That is why we in the USSR acted honestly and declared war criminals not only enemy heroes, but also our own.

Like Blade, only there is more diversity.

Niram implied that Ace isn't quite as devoted to supporting the Ukiyo family as he could be. Everything else would be speculation and headcanons until we see or hear otherwise.

People who don't receive the familial love they need usually look for it in others instead. Like how Gou sees his honorary big bro Shinnosuke as the male role model that Banno wasn't, same for Rintarou to Ogami and Makoto to Ryu. Huh, this is surprisingly common for Secondaries. It's never too late to be a parent or older sibling to somebody who needs one.

Rather, the DGP has problems with exclusivity, as they realize that altruists won't provide the same level of sadistic entertainment for their competitive deadly game.

I don't remember, but I believe. Hmm, it's strange that the show just threw it in, left it undeveloped. Especially, considering the crossover with Revice, the most family rider. Apparently, a fragment of the plot line cut from the script. Or we are waiting for Ace's family showdown on the eve of the final.

There was this little bit at the end of Wizard.

Just watched a special about PunkJack and his friend "Retired" clearly did a good job. Yes, and Dapan, most likely, too, although I think that in his case, the audience hastened to turn the gloomy teenager into the horseman of the Apocalypse. As Tsumuri said, dropped out players can still find new dreams.
For example, Morio instead of avoiding prison will want to get out of it as soon as possible.

Not sure how controversial this will be, but I wouldn’t mind getting less V-Cinemas since I feel like a lot of them are wholly unnecessary (Gaim/Build) and kinda limit what they can do in the main show. What I mean by that second point is that having V-Cinemas be guarantee every year means that most of the immediate side Riders have to be fine (alive/still have their powers) in order for them to have their special spin-off at the end of the show (especially since most V-cinemas they day take place post series).

Actually, Saber proved not so long ago that in the case of V-cinema, quality is more important than quantity. But still, the survival of the riders is not necessary for them, which is proved by the same Gaim. By and large, I would say that V-cinema should be removed if there is a good idea, and not in order to sell a new toy.

I'm only bringing this up to counter against the view of how all Riders are bad (of which it does happen here shortly after), and don't like the fanaticism view to Keiwa here to think good or bad is decided if you're on the same page of Keiwa or not, which also got Kekera, before his true colors are shown, praised for supporting him thus "the one who appreciates goodness". But overall, being good isn't perfect by itself, flaws aren't only doing bad things like selfish side/moments, his naivety or gullible nature is his flaw, but ofc many seem to treat that as a part of goodness instead of a flaw one should work around (thinking that not being naive means not being good anymore). Also while every Riders aren't morally perfect, don't like that other Riders showing that are given different reaction - more demonized like with Neon desperately performing her last DezaStar mission being used to frame her as a piece of shit like others, even though it's forced and had high stakes (anything it takes to make her commit that, as she usually hates throwing others under the bus).

You're basically describing the exact examples of how he fares being left out with Ninja here....

This one doesn't feel like people's personal taste though that, even those who like good people also don't think they're strong or badass. This just feels like the stereotype belief people holds that is widespread, regardless of liking or hating them. Well in general it's common that the heroes are bashed for their weakness if they had failure, but if villain has failure, the complaint goes to the writing instead for giving them the short end of the stick.

You have it for Geats, Sh Ranger has it for Gaim, Kurona (and MKDremare) has it for Faiz, etc. it seems to be just varying personal preference to deem certain shows as too unbearable. Also there can be some criterias of considering a show to have no light, it can be also about if those unyielding good characters are made purposely ineffectual and useless, as if purposely being a satire and/or deconstruction, like being idiot losers whose belief is seen as a joke, crushing their ideals in the face of cruel reality, etc. which someone like Keitaro can feel like that. It'd be my problem for not series-specific, but kinda franchise wide for KR, tbh, like many medias to make good being pathetic underdogs, it can look unappealing for people to discourage it instead due to it being depicted badly.... but my enjoyment would be much more limited if it only revolves around this.

