I agree that would've been cool and all but that always seemed extraordinarily flimsy as a major complaint. You could say the same thing about EVERY Kamen Rider show. Of course he saves the Gate every time, he's the protagonist. That's what he does. Nevermind that the one time he doesn't save one, it's f***ing Mayu, so the show basically did exactly what you wanted.

And I still haven't seen a Rider as three-dimensional as Haruto since Wizard. But I guess because he doesn't always show emotion on his face he must've been bland.

Not every rider has to be able to save someone every time. Kotaro wasn't able to save Nobuhiko from becoming Shadow Moon. If the story needs a loss to happen to advanced, it should happen, and Wizard definitely needed that. It also doesn't help that Haruto's entire point for being Wizard was for Kiyomi and not only did she do absolutely nothing but sit in the background like wallpaper and stare at a crystal ball, but was barely even on screen except for when the plot needed her to be in peril for Haruto to save.

The lack of emotion isn't the problem, it's that he had no development. He was the same in the final episode that he was in the first. He didn't have any backstory outside of one moment in one episode with his soccer friend.

Kota gave up his dancing to be a rider. He lost Mai, he lost his best friend, and he lost his humanity.

Shinnosuke had his partner injured during the Global Freeze. He has his relationship with police girl. It may not be much, but it is far more than what Haruto had.

Don't care about Ghost.

That’s not the problem I have with it. Of course the hero wins every time, or like 99% of the time, that’s not what made it repetitive. What made it repetitive was the constant build-up from the Phantoms and/or the people themselves which started to lose any meaning as soon as it became clear that the worst case would never happen.

It did? The show all about holding onto hope needed an episode where somebody actually loses hope? Again, there's definitely a lot of potential there, and I don't mean to say I disagree with you about that, but it's not what I would call a necessity.

You're also brushing off all the character stuff with Koyomi throughout the show, and of course she's also exactly the kind of loss you're talking about. Haruto spends the whole final arc talking about how he's definitely for sure going to save Koyomi, and then he can't.

And that's just flatly bulls***. A bunch of the episodes in Wizard were devoted to exploring Haruto's past. The flashbacks throughout the show. The episodes where he gets Flame Dragon. The ones with his old teacher. The aforementioned soccer ones. Haruto is one of the more fleshed out protagonists in Rider and the show was always very distinctly his story. He absolutely has development, too. Even just with Koyomi in the end, that's a big moment for him because he's forced to accept the loss of the single most important person in his life. Haruto has some pretty crippling self-worth issues and he basically defines his entire life by A. being Wizard and B. protecting Koyomi, so it's a HUGE deal for him to move on. There's all sorts of other bits throughout the show too. Haruto was a very unique and relatively subtle main character and I refuse to accept he was anything but a strength for Wizard.

I guess? This is getting into the concept of "stakes" I've never understood but, again, isn't that true of every other Rider show? They're always trying to convince you the whole world's in danger but, outside of Blade and Gaim, how often does stuff ever actually get that far?

I think your real problem here is simply that you didn't find the stories the show was telling very interesting, which, again, I do get, even though I'm getting pretty heated about this.

I guess Ghost isn't the only show I'm unnecessarily defensive of... :(

Not true actually. I mean yeah the main plot was garbage, that's not up for debate, but I did enjoy the weekly plots a lot, mostly because I like Wizard's silly gang. I don't find them to be as annoying as most people around here do.

I can remember a lot of those little plots, and that's saying something since I watched Wizard once like two and a half years ago.

The problem for me was when we got to see the Phantoms plotting stuff, because I knew it was all a waste since these useless idiots would never accomplish anything. Same when the whole "trying to make the Gate despair"-thing started, I knew they would fall for it, but it wouldn’t happen.

There were simply too many recurring elements wasted on something we, the audience, knew would never happen. That's what bored me.

I don’t question a Rider winning against the odds in almost every circumstance, but other shows don’t waste so much time with useless crap to set this stuff up. Like, OOO has a very similar setup with the Yummies who are able to possess or feed off of people’s energy, but for one it wasn’t always the case, different Yummies form different Greeed acted differently, and if it did happen there was no set form every single one had to go through.

With Wizard it was always: A short moment where the Gate is noticed by the bad guys, then a scene with Medusa and/or Phoenix talking about pointless stuff which then results in one of them introducing this week’s Phantom, then they brief it, then it goes after the Gate, fails, retreats, Wizard & co. take the Gate in, Phantom tries again, gets the Gate to the point of absolute despair, Wizard shows up and saves the day.

That’s what I hated, this exact formula repeating itself over and over and over again. With some small alterations here and there to be fair, but it was still so obvious that I couldn’t help but noticing it every time it happened. Other Rider shows have similar setups, no question about that, but with Wizard I noticed it in a negative way rather quickly and that bothered me.

Don't tempt me now! :p

That's absolutely a fair point, but I personally feel, much like Kuuga, the repetitive villain plans are just a vehicle to tell way less repetitive stories about the main characters and the VotW. There's generally more to an episode than just what the Phantoms are up to.

I'd just like to say that this is a 50 episode plot that banks on the audience caring about a character that most viewers I've come across were apathetic to at best.

You have to bear in mind that the only major loss was the character that spent most scenes with a thousand yard stare, which is why it didn't have the emotional impact that the Mages' own personal stories had. The kid and his bike or the man and his child meant a lot more because, while they didn't have as much time to develop, you felt the emotion that they all exhibited.

