Kamen Rider Zeztz Case #9- "Poison" Discussion
 

Baku must face the Poison Nightmare and uncover Chef Sannoh's desire.

We now return to our regularly scheduled protagonist dying of poison plot. Minami and Nem are desperate to bring him back, but Nem puts her all into shooting some healing into Zeztz...and even if it leaves her injured, it actually saves Baku! And Nox is actually happy about this!? Or at least proof that the Espirim Capsem worked.

How long did Minami have to work with the medical staff to coordinate the timing on that "Baku can't leave the hospital" bit?

Baku you only have amateur parkour skills in the real world.

What we have hear is a failure to communicate between Sannoh and his Sous Chefs and what his true intentions are.

I love how Fujimi is the type to check in on his buds to make sure they're okay. Also there is no window he will not slip into.

The sad truth about Fujimi and Nasuka's job is that they can't prove any of what they do and the very fact of solving these cases means erasing any evidence of them happening.

Nasuka's ringtone is heavy metal? Nice.

Actual scenes of Baku riding his bike! He even rode it with Nem! I don't remember the last time we had someone else on the bike, let alone the Heroine!

I love how the Healing Forms' weapon is a big axe that would make Kintaros proud. I also like how it can use the recovery gimmick to basically restore things that were destroyed even during battle, like the ground to cover up the Virus Nightmare.

Nox brought out the merchandisable weapon! And even without being able to transform, Nox is clearly way above Zeztz' current level, and even damaged his weapon was enough to overpower him.

Does every Zeztz form have a Rider Kick? We just need the 4th to complete the set. And a Rider Kick that injects healing into its target.

I guess they'll just write off the poison reaction as them just REALLY loving the food.

Oh, I'd say Kensei Odakka is involved in Black Cases...he's frikkin' Nox!

Nox stole a Capsem! They even blacked it out in the next episode preview! Baku literally just got it! But what could he use it for in the real world? I thought he just wanted to repair his sword, but this seems wayyyy more personal. Nem's body? But he's using her...

I wish I had more to say about this one that was nice? I've sort of noticed in quite a few comments I've seen people make on Zeztz how it often seems like the reasons behind certain things it does have a way of escaping people's understanding, and I think it's my turn to feel that same lack of clarity?

I just kind of didn't get the story here, beyond the broadest strokes? That's obviously intentional in the case of something like Nox's whole deal with the Recovery Capsem, to be fair, which is in the future tense by nature, as something to make the viewer curious about where things are heading. But I ended up scratching my head almost the exact same way trying to figure out fairly basic things about the present tense plot too, and I'm not sure if that's because the show is too smart for me or not.

Like, is it not strange for those politician guys to literally be choking to death on that sauce for like a solid minute and somehow still come to the conclusion the food is good just because Seven manages to stop the monster before they outright die? Because it sorta seems an awful like it's the need to ramp up the dramatic tension clashing with the logic of the plot in a slightly clunky way.

Now, that kind of very literal stuff is generally a minor annoyance at worst, especially for someone like me, who always cares about the emotional aspect of storytelling more, but I consistently felt that same looseness in the way the episode is constructed there, too? There's a whole relationship between these three chefs that's more hinted at than shown, which not only makes the catharsis of the resolution much weaker, but even left me unsure if the way I'm reading into everything is even correct? I think the idea is that Sannoh deliberately wanted to use the surgery as an excuse to give his apprentices this big chance to come into their own because he's too stern to just encourage them normally or something? But for one thing, that would mean ZEZTZ is fighting merely to keep a situation from being changed for the worse, which I still think is less inherently gratifying to watch than a hero who can actively make a positive change beyond blowing up the bad guy. Even beyond that, though, without a scene of those apprentices actually, you know, reconciling with Sannoh at the end, it all ends up feeling a bit hollow?

