But most people will.

And in real life, this is tantamount to murder, whatever Nolan's Batman says there. Everywhere, from Sweden to North Korea. So even if it is not prohibited by the rules of DGP, riders are still people, which means that not everyone is capable of killing, even if it is profitable.

Here, however, the situation is quite different. Neon did not deceive Gamemaster, but her fellow riders. And not for the sake of mutual benefit, but for the sake of personal victory.


So after all, we are talking about DGP, which accept desires for resurrection and destruction. Neon could wish for new parents, or change the nature of the current ones, or turn them into cats, and it would come true. I meant that her desire is not directly related to the family, even if it is caused by family problems. So she sees the source of her happiness in love, and not in the family.

You see, most people are kind. And most people do good deeds, if it does not harm them in any way. Also, by your logic, would a billionaire who takes half a minute to donate 0.0001% of his income to charity be more heroic than a firefighter or a person who all day feeds the homeless just because he helps more people? But everyone has different opportunities. Therefore, for me, a hero is exactly the one who does good outside of his comfort zone.

I agree here. Heroism is good deeds, but not every good deed is heroic. The difference between our positions is that you have set a very low bar for being called a hero.


No, I'm just saying that these reasons exist. And without eliminating them from the haters also will not get rid of.

And there are reasons for this too. Again, morally upright means less than bad deeds.

Can anyone help me on how to create a chef rider series? Gotta think on an Iron Chef/Shokugeki/Toriko scale!

Happy 30th birthday Kamen Rider ZO!

Truly fantastic movie

And shame on anyone who does not distinguish him from J.

Late reply..

I mentioned Akira Date/Birth there.... My point there is also about how from examples above, because Emu bruised Kiriya or Keiwa attacked Ace doesn't mean that Emu is a violent friend or that Keiwa is a Rider attacker (I mean regardless of the intention of being mutual benefit, there are those who genuinely will pull drastic measures to achieve it or just naturally vulgar person, arguments also can be made too here about them avoiding pulling that method). Yeah she did something wrong there (and would it be wrong for Birth to have OOO get ganged on by Greeed?), to not let themselves die/suffer, but her and Birth also shouldn't be spun as actual terrible snake/conspirer.

Actually it'd take quite a lot to make her resort to that, the missions being forced, and escalating terms and conditions in high risk when losing that impacts whole life later, likely due to the DGP not getting actual entertainment. She has different position (and it's headcanon to think it's chosen path, the circumstances aren't known yet) and it should be considered when any other Riders are placed in her position, and... outside of that position, people like Daichi pulls those tactics only because he can. General example is that, someone who is normally against killing but is forced to at few occassion due to circumstances shouldn't be viewed as murder-happy or hypocritical.

Heroism (and morality in general) comes in spectrums. Yeah the person who all day feeds the homeless may be more heroic (firefighter and other occupations like soldiers, doctors, cops, etc. depends on the person, like I said before), but don't invalidate the others, there can be multiple heroes. And people aren't immediately shitty pos (morally grey to evil) for failing and did wrong once in a while (not recurring). Heroes shouldn't be viewed as something above human, they're still humans with needs and limits too and shouldn't be pushed past the point any other reasonable human would be. Anyone has capacity for good and bad, but what differentiates is looking at them as a whole and considering context.

For some reason regarding fiction people seem to only consider murder as a bad thing? (can be used to justify villains too as doing nothing wrong) There are much more bad things that can be done including daily and people being good or bad also isn't determined by the outcomes of their actions (which you seem to be determined if it'd kill someone or not/make someone survive). There can be various other bad things humans can do that doesn't involve murder (ranging from overlooked everyday stuff to heinous crimes) like sexual harassing, extorting, thievery, robbing, malicious slandering, deliberately ignoring crisis (apathy, not because they can't help), abuse (physical/verbal/control), objectification/dehumanization of someone (can be racism, or even viewing love interest as mere conquest), vandalizing, doxxing, physical or psychological torture, worker exploitation, etc.

There's a difference between someone's who's actually good, or someone who's just harmless, not having the power/ability to act on their desires (but already had warped mindset). There can be varying reasons for someone to do that, it's not always because it's the right thing to do. It can be also due to (also can be combined with being harmless above) wanting a reward, avoiding a punishment, or boosting their reputation. And really people can opt to not murder or do other bad things because it's in their best interest or counter-productive to their plan, not due to genuine standards. Which may get dismissed only due to the outcomes (depicting their claims as tsunderes for this).

I just really don't want to have the "reason" arguments promoted and validated because it can be used to, for reverse reason, absolve villains of any wrong they do; where there are people who justify villains as soon as they give a reason for their horrible actions, which have them being painted as not that bad or even"the true hero". Reasons (like backstory or such) don't elevate their morality. To condemn a hero for being hated because "there's a reason", sounds similar in treating the haters are completely blameless and right (thus there's someone else being wrong, in which your words "deserve it" sounds like those heroes themselves).

[QUOTE=DreadBringer;849746]I mentioned Akira Date/Birth there...