Ace now wanting to make a world where everyone is happy doesn't mean that he wasn't genuine in helping others before though, don't want for him wanting to meet his mother to be shat on only because he's not using his wish like Keiwa or such, because there's nothing wrong for someone to want things for themselves. Ace's problem was that he can be ruthless like his strategies on the first DGP, but his help to others is genuine, it doesn't need to have the main goal of making everyone happy for that.

The Keiwa and Michinaga part though, I wouldn't want for Michinaga to be lumped as genuinely wanting to help too (even though he has good intentions), maybe at least at that time. I think both at that time showcases the difference between protect vs destroy. Keiwa knows that the threat is still around and he should prevent the present people getting hurt or other kind of damages. While Michinaga has been established as someone who hates anything related to DGP, including the Riders, thus his reason to join is to clean up the DGP's remains in Beroba and the Jamatos, currently Michinaga's main target is the deserving one.

Though people like Yuusuke would count, by technicality, some other morally upright main Riders like Shinji or Ryotaro, also isn't an idealized hero, tbh, because they suffers from flaws and weakness that can hinder them, which are something they have to conquer. But speaking about moral strictly, as weaknesses aside they're equally upright, well those are straight heroes, and Geats still has that too.

And as you bring up Squid Game there, I also gotta say that, someone like Ali is also morally white (approved as pure good too) - it is possible for a morally white person to unwillingly go against his beliefs and doing something wrong due to certain circumstances, like having limits when it comes to certain enemy like Ali punishing his boss. But yeah, one single/few wrongdoings won't make those kind of people morally grey, and oftentimes, a morally white character will be filled with remorse when they failed to adhere to their moral principles (this is also still used as a praise for their moral standings). Guess want to state that it's not only lighthearted shows that can have straight heroes, of which perhaps their can be overlooked in those shows only because no hard consequences.

Having a black and white view to immediately brand people as piece of shits for showing human error is a harsh appraisal, and not being good either. The kind of people who have this mindset are depicted as well-intentioned extremist villains in the fiction, such as Stain from MHA, if you'd think that the heroes that don't live up to your expectations (for even small things that feel wrong to you) can be lumped with actual bad people and deserve to be eliminated or purged (I mean if you think that those who "tolerate" them are being "too nice")... I kinda thought at first Kekera would be this kind of villain, if he's made bad, but actually it's a different one.

No just because someone has good intentions, it doesn't make them a good person. Actions first before characterization (though they also). Since joining the Jamatos, he has been doing whatever it takes, without caring much about the victims, only caring about the ends ("for the greater good") or at best, statistics ("the many") - that'd be a bad guy, well-intentioned extremist kind, many are like that in media, and other than that he was limited to showing some little standards. While it's not 100% evil, that'd fit anti-villain at best. He may be on the path for change now but below...

People's alignment can change, so someone having some good traits shouldn't be necessarily considered a good person overall, they won't be good unless they act on it, and if they keep it while being bad it'd be still only redeeming traits. While Keiwa was straight up good before, now he had heel turn, so regardless of what he did before, he is currently a bad guy (not 100% bad obviously), but he'd be turn good again if he had his redemption.

From here, they seems to be the type who measure heroism by how much suffering they get, as it seems that they have the belief of humans being fundamentally good, but it's used to downplay the good deeds if it doesn't torture themselves and make heroes stand out (yeah it often happens to make heroes stand out, and some did it to the point of dehumanizing them).

