IMO Izu is more consistently okay, at worst she just blends into the background, but she doesn't have many moments where she really shines. Mei on the other hand has plenty of moments where she's actively annoying, but also has more scenes where it feels like she actually adds something to the cast besides exposition.

It's a perfect demonstration of machines vs humans: a machine can consistently meet a set standard of quality, but will rarely excel beyond its baseline, while a human is a variable, with the risk of falling below what's desired but also the potential to exceed expectations.

Well I can add another controversial opinion: for some reason I actually didn't find Mei annoying in the episodes of Saber I watched, tbh Tassel is a hard act to follow on that front, I struggled to care about most of the characters and the only issue I do have with Mei if anything is her tolerance of this protagonist I do find boring, sorry! :p

Why ? he is a pathetic annoying manchild,

He's funny, he's a constant source of positivity, he's an absolute fashion icon, he's always there for people in need, his chemistry with the rest of the cast is absolutely on point, and the three story arcs the show had that had him as a major focus were among my favorites in Wizard.

Rampage Vulcan while not a terrible suit, it's definitely on the ugly side of things for me. A bit too much blue and the teal on one half of the body as well as the color accents on the side of the head look really gaudy. All of Vulcan's other forms look way better in my opinion.

My favorite character in Build was Kazumin.

Genius form is not awful it just not good and Evol is a generic but enjoyable villain.

Evolto's character since episode 40 are really boring in my opinion....

I think he more interesting as political manipulator than as generic planet destroyer.....

I... don't understand all the love for Jaou Dragon.

- Visually is where I see the most love for it, but it's... okay at best, in my opinion? It just isn't very interesting and I feel it is a massive downgrade from the much more beautiful base form. I love a cape as much as the next girl and his helmet's not bad, and I certainly wouldn't call it ugly, but I seriously don't get the love here. It's mostly just a lot of purple.

- Story-wise it's probably the most pointless upgrade in Rider history (which is saying a lot!) when Calibur was ALREADY a super-powerful earlygame bad guy that the heroes were having trouble standing up to, and his powerset made him beating down their more powerful Wonder Combos believable. It honestly made him a lot less badass too as suddenly he needed to rely on a power-up before Saber even got Dragonic Knight, compared to say Horobi or Blood Stalk.

Too me it's the henshin sound that makes the form for me. Otherwise it just alright a little bit top heavy.

Honestly, I feel like none of the upgrades in Saber really had any narrative or emotional weight until Primitive Dragon. The three-book combos, Jaou, Dragonic Knight, King Lion, X Swordman, some of them looked good visually but they brought so little to the story that they might as well not exist except to sell toys. Rekka glowing and being able to separate humans from Megid was a more meaningful power-up than most of Touma's books!

Oh, absolutely -- Dragon Alangina was more meaningful than any of them! I wanted to disagree with this so hard because Dragonic Knight is maybe one of the best Rider designs I've seen in my life... but yeah it and Daisenki got shafted some of the worst I've seen in YEARS. The narrative it debuted in only really called for a quick one-time power-up through like a cheer boost from his friends or whatever and the narrative Daisenki debuted in called for... nothing! And then they were just whatever afterwards.

I will say that X-Swordman feels a lot more meaningful as it coincides with Yuuri having learnt more about the modern world and embracing its ideals which allows him to be a knight himself again, and I do like that quite a bit myself. But the others I couldn't agree more. For a franchise that's had a horrific glut of toys since at least Gaim, Saber is I'd say the season hit hardest by having to advertise so much. Which isn't even anything specific to the writing, I think anyone would have issues with this!

I honestly do get Baron Lemon Energy Arms vibes from Jaoh Dragon. At least Jaoh Dragon is kinda pretty, I guess.

The silver from Jaaku Dragon is what sells the design to me. Jaoh Dragon just looks bland to me, after losing almost all of it. I also would have loved to see Dragonic Knight VS Jaaku Dragon somehow, since they've both got the knight thing going on.

I don't want to get started on King Lion DaiSenki. I'm still quite annoyed by it for so many reasons.

The Dragonic and Lionic Boosters are some of the biggest wastes of time and money I've seen in the franchise in a while. The last time I ever felt this way was with the Ride Boosters from Drive - which are, coincidentally, the same colors, too.

