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Mesnick

01-23-2023 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShiShiLeo (Post 844498)

Yes, I agree a show can lose its novelty over time. Gaim to me still feels like one of the least Kamen Rider-y Kamen Rider shows, and that's not a knock against it, but an aspect that preserves its spot as a unique and worthwhile show even to this day.

For me, the most different from others are Hibiki, Saber, and, perhaps, Decade, because he:
https://64.media.tumblr.com/983813b4...vkpf6_1280.jpg

EpsilonX

01-23-2023 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matrixbeast (Post 844479)

For post Ex-Aid seasons:
Build is considered good. It has a strong story that paces itself well. Great characters and doesn't meander too much.
Zi-O his hot garbage. Having the same basic premise of Decade (Protagonist that's destined to be evil going around through various points in Heisei Rider history obtaining powers and learning lessons), and making the same mistakes of thinking a confusing plot means it's good. It disregards it's own rules it sets up and just has no idea what it's trying to do.
Zero-One is average. Despite the hype of being "THE FIRST REIWA SERIES!" it doesn't do anything special concerning the franchise. COVID also fucked things up a bit for it, but ultimately, it's a decent enough season.
Saber was Saber.
Revice was also trash, but with potential that they opted not to follow, making it a disappointment as well.

The shows between Ex-Aid and Geats, excluding Build, were honestly all let downs. Saber is the most mixed bag, as while I didn't find it enjoyable, others felt it picked up in the latter half.
Compared to what came before, well, it's hard to say. I feel Zero-One is on par with Wizard and Drive in terms of "Adequate", while Zi-O and Revice dance around Ghost's quality. I consider Build to be on par with Ex-Aid as a higher quality series.

Like I said, Saber is a mixed bag, and answers vary depending on who you ask, while the other 4's general consensus are what I listed.

Oh wow, I was under the impression that they were mostly good. This is actually the first time I've heard anything bad about Zero-One, so that's disappointing.

In terms of Zi-O and Decade, which do you find to be better? (Or...less bad?)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShiShiLeo (Post 844498)

I know we haven't really established what the "formula" is in the context of this discussion, but the main parts that made Fourze a standout unique series that holds up well is the heavy elements surrounding the High School environment (as opposed to more adult characters), the reliance on friendship and teamwork (as opposed to the lone hero), and a general positive tone (as opposed to remorseful or hopeful).

I still find Ryuki to be a novel series that holds up well. Yes, I agree a show can lose its novelty over time. Gaim to me still feels like one of the least Kamen Rider-y Kamen Rider shows, and that's not a knock against it, but an aspect that preserves its spot as a unique and worthwhile show even to this day.

One of the big ways I've heard Gaim changed the formula was moving away from the Monster-of-the-two-weeks-style storytelling and into something more serialized. The only pre-Gaim show I've seen was Kiva, though, so I'm not sure how true this is.

Mesnick

01-23-2023 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EpsilonX (Post 844511)

In terms of Zi-O and Decade, which do you find to be better? (Or...less bad?)

For me, Zi-O definitely, because he has a story, even if it is revealed very reluctantly. But in general, these two anniversary shows balance each other very well. What one succeeds at, the other fails at, and vice versa. Theoretically, their crossovers should have been the desired ideal, but in return they only puffed out the flaws even more.

Quote:

This is not entirely true, because there were serialized shows before him. Rather, Gaim was the first to intentionally introduce the +/- 10 episode arc formula. When at first the heroes fight only enemies, then they learn something that turns their world upside down, and new enemies appear, and sometimes even former ones become allies. After another shock, disassembly among themselves, finding out all the secrets, the final union and the final battle. There are variations, but in general most show riders now follow this formula. The era of Reiva has added more girls;)

Kiwami

01-23-2023 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EpsilonX (Post 844511)

Oh wow, I was under the impression that they were mostly good. This is actually the first time I've heard anything bad about Zero-One, so that's disappointing.

Zero-One's image has greatly suffered from "tHe jOB cOMpeTitiON aRC"- internet brainrot. Some people are way too obsessed with dunking on the show for like 9 episodes which were fun and serviceable but ultimately predictable and average at best.

Could they have done this better, maybe in a different way? Sure. But the show is really good still and those episodes are not the absolute blight they are often framed to be.

Also, I wouldn't agree with calling Revice "trash", at all. The show is awesome. Lots of good stuff in there. It kept on dragging for a few episodes near the finale, but that's all I can fault it for. Has super strong character moments and fun action.

Aside from Zi-O and Saber which I both did not like at all, I can recommend everything from the last couple of years.

Mesnick

01-23-2023 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiwami (Post 844514)

It always struck me that the "job competition" irritates people more than the fact that in the finale, instead of Aruto, they slipped us a completely different character and offered to accept that this is the person we watched the whole show.