And all this stinks to say! I'm not consciously disliking Zeztz at all, but there's this creeping sense of void to it that I still haven't been able to shake after a couple months, despite being fairly impressed by the premiere. It feels like all the metaphorical gears are in place for a show that can do some really exciting stuff, but right now those gears are all kinda grinding up against each other in a way that makes the overall experience less than the sum of its parts. Really hope to see that storytelling machine running smoother in the months to come.

Okay, first of all, that sauce looks disgusting. Like, I think French cuisine in general is pretty nasty but that sauce is fucking vile.

Second, I'm kinda with Fish on this one: I'm not really sure how the logistics of this work. So far it seems like the dreams are most directly impacting the dreamer, but in this case the old guy is passed out in the hospital and has nothing to do with the making of the horrible green sauce. How exactly is it briefly poisonous? I haven't rewatched the earlier episodes, but this doesn't feel consistent with how the Nightmares have been working so far.

Third, thanks to occasional exposure to a certain toy reviewer on YouTube I cannot help but think of the Restore form as Big Time Letdown Zeztz. Not a reflection of the quality of the suit or the action. I love that we are going full DenGasher with whatever Zeztz's weapon is called. You already won me over with sword and gun modes, adding an axe is just icing on top at this point.

Fourth, it would have been nice to know that the episode was airing an hour earlier this week, but you can rewind YouTube livestreams so it wasn't that big of a deal.

Well, this and the previous episodes told a standard, yet beautifully shot story. But despite the captivating visuals, the plot itself feels terribly rushed. Many scenes seem out of nowhere and are cut short abruptly. This may confirm the theory that Zeztz's real world is just another layer of a dream, but it hardly touches on the motives of the restaurant owner and his chefs. It's more likely that the script simply didn't fit the format. Or the director simply wasn't interested in this particular story.
In terms of the overall plot, we learn that Nox is Fujimi's missing partner. I guessed this even before I saw the photo. In any case, it confirms my idea that the show is currently focused on being as tight and cohesive as possible, without adding unnecessary elements. So I'm eagerly awaiting the full truth to come out and Nox to start answering questions.
The next episode is dedicated to the paintings. And Nox will continue to demonstrate the new properties of his weapon. It looks like his henshin won't be long in coming.

Healing forms never stop jobbing! Nem using the Capsem to heal Baku reminded me of how in Kamen Rider Fourze Kengo got more use out of the Medical Switch than the titular Rider. It's abilities also just felt undercooked, the ability to repair anything just feels way too situational. Then the Capsem just gets stolen at the end of the episode.

I do agree with the other comments here where the way the new characters from every two parter are treated is just off. It feels like we don't even learn the bare minimum required to have any emotional investment in them, a repercussion of the fact Baku's real life investigation segments are all too brief since they have to make time for all the stuff with his sister and the dream world. The way the story is presented and edited is also just... weird. Important diplomats die of poison for a while, but then the monster is defeated and everything is just peachy now! And while the scene with Fujimi appearing in the window of Baku's hospital room was funny, the fact it ended with Minami seeing a random guy's hand clinging to the windowsill and then not following up on it at all is just as abrupt as the scene last episode where Baku finds poison at the restaurant and then nothing more occurs. Like, what the actual heck is up with how meaningless the real world segments of this show feel? I agree with Fish's sentiment that this show is less than the sum of its parts.

That being said, I do feel like the show is looking up in the future. Now that Nox seems to be taking a more active role and the mysteries surrounding his disappearance and motivations are taking center stage, I'm actually feeling a bit curious about where the show is going. Since he has ties to Fujimi too, this might give the show a solid way to help tie the real world and dream world segment together better too.

My understanding is that Sannoh, the chef, was driven to prove that all the work he and his sous chef's put into their work mattered by pushing himself to make a meal for the conference and fighting through his own illness. But that illness and his own doubts made him afraid of ruining it, which lead to what the Nightmare preyed on.

We know that whatever the Nightmare does in the dream world is enacted in the real world to some extent so Zeztz defeated it in time before the poisoning really took effect.

