Formulaic? There is a distinction between tropes and clichés. A healthy franchise has plenty of tropes and self awareness.

Keep in mind that we are all genre-savvy toku fans with enough interest in the shows to come to an online message board to discuss them. Blah blah blah, target audience etc, it's okay to grow out of something that is long running - often times it's not the show's fault for not growing with you or appearing stale, people just grow beyond the confines of what something is trying to be.

Show me a 40 year old franchise that doesn't rely on formulas and tropes, and I can show you younger ones that have failed for trying to reinvent themselves too much too soon.

For the first part of this, kind of. He comes back due to paradoxes in Super Movie Wars Genesis and as a ghost in Drive Saga: Mach. As for the second part, there was that whole arc where Gou was seemingly brainwashed by Freeze into turning on the others.

Oh, Kamen Rider is definitely formulaic, especially with how toys and forms as well as big story points are placed in the last few years.

However, and that is the big, however, each show still feels fundamentally distinct from the last. ZI-O is a two-parter show with a slowly building story in the background, Zero-One a story-driven show that goes hard in on its worldbuilding with mostly one-off episodes in its first arc before moving into a 2 episode structure in its middle and Saber has a unique mix of one-offs and two-parters while using the same monster 2 weeks in a row.

Only because you can roughly predict when the first upgrade, the new, powerful Rider, and other such things can come in, doesn't mean they can't be vastly differently executed, which Rider excellse at.

The Kamen Rider formula I've seen so far:

- Rider starts in base form.
- Rider collects new toys for sub-forms.
- Rider loses his new toys.
- Rider achieves new form by making/finding new toys.
- Rider collects more toys for new sub-forms.
- Rider loses his new toys again.
- Rider unlocks an ultimate form.
- Rider fights his final battle in base form.

I found out that one of the biggest reason Kamen Rider doesn't feature bike scenes is because of Japan's law against customized bikes on street due to biker gangs. That's very sad.

Like I was gonna suggest that if the bike scenes are too expensive, they could at least have the Riders arrive to battle with their bikes, Heisei era pre-Gaim actually did that (iirc Wizard used his bike a lot to get around). Honestly it was pretty miraculous that Build was able to use his bike as much as he can to the point where Build is that one Rider that you'd associate with his bike the most.

I think I heard somewhere that Toei originally thought that Build was going to be their last heisei rider, so they went all-in on it. Going back to the roots with the human experimentation and what not.

Makes sense because you can clearly see Build is that one series where they really, really went all out (and sadly I think Zi-O suffered because of that). It's great that the show end up as a huge success too.

The thing I always point to is Build's Legend Rider forms basically being Kamen Rides, and well; the movie being called 'Heisei Generations FINAL' and getting back as many post-Decade main riders as they could; even Gentarou and Ankh.

If they had chosen to end the entire Kamen Rider franchise after the Eiji/Ankh stuff in that movie, I'd've understood why. Is there a longer, more fulfilling journey than those two had in Heisei? Top of the mountain, end on a high note.

I realized Touma's insistence on his "YAKUSOKU"s is similar to knights being all about their oaths.

A new book focusing on the designs of 19 Heisei monster groups (Gurongi, Unknown, Mirror Monster, Orphnoch, Undead, Makamou, Worm, Imagin, Fangire, Dopant, Greeed, Zodiarts, Phantom, Inves, Roidmude, Ganma, Bugster, Smash and Another Rider)

http://hobbyjapan.co.jp/books/book/b...ovD-lmjmfOgP14

Since it’s unlikely anyone here will get the book, I’d just like to hear some general thoughts on the different aesthetics.

If I'm gonna be honest the Smashes from Build have to be the worst monsters in Heisei Kamen Rider. From both a design and story standpoint. Designwise they don't really stick out to me. And the story never really focused on them at all. More focused the 3 nations, the other riders and Stalk.

I can't say I agree? They just seemed to me like they were largely faceless soldiers, and just goons to the 'real' enemies. Build never had a Monster of The Week formula, so of course the "Monsters" were given little thought.

...wait I just explained why they were bad, not why they weren't.

oops.

Yeah, the Smash... never really did it for me, I have to say. They really felt like an afterthought to an otherwise awesome season; very generic monsters. It's a shame really, for the season that really went for being an update to Rider '71, the episodic Kaijin could have been better.