Kiwami

01-23-2023 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick (Post 844517)

It did work for me and I liked it, but I have no ground to argue against this :lol

ShiShiLeo

01-23-2023 04:02 PM

I would argue that the use of monsters and/or their pacing is largely superficial to a show's uniqueness. It's no more meaningful than saying the hero doing a rider kick is formulaic.

Especially when viewed in retrospect, it is a show's overarching themes and ideals and sometimes morals that define it. The granular analyzation of individual episodes, endless comparison and ranking, or meta context, etc, unravels the simple entertainment of storytelling at the core of fiction. If you've walked away from a show entertained and perhaps gleaned whatever message the writer had for you, then you're good to go, novel or not.

Innovation is predicated on the idea that something is established. And things are often established because they are good and consistent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick (Post 844507)

For me, the most different from others are Hibiki, Saber, and, perhaps, Decade, because he:
https://64.media.tumblr.com/983813b4...vkpf6_1280.jpg

Yeah I almost forgot Hibiki. That one certainly has a few caveats considering it wasn't really a Kamen Rider show to begin with.

AkibaSilver

01-23-2023 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EpsilonX (Post 844478)

I don't think anyone ever stated in this conversation that a show was bad because it was formulaic - just that certain ones followed a formula and certain ones didn't. But if that's just context you're providing for the rest of your comment to make sense, then carry on.

Ah, sorry, yeah I was mainly using it for context. It's an argument I often see - "Gaim is good because it doesn't follow the formula!" and there's sort of the implicit assumption that inherently being different from a "formula" (i this case the 2-week victim / MOTW story with a second rider showing up around 16 episodes in) makes you better. If you're tired of that formula after 7 straight years of it, then yeah, it makes sense as a compliment, but if you're revisiting shows out of order, that shouldn't matter as much I think? (Fwiw, I do think in that context what made Gaim so new and shiny has worn off a little, and you can see some of the things people like to critique newer shows for creep up in the first arc. Introducing a deluge of Riders and new forms, setting up mysteries that get answered badly later on, scenes that make no sense...)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick (Post 844506)

The problem with Zi-O is that this show loves its predecessors more than its own story. If he has the choice to play with the guests or develop his story, Zi-O will always choose the former. And that's why I can't be mad at him and will always prefer Decade. This show is literally a fan of other rider shows.

I don't think this is true? Zi-O at its best uses the legacy characters to progress the stories of the main trio while also reminding us of why we loved the older Riders, and at its worst disregards them to focus on the newbies.

But yeah, I don't know where the impression Zero-One or Revice is the worst thing ever came from? Aside from the job arc and the, let's say, contentious ending, Zero-One seems pretty well liked, and Revice never seemed as reviled as Ghost or Saber did. Also, Saber's not even that bad.

Mesnick

01-23-2023 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AkibaSilver (Post 844524)

Episodes dedicated to Blade and Agito are literally a declaration of love for these seasons. And the episodes of Kiva, with minimal use of actors from the original show and no use of its plot at all, managed to produce an amazing parody. Maybe the riders of the second phase of Heisei really were less fortunate, but Zi-O definitely loves the first ten.
P.S. Plus, I'm willing to forgive the rider who blew up the Toei headquarters.
Revice was little scolded, but the aftertaste of the show left a bad one. The good parts were forgotten faster than what a "cool" villain Gyf was and how long Daiji suffered so stupidly.

EpsilonX

01-23-2023 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShiShiLeo (Post 844523)

I would argue that the use of monsters and/or their pacing is largely superficial to a show's uniqueness. It's no more meaningful than saying the hero doing a rider kick is formulaic.

I think I see where you're coming from, but I think the structure of how the story is told is actually a substantial part of fiction. A serialized story with one large, overarching conflict told over the course of multiple episodes will be enjoyed very differently from a series where each episode presents a monster battle that is resolved by the end of the episode. I'm not saying that one is necessarily better than the other, but they're different.

Quote:

Especially when viewed in retrospect, it is a show's overarching themes and ideals and sometimes morals that define it. The granular analyzation of individual episodes, endless comparison and ranking, or meta context, etc, unravels the simple entertainment of storytelling at the core of fiction. If you've walked away from a show entertained and perhaps gleaned whatever message the writer had for you, then you're good to go, novel or not.

Interesting. It sounds like you're saying that what I described above is more of a by-product of the larger goal of the story? Because I could agree with that. The only time the format of something like Kamen Rider will change is when the overall goal of Kamen Rider changes, or perhaps the theme of one particular season demands the story to be told in a different way. Changing the format for the sake of changing the format is...surface-level, for lack of coming up with a better term at the moment.

Quote:

Innovation is predicated on the idea that something is established. And things are often established because they are good and consistent.

But unfortunately, people eventually get bored of "good and consistent" and want "new and exciting." That's why, much to my dismay, emo will never be the dominant subculture in the US again :cry

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