Though I feel like the main core of the episode was Fujimi's continued efforts to pursue Black Cases, even if no one believes in him but himself (and Nasuka coming around to him) and also solidifying Nem as Baku's dream partner.

The sauce is made poisonous due to the MOTW literally dripping poison goop into it. We see that both in this episode as well as the previous one.

Furthermore, the Nightmares do have powers that bleed into the real world. We've seen this before with stuff like the feathers in the church with the Crow monster and bombings happening in real life in the premiere.

Keep in mind that the premiere spelled out how exactly the nightmares each VOTW has works: Yes they are bad dreams where the monster resides, but they are still realms made up of a person's' subconscious desires. We see in his dreams that Sannoh is the one preparing the food himself; shouldering the responsibility that comes with the upcoming conference and the restaurant itself. Thus, it's pretty safe to assume that while he does want his apprentices to succeed, he's equally afraid of everything going wrong and wants to shoulder that burdon on his own, rather than seeing those he holds dear end up getting their lives ruined due to his shortcomings as a chef and mentor.

I also feel like people aren't exactly viewing how Zeztz has been handling its MOTW of the week plots in quite the right context? To me, these are the fast going B Plots. They are merely vehicles to get our main cast moving so things concerning them can inch forward. What with things like the Recovery Capsem and the twist with Nox's' identity at the end.

Not to mention, pretty much every episode so far has been almost entirely from Baku's' perspective(or his supporting cast), and their jobs aren't to get into the little nitty-gritty of these people's' lives; Simply to stop the situation at hand. As such, us as the viewer aren't going to get any super deep insight into how the chefs all talk to eachother outside of the relevant scenes or the fully details of the conversation between the newlyweds in the Crow two-parter, for example. The value is not in knowing every single little progression point of these people's' lives, but rather knowing that things have been made better, even just a little bit, thanks to the work of Zeztz and his crew.

I dunno man, "All he did was stop the situation from getting worse" seems like a really jaded take to me. Like, yeah. He prevented a bunch of people from dying to food poisoning as well as keeping a business(and those who work for it) from going under. I'm not seeing how there isn't a value of heroism to that.

I feel reasonably confident that it's not. One of the dangers of a show about dreams is that things can reasonably fail to make sense sometimes, and which can leave the audience wondering whether something failed to make sense due to the nature of dreams, or because it was just shoddily-plotted.

I suspect it's going to feel that way unless the majority of the show's story moves to the waking world. It's a core premise problem unless they can figure out how to do a show about dreams that has stakes.

How much more stakes can there be when we see that the dreams can clearly effect the real world, hurt real people, and that eventually the dreamer will get taken over and the whole world might end?

Yay, Super Hero Time is ba- oh wait, there's no Gozyuger next week. For now, we'll just have to count on Zeztz to continue the mission!

The axe is so big, it will make you CRY!

I guess now would be an appropriate time to mention my opinion of Espirim's design. Personally, I think it's redundant to give a green form to a green Rider, like, it could at least have used a different accent color to make it look less monotonous.

And I don't even need to check the kanji to know that the "daka" part of Odaka means hawk, which completes our lucky dream trio with Fujimi and Nasuka.

Fortunately, the preview shows Zeztz using Espirim Barrier. Convenient how he can still use subforms even without having access to the default version.

And you'll be getting a cherry on top of that icing very soon!

True that the main and side characters are always going to get more focus and development than guest characters, but I can also kind of understand Fish's problem here. It's much easier to invest emotionally in the stakes when they're happening to characters we care about, so I prefer it when those guest characters actually present like characters, rather than merely expendable plot devices. Baku cares about these people, so we should feel inclined to care as well, right? The lack of resolution with the chefs does make their conflict seem open-ended in an unsatisfying way.

I think the best thing the show can do is bring back some of these characters later, like Fourze and Gotchard. Like, show us how their lives have improved in a few months after Zeztz secretly helped them out. Maybe Miyuki finally goes abroad, the apprentice chefs push Shirogane Royale to even greater prestige, etc. I don't mind not seeing that stuff now, since realistically things don't change that quickly anyway, but it would be nice to get more closure later.