I don't remember the events of OOO very well, but in the Date situation, he used to yell at Eiji to get out of the line of fire before or right after the shot. It seems to me that there was more of a story about the fact that two strangers cannot work together, and there was no particular desire initially. As for the danger for Eiji, Date did not know him as a person + initially had a negative impression after the events before the show. And Neon knows Keiwa much better and even defended him in front of Saya. Which at least shows that for the sake of her desire she is ready to go to great lengths. And one more difference: Date is a doctor. If he seriously harmed Eiji, he would have cured him himself.

The difference is that I don't consider all good deeds to be heroic. And I do not see heroes above ordinary people, only their actions. No one can be a hero 24/7, it's important to do the right thing at the right time.

Nicotine is more addictive than most illicit drugs, yet completely legal. The same goes for your examples. But still, in the case of murder, there is a difference. The victims of all the examples you have given can recover. Not all and not always, but they can. The resurrection from the dead is from the realm of fantasy and is impossible in real life. In the world of DHP, it's most likely doable, but it can still be hard for people (and most players are just regular people) to accept.


That is why you should not write down all good people as heroes, so as not to be disappointed later. But since we cannot read other people's thoughts, it remains to be judged by actions.

My position is that the causes must be taken into account in order to be eliminated. Punishment for bad deeds must follow and its severity must be determined by those whose eyes are not blurred. Here, perhaps, a strong problem in our different backgrounds. There are no jury trials in my country, which means that the attempts of criminals to play on feelings are more of a fantasy for me. All indulgences that they can receive depend on specific, predetermined circumstances. But I believe it is possible.

I cannot agree here. If a person's father is a thief, his mother is a thief, all his friends are thieves and the most watched movie is "Ocean's 11", then shouldn't this be taken into account? That is, he, of course, heard that stealing is bad from some strangers who did nothing good for him. Therefore, simply punishment is clearly not enough here, a person needs to be explained why this is wrong. And be prepared that he will not understand and appreciate it.

Why "not knowing someone that well" should diminish this? As they're still people with human rights that deserve to be cared for, not only exclusively closed ones. And I mean the beatdown Eiji got by some Greeeds still canonically happened, and after that Date temporarily left the show (it's ep. 38) to return in ep. 46 later as Proto Birth. I mean if you'd think Eiji was fine afterwards, then so does Keiwa which you seem to exaggerate the consequences of the trap. And I guess you'd still depict her as "go to great lengths" for her desire because as for below, you seem to dismiss predicaments that isn't death, cuz she takes defeat well but this one has more consequence.

Yeah, they may can recover, but this shouldn't be used to dismiss or downplay those bad things done in that examples, allowing them to keep happening. It's actually a callous outlook, especially if to dismiss those bad things, or what those people are going through due to this, victim blaming happens to depict them as being weak or snowflakes or such. Something being good or bad isn't determined by its outcome. It's how I value those caring not only to save lives but also help others in any way. a.k.a "protecting smiles".

I mean why do you seem to lump those harmless people I mentioned as "good people"? They'd be neutral at best, but already suspicious if they already have warped mindset.

There can be varying reasons of why heroes can get bad publicity, but there are no bad deeds in cases of them getting slandered by bad guys or hated for something beyond their control.

As you said there, it's still something wrong and has to be corrected by explaining it to them. Thus he'd be someone bad at that time (if he regularly steals, and never perform any something good), and then the next outcome will determine (because people's alignment can change; nice guys can turn bad like Yuji or Aruto, assholes can become better like Takumi, etc.); If he'd understand and not repeat it, then he'd get redeemed. If he doesn't, then it'd reaffirm and solidify that he's bad. This is also used to justify villains when they have reasons like parents upbringing or such, but this just feels like pulling double standard, it's ok for named characters to do that, but not for those nameless backstory characters to do that. There's a case of obliviously evil, and for KR, it's something more severe, but there's Parado who doesn't know the difference between lives in game and real life.

Because Date thinks Eiji is a rich big guy who will be saved by his daddy as soon as something bad happens to him. And at the expense of rights, I repeat once again: he warned when he shot. And, speaking of "basic human rights", Brave completely ignores them in relation to Asakura in their special.

Both Eiji and Keiwa are altruistic characters who, even if something is wrong with them, will not say it. Therefore, these actions characterize Date and Neon. For Date in the early stages, Agee is an obnoxious person from the past who prevents Date from earning a cure. For Neon Keiwa, this is a close friend whom she even admires, but at the same time, whom she is ready to harm in order to win and fulfill her desire. There is no contradiction in Date's actions, while Neon makes a choice and makes it selfishly.

I caught up with Geats and now I can confidently say that she goes to all this for the sake of fulfilling the desire laid in her by her father, who has lost the ability to love. So in fact it is not even her desire.

Just as I was praising the English dub of Ultraman Z elsewhere I think Kamen Rider Geats or Saber would be the perfect show to do an English dub if Toei ever decides they wanna try copying the success of Ultraman Z's overseas efforts.

Who's the better Glare2? Chirami or Beroba?

And what if Tsumuri becomes a Rider herself with the Vision Driver?