"When everything is important then nothing is"

Hopefully with Saber doing worse than the past two series they'll dial back the amount of toys in Q1 or the at the very least the "importance" of said toys.

I would actually say that Saber has been one of the few Kamen Rider shows to have most items actually have a direct tie to the current narrative of the show. each item is actually reflective of their debut episode. I could list all of them, but that might be a long post lol.

Dragonic Knight still got better treatment than Shining Hopper, thats for sure.

So I've been thinking about this a bunch (as though I need an excuse to think about Saber), and while I'll say upfront I wouldn't exactly argue with this assessment, I have declared myself a Saber apologist in the past, so I thought I'd be fun to take a quick look at every "major" upgrade in the show so far and give my opinion on how much narrative/emotional weight I feel was attached to them.

Fantastic Lion – pretty textbook form debut in my book. Rintarou gets beat to crap by Zooous, we learn about the past of both characters, see Rintarou training super hard to master the Wonder Combo, and then he uses it to go save the day, which includes fending off Zooous. The classic "defeat followed by rematch" formula is especially key here!

Dragon Arthur – also debuts in the same episode as Fantastic Lion, but gets its real focus story immediately afterwards, which does a super clever trick by having the whole point being Touma realizing his allies are more powerful than any shiny new toy, cementing the bond between the Riders in an episode that kinda acted nicely like a mini season finale, since the show took the next week off. I really loved this one.

Crimson Dragon – The actual objective weakest form debut in Saber. Y'all are only harping on King Lion instead because you probably forgot Crimson Dragon had a debut, since it had the misfortune of being placed within Slash's debut, which naturally means the episode isn't particularly focused on Touma or anything. One of the most egregious examples of Saber's crazy pacing, and it's kind of telling I only started to love this form once it kept sticking around into the second arc.

Golden Alangina – Not much to complain about here. Lets Kento complete the Wonder Combo trio after learning to let his friends help him at least a little with his personal problems, allowing them to finally stomp all over Calibur after it was established that even one Wonder Combo was a bit much for him to go up against. "Climactic showdown against major rival character" is once again pretty textbook timing for a big upgrade.

Jaou Dragon – Puts Calibur right back up to snuff after that last fight; also thoroughly tied into his whole quest for ultimate power or whatever. Maybe a nice bit of (likely unintended) symbolism that Calibur ditches the mask look after his identity is revealed? All that considered, yeah, still not the best this show has done so far.

Dragonic Knight – Hugely tied in with Touma's whole mysterious destiny and being chosen by his sword and Luna and all that, so for all I know, it'll have more weight in retrospect, but like Jaou Dragon, it's mostly just decent taken as is. There's a tough bad guy, big stakes, and a big turnaround, so it's hitting all the notes, but it's maybe not going any further than that.

King Lion Dai Senki – The episode does a whole thing where Rintarou is kept on the sidelines so he can swoop in when the other Riders need him most, so again, it's not nothing, but there's not much time spent dramatizing Rintarou's emotions, and he's not waiting on those sidelines for any particularly compelling reason. But guys, it looks so cool! If I may do that apologist shtick a bit, I do think it's pretty appropriate thematically for his character that Rinatrou's big upgrade is something forged by his comrades in the organization, rather than some mystical gift like Touma keeps getting. Even the high tech motif makes kinda ties in to it being made by Daishinji, since Suzune has a similar thing going on. See, there's stuff you can pull from this form if you just look hard enough! :p

X-Swordman – Kurona already made my argument for me, so I'll instead note that this is an interesting case study of Saber's freewheeling approach a lot of these introductions, as most of the dramatic character beats for Yuri happen in the episodes surrounding the debut, rather than the debut itself. Care is put in to build it up gradually, but the Book itself is ultimately a B-plot in a story focused squarely on Touma's development. Great form introduction; not at all textbook.

Primitive Dragon/Elemental Dragon – Not going to waste too much time explaining this one. Very straightforward and meaty plot arc, very well-executed. Check the episode threads again if you really need me to gush more about these ones. :p

Tategami Hyoujuu Senki – Really loving this one too the more I think about it. Remember how I said it was a nice choice to have Rintarou's big upgrade tied into the organization he holds so dear? Well they did it again, but it's more than just subtext this time.