Agreed. Even though we can't see Zeztz saving lives and happiness, that doesn't mean it isn't happening. He's just as heroic as any average Primary Rider. Reminds me of the Oni's battles against the Makamou, which mostly happens away from public eye.

So I wasn't the only one thinking that! Stuff honestly already looks like poison before the Nightmare even gets to it. :lol

I actually like that about the main four forms. Physicam being the only one to get a major secondary color worked in nicely emphasizes it as the most important one (...even if we're already doing episodes without any version of it showing up), and Esprim's green is more of a pure Green than the distinctly bluish Rider #1 hue the base form has as part of that whole homage, so they stay distinct that way too.

You're completely right about that sounding jaded, and I think you know me well enough by now to know from there that the point I was making there is something else entirely, even if I'm apparently not expressing it properly. I never said that Baku stopping a monster and saving the day isn't heroic. My issue is more complex than that.

The part of it that's probably making me sound more harsh than I intend is that -- as I've gone on about many, many times on this site -- I do personally want for there to be heroism going on outside of the fighting, because that's something that I deeply respect about Kamen Rider as a franchise, and something I consider nearly ubiquitous across just about every show since Kuuga came along. These are generally shows that place a notable emphasis on stuff like having empathy for others and things of that sort -- forms of heroism that the average viewer will actually have chances to apply to their own real lives, as opposed to just the spectacular feats that thrill them because of how fantastical they are.

But that's admittedly wrapped up in my own philosphy of the importance of stories of this sort for children and all that more abstract stuff, which is why the word "inherently" is extremely important when I say it's also "less inherently gratifying" to watch a story that only has one of those two layers. I mostly just want there to be a second layer! I understand completely that it doesn't fit the show for Baku to run around playing therapist or anything that extreme, and I'm not trying to ask for that. But while it's not at all the *only* way to get there, a bit of emphasis on the protagonist helping out people on a more personal level is a very *reliable* way to end up with a richer, more cohesive story for an episode (pair), which I think is another big reason Rider tends to have plots of that sort so often. When all the characters matter to each other that directly, the different plotlines naturally tie together tighter, and you get more chances to have those relationships result in change for somebody involved, whether it's the main characters for the sake of the overaching plot, or the guest characters to give that smaller arc a satisfying sense of progression.

The cohesion is what I'm struggling to see in this show so far, more than anything. If the plots were presented on a less personal level to begin with -- the city being the thing in danger, for example -- I could buy that I'm simply missing the point, but if the emotions and struggles of the guest characters aren't supposed to be as central a focus as anything else, it strikes me as odd to make the basic formula of the show about a hero who runs around in the subconscious minds of individuals, for the express purpose of saving those specific individuals. One of the things about this show's stories I really enjoy is actually how in every single plot so far, there's a turning point where Baku has to stop and consider the Dreamer from a new perspective to get to the bottom of the current case, and aspects like that definitely feel like they're screaming out to be leveraged for drama even further.

I think that's why my posts on Zeztz keep coming out so negative, too. I'm only trying to quickly get across my general opinion, and when I try and consider the episodes as wholes, that's just sort of the result. There's lots of moment-to-moment stuff I liked quite a bit in here, like Nem saving Seven at the start, and Nasuka's little character arc was nice, but they're just that little bit too detached from any grander point to be the things I'm going to mention right away.

Forgive me if I'm totally missing the mark here, but it seems to me that what you guys are asking for is for the show to take more steps towards having the viewer feel empathy for the VOTW, which, sure, but here's my angle.

If we're talking purely the side/weekly characters, I don't think that's the kind of show that Zeztz is aiming to be. I think it moreso expects one to have sympathy for the people involved in the monster plots, rather than the viewer outright putting themselves in the character's' shoes via empathy.

