubt, and neither should Asumu. Quote:
Because that message, about getting back up and trying again, it’s what the whole series is about. We know it is because two different characters give more-or-less the same speech on perseverance. Hibiki gives one to Asumu, letting him know that there will be times that you’ll get knocked down, and you need to figure out how not to get knocked down again. And AsuMum gives the other, where she talks about how integral it is to push through adversity if you’re ever going to be an adult.
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Of the two, I think I like AsuMum’s better? Hibiki’s is cool and comforting, but AsuMum’s has the stress of being a parent in it. This feeling of wanting the best for your children, but knowing they’re going to suffer at least a little in life. And her, as a mother, she’s destined to always be held at a little bit of a distance from Asumu’s troubles. There’s a really nice beat where she mentions that she can’t really talk to a teenage boy in a way that he’ll listen to, and how she’s made her peace with that, but it stresses her out sometimes. It’s so honest of a moment, her confessing to these near-strangers that she fears for her son and hopes that he’ll get through this.
And Asumu does, because he’s surrounded by people who care for him. The monsters are eventually defeated (great fights, don’t really want to talk about it the way I want to talk about Asumu and Hibiki) and everyone meets back up at the restaurant. And when I say everyone, I mean everyone: AsuMum and Midori and Ichiro and Hitomi and Kasumi and Hinaka and Asumu and Hibiki and Akira and Ibuki and Zanki and Todoroki. The full cast, celebrating their victory and enjoying each other’s company. Asumu is happy again, confident in his ability to weather adversity. Quote:
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I think a lot of depends on the age of the character. If it's someone over 18, then I don't think they should have that much deference to their parents' wishes. They're adults, and they (should hopefully) have the skills and awareness to decide for themselves what kind of life they want to lead.
On the other hand, if I'm the parent to a 15-year old who wants to train to fight spiders the size of houses? You are goddamn right I'm yanking them out of that program. Tsutomu's parents are 100% in the right on this one. Takeshi is... I don't know if they should be allowed to have high school-aged apprentices! That seems astonishingly dangerous and legally actionable!
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