...and that's a whole lot of toys, isn't it!? I honestly think (and again, I know this is apologist talk) that Saber might be consciously refusing to try and make every single one some huge character study in an effort to keep some freedom in how it structures the narrative that way. Sort of in the same way Zero-One didn't bother attaching much significance to Shining Assault Hopper beyond it being a tough new form for Aruto, for example.

Still though, I think I said a few times early on that while I'm fine with Saber being crazy, I do really hope Toei/Bandai figure out a better balance soon, because if this kind of thing keeps getting more extreme each year, I'm definitely going to hit the point where I'm no longer fine with it. Heck, even specific to Saber, I can't help but notice the show has seemingly finally given up on Brave Dragon lately, and base forms falling out of regular use is one of my biggest pet peeves with recent Rider shows.

Oh, and since this whole conversation started with the simple question of Gold or Silver? I'll go ahead and mention I'm firmly in the silver camp too. I don't think you can go wrong with either, but a lot of little things about Jaaku Dragon appeal to me more than its regal successor.

You know what Fish, I'll agree with you on basically all of these.

Crimson Dragon definitely has the weakest of the debuts. But I still put King Lion Dai Senki down there with it just a bit. But you made me see more of the positive aspects.

However to me it just reads as

Rintaro: Daishinji I want the new toy
Daishinji: Alright, I put it in the oven at 350 for 15 minutes.

In regards to how... not weighty it feels. At least to me, like I totally get the idea of, "Oh this is them forging their own based after Touma's" but I feel like Saber's rushed pacing sort of hampered that just a bit. That's just me though.

What is a damn crime is them sticking to Elemental Dragon for Rintaro's big arc these past four episodes. It really should have been Dragonic Knight and King Lion fighting against Zooous and the Neko Megid since the only real power needed in that fight was the power the swords held, not Elemental.

I'm actually harping on Daisenki most because I don't even count the wonder combos :lol

Like, I GUESS they're kind of upgrades, sort of, but it's really hard to look at them that way more than one of Zi-O's ride armours or Breaking Mammoth. For one thing as you've outlined, only Fantastic Lion actually had any narrative significance attached to it, and these really aren't that special or significant compared to an actual big upgrade. ... granted, I also may harbor a massive unforgiveable grudge against Crimson Dragon for pulling in a ridiculous amount of appearances pre-Primitive Dragon where Brave and Dragonic could have been used; so that's also effecting my view of things :p

And heck, to count something like Crimson Dragon or Dragon Arthur as an upgrade and not Dragon Alangina? For shame!

Weird thing: I watched saber in a chunk, so it really felt like the build up for Rintaro getting his upgrade came in the episodes around King Lion Daisenki's debut. The whole "we're family" and "I'm only a homosapien" lines come to mind.


Edit: actually hold on.

Fish, I'm sure you're used to hearing this by now, but I love how much throught and analysis you put into this <3

And yeah, now that you spell it out like this, I can't disagree that each power-up did have some amount of emotional buildup and represent a new growth for the character. I could argue that many of those emotional beats would've worked just fine without the rider gaining a new form, but that probably applies to a lot of Kamen Rider in general.

I guess my problem was that I forgot a lot of them? And part of that's just on me for being forgetful! Although I do think the sheer number of upgrades makes each one less memorable, especially in Touma's case.

Oh, don't get the wrong idea; that's totally how it reads to me, too. Again, he's really not waiting around in that room for a particularly compelling reason.

Well then shame on you too! :p

First of all, Golden Alangina is literally all Espada got, so I'll let the poor guy have that, and Crimson Dragon is a form I fell in love with specifically because of that beautiful period in the second quarter where it, Brave Dragon, and Dragonic Knight were all existing in harmony. It really felt like all three of them were important, and design-wise, I think the Wonder Combos really emphasize everything that makes Saber's designs so unique, with the aggressive amount of detail and three completely unrelated motifs smashed together in one suit.

And for the record, the reason Dragon Alangina isn't on that list is because it's SO good, it needs even less explanation than (Elemental) Primitive does – namely, no explanation. :p

I mean hey if we want to count Kento's wins, then out of him and Rintaro, he's the only one of the two who got his secondary Two Book Combo actually featured and acknowledged on printed merchandise via a Ganbarizing Card for Lamp Do Cerberus.