Again, using Baku himself as the viewpoint here, yes, he does care enough about saving the lives of others, but he's also not about to throw himself into the lives of others wholesale. Not unlike say, a firefighter in real life. The only exceptions to this arguably being Nem and Fujimi, of whom he's starting to see as friends and/or allies. A spy typically doesn't stay in one spot for long.

Would it be nice if every single character were super deep and every arc hit me in the feels? Sure, I guess. But again, that doesn't seem to be the goal, and I'd rather try to enjoy a show for what it is than what it isn't. And if the main idea is a slowburn in regards to the arcs of the main cast with some fun superhero antics along the way? Yeah, I have no problem embracing that. If it's not for you, that's fine, I just don't see anything talked about as an inherent failing, per se.

Or maybe I'm the one not tuning into the show properly and everything will flip on me in the coming episodes, who knows?

I guess it's worth comparing to the patients of the week or the Humagear of the week from Takahashi's last shows.

Eh, Kamen Rider has been doing "victim of the fortnight" since Den-O.

- I think I'd agree that Recovery Form is... not that interesting, to be frank? It isn't bad, I don't think, but the thing about making healing powers into a full-fledged form (rather than a tool, or just one power of a form) is that they don't tend to make the action much more exciting; I'm not exactly gonna be missing it if Nox just holds onto it for the rest of the series.

- I'd been thinking that Fujimi's mysterious missing partner might be the missing "hawk" in the Mt. Fuji/eggplant/hawk trio, but I've been blindsided by the idea that he's also Nox. And it just leaves me asking even more questions, like what exactly happened to Odaka to turn him into Nox, or how he intends to use the Recovery Capsem. It makes me excited to see what it'll be like once Baku learns about Odaka and finds out Nox's identity. Or better yet, if Fujimi managed to meet Nox himself somehow.

Very much agree here.

Sometimes the show nails it, with the Bomb Nightmare, or the Prison Nightmare, but then stuff like the Crow and Poison Nightmare seem poised to say far more about these people and then just... don't?

This might also be a bit because I see major similarities to how this show is set up and Wizard, which was a fantastic exploration of the theme of hope, despair, and how one can shift into the other by examining its victims of the week.

This show has probably even more of a chance of doing this for dreams, how they can make us better, and how they can be twisted, but it leaves so much on the floor.

I know it's a bit of unfair criticism to complain about what a show isn't, but this show feels set up for it, but doesn't take advantage of it.

The show nails many aspects of its writing; the ratio between plot, characters, and MOTW-plot is incredibly solid, neither overpowering the other. The action is imaginative and fun. And the way the toys are integrated is great.

It just can't consistently nail the MOTW-plots themself to really be something I'd call great.

The funny thing is, back when Ex-Aid was airing -- and I feel pretty differently about it now -- I remember having very different but still broadly similar problems throughout its run with the guest characters. I'd come out of episodes feeling like they were footnotes in terms of focus, and believing that sort of contradicted the way Emu cared so much about his patients.

So because of that, I *would* have been prepared to lower my expectations for how this show will handle that stuff, but I actually love the way Zero-One handled a ton of its smaller stories about guest Humagears and whatever guest humans they'd be bouncing off of. I didn't at all think Takahashi would ever excel at that aspect of a Rider show based on his first go, but if I were going to pick a series to basically use as ammunition against Zeztz, it'd probably be the first one I'd jump to. Partly to hide the bias I might be bringing into this as another Wizard fan by illuststrating how that isn't the one specific mold I need every show to fit, but also partly so that I'd be pointing out that I don't think the guy making the scripts for this show is somebody lacking in the required talent.

I will also say though, part of the theory I'm slowly forming each week about Zeztz is that the specific complaints I have about it probably aren't the actual problems it has, exactly? The word "cohesion" seems like the closest I've gotten so far, because that's the connective tissue between my whining about the guest characters and my whining about Capsems. Perhaps it even ties together other people's specific complaints. I feel like there's a larger singular truth none of us are quite seeing yet that all these smaller gripes are pointing at -- a mystery that's subliminal in nature, which, admittedly, would be a very thematically revelant way for this show to have problems!