And here "pieces of shit" and "human errors"? It seems that you are again talking about some kind of general case, tying it to the topic. I literally wrote that I would not want to have such people next to me. These are deceivers, traitors, those who believe that a difficult situation is an excuse for morally controversial decisions. Would you like to? Being intimate with a person who lies about a sick child, when in fact he does not have enough money to go to a resort? No, you wouldn't. Moreover, even if he told the truth, you would no doubt lend him a resort, then after revealing the lie, you would still hasten to move away. Simply because you have lost confidence in him. So how, then, does the condescending attitude towards such behavior of characters differ from the same passion for villains? If I do not forgive such behavior to my brother, friend, colleague, then why should I put up with this in a fictional character? I didn?t call anyone ?pieces of shit?, but I?m not going to pretend that shitty deeds don`t stink either.
Plus, what kind of nonsense about elimination and purge? When I wrote about not wanting to be next to me, I meant moving away from them myself, because it’s easier that way. At this point, I should ask what made you think otherwise.
And about the claim, which is not a claim, but rather a remark that people vaguely imagine communicating with someone similar to Ace in real life. Because in fact, they would hate him after the slightest deceit. Again, remember all those who have deceived you with serious consequences. How do you feel about them? Did none of them have a good reason? Since we mentioned shit, it's like in the case of Amber Heard and Guardians of the Galaxy 2. In both cases, they shit in bed, but in the first, the audience is outraged, and in the second, they laugh and applaud. Because it's not real, which means it can't happen to them. As well as lovers of villains never put themselves in the place of their possible victims.
And about human error. A error is something that is done by accident or is recognized as wrong. One of the strongest arguments in favor of the reformed Gai Amatsu was that he apologized. Ace never apologized for anything, which means he thinks his actions are right. Moreover, these actions are considered right in the universe, because, although they do not directly admit it, other riders look up to Geats as the most experienced and successful player. So, until the show says otherwise (directly or indirectly), it still broadcasts the message: "Deception is the way to success." And in most cases, this idea is as far from the truth as possible, which I wrote above.

If W were being filmed now, Mick would be a rider.

Funny you mention W, because I was just thinking the other day how I hope we get a season 2 of the anime, and how that'd likely be when the Fang alt forms get animated, and it got me thinking about how if W was done today he'd basically be Build.

Now I don't dislike Build's base design, but his other forms really highlight how gratuitous Rider gets. W had barely noticeable changes between his half form swaps. Literally just the trim and colours, and it worked very well and was quite classy. Build is what W avoided being, which is to say every half having its own physical differences that just get goofier, ugly, and clash harder with each other. There's no combo of W that looks bad, because the colours are smartly contrasted and his physical design changes very little.

Even Xtreme, which I'm not the hugest fan of, is a pretty restrained take on the W design whilst still embellishing it. Contrast with Builds never-ending supply of super and final forms, it's a very efficient design that doesn't just do "base design but x10."

I was really liking how Reiwa was kind of bringing that back, with Zero Two and Ultimate Revice being designs that are more revamps of the base form rather than just overdetailing the whole thing with more and more rubber bits hanging off. But then those final forms hardly matter when the real final form of every Reiwa Rider is just the base form with a different belt trinket, which I'm really hoping Geats doesn't do but it probably will.

I will not argue, but at the same time, I perceive the ugliness of the Build forms, as well as their huge number, as something in line with the lore. Sento is a brilliant scientist, Evolto is a crazy alien. They are techies who have gone crazy and have no sense of beauty.
As for the anime, I think we need an anime series based on Shinobi.

Y’know I’ve never really understood the Takatora/Zangetsu hype in Gaim, I always found him the least interesting of the main 4 Riders.

As the #1 Takatora simp, I find him interesting because he has such a different outlook on the whole situation from the kids. He's so busy with his noblesse oblige, the idea that because he has power he must take it upon himself to save the world, but the power also gives him the right to decide what must be done, it's a nice change of pace. Combine that with his arc of everyone he loves clowning on him, and some of the best suits in the franchise, and he's great.

He just contrasts well with the highly emotional, self-interested main cast. He's ultimately a business man doing his job, which he believes is right, and he's just kind of cool and calculating in that regard. He was the series adult among a group of children.