To get some positivity started -- the Greeed have always, always been my favourite. Deeply sympathetic tragic villains that aren't doing what they're doing because of some villain complex, but because it's all they know what to do and are left clawing and scraping for an imagined 'complete' life. Beautiful. Other favourites would be the Grongi and the Douji & Hime; who each are a huge part of their seasons' iconography and is impossible to imagine them without.

Design-wise, I adore the Grongi, and I'm gaining a newfound appreciation for the Ganma. The Unknown are phenomenally freakish and terrifying; otherworldly corruptions of the earth's creatures well beyond what any other season has done. And, damn, I really just can't not mention how consistently awesome the (non-CGI) Another Riders were, huh?

Greeed were great.
Never watched Kuuga.

Another Riders ranged from great designs with suits that reflected a twisted version of the rider they represented (Double being two people fused together, Den-O basically being an Imagin with armor, Wizard having empty eye sockets) to... whatever Build and Ex-Aid were supposed to be.

Build and Ex-Aid were definitely some of the weaker ones, being as they were the two first ones made to introduce the concept -- so they were mostly saddled with "rider but they're a monster". Though to me that's good enough on its own; and Build in particular has a fun little design quirk where his body is made beefy and strong; combined with his host and powers being based on athletic abilities -- ie, the complete opposite to Sento.

Another Ex-Aid also had mold on him. Which I think was really nice touch. Kinda sad we never got Another Genm though would've given the GenmArmor Geiz got something to do.

I'd also like the Bugsters most of them were for the most part minor characters but I feel like they did enough to distunguish rach one both design wise and personaloty wise.

I... guess.

Bugsters were great yea, especially with how they "evolved" with the crew. I think the bike dude was my personal favorite.

If we're talking aesthetics, the Undead from Blade deserve a mention for being, well, evil leather-and-jangly-chain animals. They do a good job at being unified and also very deadly looking.

I'm also gonna pull in a very "me" move and mention the Phantoms. Aesthetically, mythology is a very good source to pull from (Phoenix and Gremlin particularly look outstanding to me), and storywise their ability to blend in and be anyone lets you do some good MOTW plots.

The best monster aesthetics go to Super-1. When you've got suck out-there ideas like a Ladder Monster, an Rollerskating Monster, and a friggen Soap Monster, you make your goons almost impossible to forget.

Top tier Heisei monster designs for me have go right back to the start with the Grongi, who benefit from a ton of extra thought put into their designs and suits. Case in point, on top of reflecting their barbarian culture, those loincloths were there to hide obvious creasing around the suits' thighs when they move that would break the illusion you're looking at an organic creature.

After that, over time I've really grown to appreciate the way Faiz challenged itself to differentiate the Orphenochs entirely through their (often quite appealing) sculpts, while in contrast, I think the Undead are some of the most immediately memorable Rider monsters; Yasushi Nirasawa was very good at his job.

And then on an even more personal level, I love the Ganma for being such goofy and characterful throwbacks to a simpler time (or a modern one, if you're Sentai I guess), and the Phantoms for just plain looking cool. To this day, Legion is actually more-or-less my favorite Rider monster ever, even!

There's definitely at least a couple guys to love in any series though. Even the Smash get the Three Crows, you know?

...I guess? Like with the Three Crows I like them but not because thier monster designs or anything to do with thuer monster forms. But rather the relationship with Katsumi. It honestly them being monster add nothing characters. Hell I think having them just be ordinary soldiers would've been even more impactful. Showing how loyal and brave they are volunteering despite having no powers.

I'm sorry for being so negativly torwards Build in this thread. The weird thing is I don't knkw why this of all things is making me negative despite knowing Build was more intreasted in the conflict between the 3 Nations and the Rider battles. It the monsters that I'm severly dissapointed in this show.

It's fine to be negative about aspects of a show! Build is my 2nd favourite Rider show - and, heck, 2nd favourite Toku show overall - and I agree with pretty much everything you're saying about the kaijin!

Oh, it absolutely helps that those guys were fairly major, likable characters, and I'm sure that's coloring my opinion, but I honestly do think of those suits as being the standout monster designs from Build just on their own merits. They've got really distinct silhouettes and clear motifs. Although they got a bit lamer when they ditched the perfect Sentai color scheme combo...

