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dreamcastegirl 05-17-2021 10:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yarlick (Post 800792)
dreamcastegirl, hey, you misunderstood me : longtime fans here are japanese, not us.
I apologise for not registering that, that's absolutely my fault, sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yarlick (Post 800792)
Why are people trying to fix what's not broken?
That would be historical lack of representation and misrepresentation in media across a spectrum of cultures. One of the ways in which we learn is through identifying with characters in fiction, and when you can't see that, when that image of you is nowhere in the world around you, then it can be a very saddening experience. Considering others, trying to include others... I don't see how this can diminish any narrative.

I do appreciate your point, you would like for a sense of authenticity in what you wish, for it to be the "original" project, and I'm not really sure what to say there as such is highly subjective. I don't necessarily believe there is an original project, and if there is, I don't believe we can experience it as we're bringing our own ideas and feelings to the table every time we engage with the story; even watching tokusatsu with subtitles, that is an interpretation rather than the original story.

I am confused at how you arrived at some of your examples, though, and this idea that Star Wars is somehow now a franchise based around a central tenet of hating men I find to be incredulous at best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yarlick (Post 800792)
If your formula worked for some westerners and your main fandom AKA Japan, then WHY the hell do you want to take cues from the USA?!
This is where we get into the difference between a story and a product. In the later respect, there's a whole host of reasons why you would want to do this with a product, mostly because of lack of market retention and the desire to make more money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yarlick (Post 800792)
I really don't understand that mindset. (And as most can tell...yeah I'm pissed off >.> so sorry if I hurted anyone.)
You're fine, honestly, and I apologise if I come across as challenging your views. I think maybe we simply have different opinions based on how such media has treated us.

IndigoArms 05-17-2021 10:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yarlick (Post 800792)
dreamcastegirl, hey, you misunderstood me : longtime fans here are japanese, not us.

Caution : Ranting :

But even so, I'm sorry but including some stuff just for the sake of getting a broader audience is a big no no.
That's what has been done for some mangas,animes and video games, and now these things are utter trash.

RE is just but a shadow of what it previously was because it tried to cater to a strictly american audience (hey, sorry...)

Sonic Team has beaten to death the Sonic Franchise by incorporating useless stuff like the Original Character Do Not Steal in Forces. (DeviantArt fandom)

Star Wars went full on misandry, shat on its original fanbase, and is now utter crap if it wasn't for the spin off on Disney +.

Dragon Ball/Super....Tried to cater to mainly the american audience in terms of fanservice, is void of any substance there could be...

The original Nier sold greatly in Japan but Square Enix America told the Japanese branch that Replicant wouldn't work in the west because the hero was a brother wanting to save his sister.
The original American Nier sold poorly and we are now, 11 years later with the Replicant version, THE OG, and it's outsolding the American Nier.
And you know what SQEXUSA said to Japan? " Oh well sorry, the american audience prefers the brother instead of the father in the end, we fucked up you should have gone with your original vision"


Why are people trying to fix what's not broken?
If your formula worked for some westerners and your main fandom AKA Japan, then WHY the hell do you want to take cues from the USA?!

Also...Really? Taking cues from the US...FOR THE REST of the world? European culture is vastly different from the american one.
The african culture is also vastly different from the american one.
Why do we have to have japanese stuff with silly decisions made by the US?
We just want the original experience, what japanese people would experience if there was no input from foreigners. (still need the sub though >.>)

And I don't think that most western tokusatsu fans want to see more americanized japanese stuff.

It's like, it would never come to my mind to give my opinion about some american stuff and say "change that, it's crap". I don't like it, I don't watch it, it doesn't need to cater to me.

Look, Kamen Rider Saber is its own thing, I watched 3 to 5 episodes, it didn't click to me, you never see me talk about it nor give my opinion on it.
I'm just like "Ho well, it isn't for me, move on"

When it comes to making things readily available, I'm ok with the US or any westerner taking part in the plan, but straight up telling Toei or the japanese to change their way they view things is just....errrr... just clean in front of your door before telling to others to clean theirs.