I did always find it amusing that he counts as one of the main four despite being totally out of their league and hardly appearing (at least in his default form) that much as a Rider.

He also looks amazing so there's that.

On the subject of W, I've really come to appreciate how that show handles its form changes over time. All of W's forms have distinct powers that make them feel useful and memorable. Even with upgrades like FangJoker and Xtreme they have aspects that make it so they never fully eclipse the earlier forms. I can tell you what powers all of W's forms have but I couldn't even NAME every best match in Build, let alone tell you what they do! I don't think any other Rider show handles its forms this well to be honest! Maybe Kuuga?

I'd put Den-O in that conversation, too.

You're not wrong... related it's still kind of weird to me we didn't get a Nazca v-cinema. I'm not super mad about it, but I feel like having it star Yukie, or something would've been smart to keep Kirihiko dead would've been smart.

Not sure if it counts as controversial, but between the 2 more adult oriented Rider shows, I overall enjoyed Amazons (both seasons) more than Black Sun.

..

It's funny cause after Black Sun I can't help but look at the two and think of how Amazons feels like what people think a darker take on Kamen Rider would be while Black Sun is what a darker take on Kamen Rider actually is.

To be honest, the darker look for me is both Shin's films and maybe Inoue's First and Next. The Amazons and the Black Sun for me are more likely to exploit shock content, like the recent Winnie the Pooh slasher. Actually, that's why I consider them not so much adults as teenage shows.

I thought Drive handled it pretty well, with each form having some sort of drawback.

On the other hand, Kiva, Ghost, and Ex-Aid were awful at this.

I haven't seen Black Sun yet, but Amazons felt at times like edgy teens trying to be "mature." I still enjoyed it, however.

My main takeaway was that I didn't like either very much. Too dark and edgy for me.

For Amazons, sure. For Black Sun, though? It's very grounded and gets violent, but there's a legit message behind it.

It's telling a story with very distinct subtext that Kamen Rider has kinda always had in the past, only now updated to modern times. Individuality isn't a sin, it's okay to be different, the government can't do its job so long as it brings in corruption, authority isn't as influential as it thinks it is, nothing will change unless we stand up against injustice, etc.

Amazons did have some stuff there. Amazons were once people and these people deserve to live because they've been dealt an unfortunate hand and are being treated as monsters as a result. The way Haruka and Jin also seem to swap personalities with the wild, uncontrollable one gaining balance and a clear mindset while his "mentor" became more deranged and single-minded. How men can become monsters and vice versa.

That said, it leans so hard into the edginess. Lotta blood. Lotta gore. The dull color filter over everything. S2 onwards only ramping all that up to uncomfortable degrees in ways, even if I do like how bittersweet S2 was. The director (Or writer, can't remember which) condemning modern rider for being too geared to kids only to churn Amazons out just screams overly-edgy.

Amazons is definitely a "This feels geared towards older teens"-feeling sort of series.

Black Sun, and Shin Kamen Rider imo, feel more geared towards older fans who get what Kamen Rider's all about while also being love letters to their source in one way or another.

It was producer Shirakura who thought modern Rider lost its edge. Honestly my only beef with Black Sun is the ending, it honestly soured the whole thing for me.

I personally liked how bleak the ending was. Granted I like when stories don't end with clear happy endings and aren't afraid to be serious and be like "This problem isn't magically fixed and it would be for a long time".

Which, I think, could be passed without tearing off heads.


Surprising, because the whole topic of the Dark Sun is full of accusations that he did not give a damn about the original source. And at the expense of earthiness and realism: the minister was killed when he peed on the flowers left for the murdered boy? This is both unrealistic and turns a corrupt politician into a caricature villain who just enjoys doing nasty things.

It's almost like his character was depicted since his youth to be a cowardly, pig-headed, pompous slimeball who only gets into power through familial connections and manipulation and has no right to be there or something...

He acts like that when eyes aren't on him and saves face when they are. Extreme or not, it fits the role.