Hey, wait, I started out trying to say good things about the Smash, right? Man, this really is hard! :lol

For me the best monsters were in Faiz. The pale drybushing really helped sell the cold deadness of the orphonochs, and even of they were all just one palette of grey with shading, they were each distinct and eye catching. Plus, they were fucking terrifying and really helped sell the inhuman nature of Faiz.

I shall be the one who defends the Smash! And by defends the Smash I mean, defends one aspect of them I enjoyed. Every single one's first appearance aesthetic wise. They're so weird and colorful, and nice to look at. They scream human experimentation. Hell I even love the 3 Crows because of how colorful they ended up being too.

Then we get the repeats, or rather, the four normal Smash (Strong, Press, Flying, and Stretch) who got repainted twice in boring drab grey colors and given different legs to show the Hazard and Clone versions. Even the Crow Smash ended up getting repainted over, their first forray into Hazard Smash was fine since they kept the colored legs, but then once they got to the Lost Smash phase we ended up getting boring gunmetal grey coloration with colors highlighting little pieces of their bodies.

My issue with the Smash is simple, them getting repainted into boring dull colors, and them only doing it with four of them and making every time they showed up again yawn inducing.

Anyway if I had to pick a favorite, that'd be tough, I honestly love a lot of them, whether it be the Fangire for their stain glassed motif, or the Another Riders for being nice twisted versions of their counterparts. A lot of monsters I really, really enjoy.

Another Ex-Aid looks like The Predator, because hunting people was his game (?) He looked badass though

Like its been said before, the Greeed are fantastic villains. But the Yummies are some of my favorite MOTW designs

Just look at this nightmare fuel

https://78.media.tumblr.com/8fd11fc0...ulg7o1_500.gif

Maybe not my favorites, but I'll throw a bone to the Fangires. I always liked the stained glass motif they had.

The worst are, of course, is the trash Toei pulled out of the unused costume bin for the second part of Hibiki. Not objectively bad, but clearly not made with any fidelity to the show's existing aesthetics.

I've always leaned more towards the motw with a unifying design aesthetic. The Orphnoch's monochrome colour scheme, the Fangire's glass motif, the Yummy's two faces, the Zodiart's constellation patterns, the Ganma all having the same blue-eyed face, the Another Riders all having their name and year pasted on them (though I really dislike how the ones in second half of Zi-O just all had 2019 pasted on them).

I even really like the Magears and Raiders. I get why people would find the fact that they're all just bits attached to the same undersuit to be cheap or boring, but I really just dig that consistency to them. Whenever one shows up, I just know right away "Ooh it's a Magear!!!" and maybe some thrifty part of me appreciates budget-conscious decisions like that.

Random thought that came to me, but I don't think Diend's making the best use of the Diendriver. His usual modus operandi is basically just steal something, get caught stealing and then summon Riders to fight his pursuers. I wonder if he ever thought of summoning multiple Riders to steal stuff for him or summon Riders so they can steal large or multiple objects at once.

I don't remember seeing this when I watched OOO but yeah, thanks, just what I needed to see tonight!

But then he wouldn't get the personal thrill and rush of stealing stuff himself.

The summoned riders also don't seem very... smart? I definitely wouldn't trust em with a heist!

Speaking of Diend's summoned Riders, has there ever been any kind of official clarification on what exactly those are? As in, are they supposed to be the actual Riders themselves he's summoning, or are they just some kind of copy? Their behavior kind of implied the latter, since they don't ever really express any personality beyond filling whatever function Diend needed them for, but I don't think I've ever seen any explanation of the exact mechanics of how that works.

What's even weirder is that sometimes they do exhibit some personality -- signature poses for instance, or Psyga's maniacal laughing. But obviously very few of them would go along with what Diend wants especially when it comes to more heroic ones like Birth and Todoroki, so... ????

My theory is that they’re projections, to go with the camera motif the show has. Though I know someone suggested that he summons them and brainwashes them to serve him.

... oh, yeah, and then there was the time he summoned Black who was just straight up Kotaro Minami

But it's technically an alternate Kotaro Minami. Man Decade is confusing. Did you know that the Kenzaki Kazuma from the final episode of Decade isn't the original one.? Toei has retcon him to be an alternate version as well.

Diend not making any sense? This too is Decade's fault.

Well I guess the best answer then is to just never try to make any kind of coherent sense out of Decade. :lol

Simple, they're projections except for when they're not :P