I really don't understand that mindset. (And as most can tell...yeah I'm pissed off >.> so sorry if I hurted anyone.)
Damn right, you tell it as it is dude. I completely agree with you. Targeting a broader audience and changing the product to fit it that makes it lose its identity and the product suffers greatly from it, and then fans start to leave it.

dreamcastegirl 05-17-2021 11:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by IndigoArms (Post 800795)
Damn right, you tell it as it is dude. I completely agree with you. Targeting a broader audience and changing the product to fit it that makes it lose its identity and the product suffers greatly from it, and then fans start to leave it.
Forgive my bluntness but aren't you then advocating in favour of exactly what your argument Chasing was about in the first place: that if you can't meet some arbitrary criteria, you don't deserve to participate.

Future Rider Prism 05-17-2021 11:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by IndigoArms (Post 800795)
Damn right, you tell it as it is dude. I completely agree with you. Targeting a broader audience and changing the product to fit it that makes it lose its identity and the product suffers greatly from it, and then fans start to leave it.
Then tell me who is and is not part of that audience. Tell me who you think deserves to be included in media.

And think very carefully before you do.

Yarlick 05-17-2021 11:17 AM
I think I found a better way to convey my feeling :

Targeting a broader audience doesn't equal to changing the product.
If we came to like Tokusatsu as it is, the only thing Toei has to do is NOT changing the product, but making it readily available worldwide.

Changing the product to target an audience never worked because you end up loosing your established customer base and the new customers will eventually stop from caring. ( Say hello to the Wii/Wii U with the arrival of casual players it didn't work in the long run)

dreamcastegirl 05-17-2021 11:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yarlick (Post 800801)
Targeting a broader audience doesn't equal to changing the product.
If we came to like Tokusatsu as it is, the only thing Toei has to do is NOT changing the product, but making it readily available worldwide.
I understand, yet I feel that it is inevitable that the product must change, even for the Japanese market—otherwise Kamen Rider would still be a show about a cyborg on a motorcycle kicking Neo-Nazi mutants.

However, even if it does change, it doesn't mean that you are somehow locked out forever; those former stories still exist. It's no secret that I've not been a fan of some of the directions modern toku has gone in, but I feel it would be pretty monstrous of me to insist that everyone here only watches Stronger just because of how I feel about those choices.

Future Rider Prism 05-17-2021 11:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yarlick (Post 800801)
I think I found a better way to convey my feeling :

Targeting a broader audience doesn't equal to changing the product.
If we came to like Tokusatsu as it is, the only thing Toei has to do is NOT changing the product, but making it readily available worldwide.

Changing the product to target an audience never worked because you end up loosing your established customer base and the new customers will eventually stop from caring. ( Say hello to the Wii/Wii U with the arrival of casual players it didn't work in the long run)
Can you explain to me who you think is asking Toei to change anything? I can't see where anyone here said that in the first place.

And what changes do you think they're making that's driving away the audience?

Yarlick 05-17-2021 11:41 AM
I would say, dreamcast(e)girl? (see my pun?)

That's what I understood from their interactions.

As it was said, the product might have to change, and if something like Dragon Ball changed to be more to american's taste, that might happen with Tokus.

As for "changing", like it happened in the Showa Era versus Heisei is much more an attempt at modernizing the series than changing its real core elements.
Because in the long run, you still had some of the original Rider tropes in Heisei and Neo Heisei riders.

There's a thing I would love to discuss but that's another topic (I'm full of contradictions).
It's women in Tokusatsu. So that will have to wait a bit I guess.

Fredbob392 05-17-2021 11:53 AM
God, and I thought this site was more chill about the idea of diversity than most other nerd websites. Was Naki being non-binary, or Yua being the first female tertiary Rider a sin against the great and forever unchanging Showa ideology, forced upon an unwilling Japan by evil American SJWs? Or is it possible that the world as a whole has become a more progressive place, not just in America, but in Japan too?

dreamcastegirl 05-17-2021 11:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yarlick (Post 800805)
As it was said, the product might have to change, and if something like Dragon Ball changed to be more to american's taste, that might happen with Tokus.
You didn't like Dragonball: Evolution then? :p (I'm joking!)

I think the original Dragon Ball itself is already an interpretation of American tastes, drawing its influence as much from Superman comics as Chinese texts. In fact I could argue that Dragon Ball is not an authentic translation of Journey to the West, but it would be silly, because I enjoy both of these stories.

I'm labouring the point and I don't wish to sound tiresome. I keep coming back to how Power Rangers was received when it was originally aired, and whilst I have never paid much attention to the show, I always thought it sad that one of the ways in which people mocked those stories was because they sought to represent a broader and diverse cast. I will end my comments here, but I really don't think it would be a bad thing for stories to learn from such an example.


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