Whenever I chat with my sister about this show she tends to bring up Wizard too. But Wizard has fun with its victim of the fortnight plots in a way that Zeztz just fails at for me. I'm not even *that* big of a Wizard fan, but I think the fact it is so similar to Zeztz makes the comparisons inevitable and for me Wizard is beating it pretty squarely just because Wizard actually seems interested in the random people the main cast has to deal with, while Zeztz seems more interested in using its minor characters as an excuse to put everyone in costumes in an unusual location.

I enjoy monster of the fortnight plots plenty but Zeztz just isn't doing them very well, to the point that I really hope they move on to a different storyline soon. Knowing Takahashi, he WILL do something else soon enough. I just hope it is a move in a positive direction.

I find it interesting that so many people are comparing this show to Wizard, when meanwhile I've been moreso getting W vibes.

That's not to say the ratio is an exact 1:1, mind you. But just in terms of general plot structure as of right now.

I'd definitely agree W is probably a lot closer to what Zeztz is aiming for, for sure. Helps that the tropes that come with detective stories and spy stories tend to have a fair bit of overlap to begin with.

Honestly, I wanted to save these thoughts for later, but since the discussion has gotten so heated, I'll share them now. I think a reference to Takahashi's previous work is indispensable here, especially since the franchise has significantly changed its approach since then. So, if Gotchard is the "anti-Geats" of Kamen Rider in general, then Zeztz is the "anti-Geats" of Takahashi personally. And, as with the schoolboy alchemist, unfortunately, this show goes to the other extreme. The plot of Zeztz in this series is very simple and concise, everything is tightly connected, and the unexpected twists are predictable. There aren't a ton of opposing sides here, nor conflicts between allies, like in Takahashi's previous works. And with such a lean main plot, his typical approach to Mot2W stories as a B-plot doesn't always work for everyone. Simply because it creates a feeling of emptiness and the presence of two B-plots without an A-plot. The approach of other shows (the closest example is its direct predecessor, Gavv, but it can be traced back to Den-O and even Showa) is more appropriate here. Where the main plot plays a secondary role and is even paused, Mot2W really shines.
But at the same time, for me personally, this is a small problem. The characters in the show are likable, the dream visuals are charming and sometimes frightening, and the plot, though simple, is still interesting. While it's too early to draw any conclusions, at this point, Zeztz seems like a show I could quite happily spend a year watching. However, it's not exactly a favorite just yet.

Even Technolom keeps the green head though. Espirim is just green everything and next to Physicam, I can't see anything about it that stands out, regardless of the warmer shade. I think a pastel green accent would've worked better for distinction, like so:

https://litter.catbox.moe/cmcroc.png

I totally agree that there should be a distance between Baku and the people he fights to protect. It's in an agent's best interest to keep a low profile, even while feeling passionately inside. As GoldenXtreme pointed out, this is where the Wizard comparison ends, since Haruto's whole backstory and motivation makes him a functionally different hero. If Zeztz needs a perspective to bridge that distance, then Nem's job as an idol is to act in the spotlight and bring cheer to everybody, which seems like a deliberate contrast to an agent. Let her be the empathetic side of the show that Baku can't afford to be.

This is a good explanation. Perhaps one of the reasons why Zero One is praised for its guest characters is due to them being the only thing keeping the show going during the dreaded Work Competition where the main plot loses all momentum. Den-O is mostly a show of connected B-plots, so it has nothing to lose from the start and instead thrives from the freedom. I honestly think the introduction of a convoluted A-plot felt distracting from the formula that makes Den-O good. Zeztz is enjoyable so far, but I agree, it does need to find a better balance.

I think with Zero-One and Wizard it kind of necessitated the protagonist getting more personally involved with the people they were dealing with week-after-week compared to Baku who is this secret agent who just slips into their dream and saves them and whom they'll never really know or recognize that much.