Your defenses for Wizard aren't wrong. However, you're arguing on the basis that everyone can set aside the problems and look at the silver lining and enjoy everything that is enjoyable about it, but it's just not going to happen. Haruto comes off as bland because he's indifferent to most actions of the supporting cast, his interest in the character of the week are based simply on the fact that a Phantom is after them, and his emotional range is really weak except when it affects himself or Koyomi. Koyomi herself spends most of the series doing nothing, really, and is absent for the other half beyond a few scenes of her just sitting around, and Beast might as well be off in his own universe for how relevant he is. The villains are bland, with most people's favorite, Phoenix, just being a generic angry guy, and the endgame of the series, while a highlight, comes in too late for most people to cut the show some slack.

You're not telling me anything I don't know. And it isn't the silver lining I'm looking at, it's the whole cloud. These aren't minor parts of the show I'm bringing up. My defenses may be based on focusing on the positives, but everybody else's... offenses(?), are based on accentuating the negatives, too. That's sort of how having an opinion works. It's not really something I can help.

But none of that is entirely accurate. Saying his interest in the VotW is based "simply on the fact that a Phantom is after them" is like saying Shoutarou and Phillip "simply care about the VotW because they're their client that week". That's true, yeah, but it's an oversimplification.

And his emotional range is not weak! This is what I mean about him being subtle. He's got a lot of angst he keeps buried under the surface. That's only when it comes to him or Koyomi, yeah, but that's hardly a problem when so much of the show is focused on him to begin with. Even beyond that he flips between his three basic moods of "sarcastic a**hole", "slacker", and "determined hero" throughout every episode. There's a lot going on with him and I'm baffled nobody but me can see it. He's, at his absolute worst, another Kamen Rider lead.

Yes, she absolutely is absent a lot of the time. This is a problem with Wizard. I will not deny this because it's a fact. What I will deny is that when she is around, she's doing nothing. There are episodes throughout the show where she's very central and she's also extremely in focus throughout those last 8-ish episodes.

For one, he's a foil to Haruto, and extremely relevant in that respect. Two, his disconnect from the events of the show is something of a plot point. The White Wizard is always brushing him off as insignificant and it bites him in the a** when Beast is actually the one to stop his evil plan in the end.

I don't really care.

No, it's definitely the silver lining.
Your primary argument is basically taking argument A and telling them how their view is wrong or how something is misinterpreted on their part.

It can be helped. Much like how I'm not trying to smack down everyone who liked Kuuga or Decade, or disliked Blade or Gekiranger.

Except it is true. Shotarou showed concern over what was going down in his city, so even if they weren't clients, because it was terror being caused to someone in the place that he loved, he'd still do what he could.

It didn't feel like Haruto had any connection to the gates. Yes, he would help them with their woes, but he'd clean his hands of them just as quickly once the threat was out of the way.

Perhaps the reason no one but you can see it is because you're injecting what you believe Haruto is feeling?

I'm not looking for fucking Batman and constantly brooding, and I'm not looking for Shinji constantly wearing his emotions on his sleeves. But Godai, Eiji, and Kouta all did the whole angst thing and made it clear that they were actually feeling it while subtly hiding it from the others. Eiji and Godai were especially good at it, both concealing it for quite a while and, unlike Kouta, not receiving constant flashbacks to their true feelings on the matter (Eiji being unable to save that one black girl notwithstanding, but that could easily be construed as his resolution to not lose anyone again).

Haruto felt like a complete brick. His constant apathy did nothing to convince me that he was feeling anything other than indifference, annoyance, or anger.
The easy connection is that he's using his apathy as a defense mechanism to hide his real feelings. But I just never felt that way. Perhaps I wasn't paying attention to the right cues. Dunno.

I'm not saying Koyomi is irrelevant. That statement was hyperbole. It was meant to imply that her relevance just isn't felt for so long. Sorry. I just phrased that particular sentence really, really poorly.

For me, it was always just a matter of pay off. Koyomi was so lifeless, so dull, and just so uninteresting that I just never felt the emotional weight they wanted me to feel. The ring maker would have elicited a lot more of a response from me should something happen to him, and I don't even remember his name.

I guess my key issue (Or should I say, ring issue*) with Koyomi is that I just...Feel nothing concerning her. Her actions don't bring up any memories outside of the endgame

*Crappy pun that doesn't even make sense...Keys are a Sentai thing. I just said key and pictured a transformation sequence...Disregard the pun (I'm leaving it in because I typed this up before thinking about just removing it so now I'm attached)

This one was also hyperbole, just because I was getting tired of the post and didn't feel like elaborating on Beast. :lol
I know he's important to the show. His energetic nature makes him a fine foil for Haruto, his contributions to the ending were big, and his nature makes him an entertaining addition to a dry cast (Beyond the kid with no fashion sense).
But the disconnect is still a problem since the show isn't hinting at any bigger purpose for him, and I don't recall Chimera saying much about it until the end (It's been a while, could be wrong).

I mean, yeah... Isn't that how arguing works? If I thought somebody was 100% correct about everything I wouldn't have much to say to them.

I can't exactly start drawn-out arguments/dumpster fires about how awesome Blade is or how Toei totally screwed Hibiki over, you know? :o

Am I really coming off that aggressive? :confused:

It's not like I don't like you guys or anything. I just get really opinionated when I feel shows aren't getting a fair shake. You'll note I don't get set off nearly as bad when people tout Gaim as being the best show ever, because I'm happy they feel that way. But negativity makes me negative. If it's really such a problem I can stop.