Rintaro didn't even get that for Lion Pegasus beyond the concept art mix and match thing on the website. I mean he has Daisenki... and Tategami... but that's besides the point!

I can't bring myself to like Den-O. I like the suits & the Imagin get some laughs out of me, but I just don't like watching the show.

It might have something to do with the plot & how I can't seem to wrap my head around it. Is Gaoh just there to promote the movie or are his parts integral to the show? I normally love time travel plots but this one just isn't clicking.

Den-O's main appeal is those laughs yeah, and also the characters. Den-O's movie is the first one that isn't set in alternate universe.

I'm sorry if this opinion ends up being the most controversial one here, but I feel this needs to be said.














































































































All of your opinions are valid.

HA! Only if I accept them as so!

I don't really get the appeal of lockseeds? They're fine, nothing much against them; but I don't get why so many people love them so much when they're just sort of okay to me. Even compared to some of the other electronic devices like Gaia Memories and Gashats which have a much more elegant shape, Lockseeds come off as having a pretty clunky shape. I dunno, just never got the love for this one

They're basically like the ultimate pinnacle of Kamen Rider gimmick items? They've got the satisfying variety of chunky physical buttons and unique shapes from Astro Switches combined with the robust electronics from the likes of Gaia Memories. I mean, I know what your favorite Rider show is, so I can definitely see why you in particular might prefer something a bit more understated, but Lock Seeds just kinda have a lot going on and it's all pretty neat? (I'm a fan of the pretty pictures of the weapons on the inside, for example.) Not to mention how fun the voice lines are. Lock Seeds may not be elegant, but they sure are decadent!

I mean, the thing is, I'm also a big fan of Gashats, one of the more insane gimmick items out there! It's just with Lockseeds, it's like... I dunno. They don't feel like anything to me? They don't feel cool or have much interesting to them. I think it says something that when they came to make a henshin pose with it, they couldn't figure out anything to do with it itself and just had Kouta whirl his hand about like a madman

Lockseeds are alright. They're probably one of my favorite fidget things in Rider. Just the opening of the lock by pressing down on the various styled buttons feels nice to me compared to other Rider toys. And then pressing the lock down again with ease before popping it open again.

That's mostly why I like em.

But Kouta had that whole thing where he just *slams* the lock down on the belt with his fist, and then Kaito had the whole thing where he spins around his finger all cool and confident! If anything, all the cool things about Gashats are just things that were cool about Lock Seeds first!

(Also, possible controversial opinion from me? I really love Kouta's mad flailing when he transforms. Feels so in character for him.)

Gashats always bothered me because for something that's supposed to be a video game, they look nothing like any form of real video game cartridge.

To me, they look like an upside down arcade cabinet. Buuut that's just me.

I still laugh a bit at how they decided to make Genm Corps home consoles look like. It just looks silly to me, it sticking out of the console like straight up like that.

http://64.media.tumblr.com/5c4cc25da...qk32ya_640.png

But why are they lockseeds though? Being fruit-themed makes sense because they come from a forest, but where does the padlock part come in?

And while we're talking about weird collectables, what is a progrise key even supposed to be? They're called keys but the only time one was used like a key was Shining Hopper's debut, and apparently cell phones in Zero-One's future look like them?

Side note, as silly as Rider phone devices have gotten, I do appreciate the shows at least being consistent about their use. I'm pretty sure every time someone was on a cell phone in Zero-One, it was a risephone, and the Build Phone and Gatriker seemed to get more screen time as phones than they did as bikes!

Progrise keys I feel are inspired by card keys used in companies and organizations.

The Progrise Keys always made sense to me yeah, keycards and access keys and whatnot. Maybe not perfectly analogous to any specific one, but clearly carries that idea and I like that they have their own identity like that.

... still trying to work out what animals had to do with anything, though!

Kouta's ridiculous pose is cool though! He's drawing a circle in the air, like how the cracks open in the sky before the fruit comes down! I guess that's my controlversial opinion.

It is!! It's fun, I just find it funny how it doesn't have anything to do with the lockseed

Despite obviously Ichigo is the oldest Rider, V3 design feels the most retro. Riderman and Stronger is next in the line