It sounds more like "This is violent ergo it's overly edgy" is the stance here when there's plenty of media out there with the same level, if not more, that also have something to say and say it well.

So the fact of the matter is that the Black Sun did not do it well. Or at least not good enough, because I remember the flurry of negativity that hit the show after the release. To me, he's more of a BvS rider version: few people like him, but those who get hooked just adore him.
Plus, your show is both mundane and extreme at the same time. I doubt that it can be combined in principle.

I didn't have a problem with Black Sun's violence.

I had a problem with it having nothing at all to do with Kamen Rider Black. And being just contrived as hell in the way it ended.

It was definitely a show that thought it was way smarter than it was. I actually liked Shin more in contrast, since it actually felt like a re-imagining of the original Kamen Rider, rather than a pretentious nameslap. (even if it was strangely edited and overstuffed)

I always find it funny that people can declare that a show is too violent when said violence pales in comparison to violence that happens in the actual real world.

The violence in Black Sun is necessary to depict the atrocity and severity of the historical events it is invoking.

All sorts of action movies depict horrendous violence but people are desensitized to gun violence, off-screen violence, or violence against "others" (think about all the fodder aliens in Avengers, henchmen in John Wick, etc). The end result is the same in all these cases: loss of life.

I think people tend to conflate edgey nihilism with the repudiation of tragedy especially when we seek escapism from entertainment. Black Sun took nothing away from the mainline Kamen Rider series, heck we even got a full fledged big budget Kamen Rider movie within a year of its release. Kamen Rider proves to be a diverse property and it's impossible for all of it to land for everyone. I'm glad they tried something different and I think the show adds a richness to the IP.

Which one Shin?

There is a difference between showing violence in a way that is repulsive and enjoying it. The Amazons and the Black Sun try to do the former, but often slip into the latter. In addition to the overtly bloody, violence can also be ridiculous, nondescript or large-scale. Sometimes the unseen scares and impresses much more. Drone operators take far more lives than special forces. More people die from road accidents than in any war. Just compare the death of the Wasp-Aug from Anno's movie to how Darom and Baraom's murders were savored. The viewer does not feel sympathy for these characters, so what is the point of dragging out their demise so much? Or the massacre of Bilgenia with the police.
As for the fact that they kill everywhere and a lot, then yes. And in children's shows, including. In Geats, for example, for some reason, killing a Jamato with the personality of a dead person is normal, but killing a person turned into a brainless Jamato is bad. But just because a problem is widespread doesn't mean it's no longer a problem.

Pontification on the explicit depiction of violence on a show about civil disorder and authoritarian regimes is entirely missing the point. It's like watching a riot and overlooking the cause for the riot because the method makes you uncomfortable. Like, that is the whole point- that violence is ugly, unforgiving, and should not be glossed over. Imagine trying to depict racism without violence; that's a tacit acceptance of being a benefactor of the status quo because they are so innately intertwined.

I would agree that Black Sun tends to heighten violence and gore, but I think it does so commensurate to our levels of desensitization. Take for example the ESRB Game Ratings board and how violent depictions in video games today get much lower T/M ratings than those same games would have gotten in the past.

I would simply ask that you look at why, not how Black Sun chooses the direction it does. Context is extremely important and we often forget that the term edgy used to label media that pushed boundaries.

Here is an article about the hypocrisy in violent entertainment:

https://supreme.findlaw.com/legal-co...hostel-ii.html

It's fairly short and worth a read. I'm not here to say anyone is wrong about their feelings for the show. As someone who abhors violence the more and more I get older, I've had to constantly re-examine my relationship with much of tokusatsu.

Jordan Peele in Get Out did a good job of it.


And that makes it part of the problem. We have low empathy for violence, so movies have to get bloodier to impress us, so the level of empathy goes down even more. This is a road to nowhere and sooner or later you will have to turn off it. Plus, I don?t understand why fantasy is chosen to show extra-violence (this now applies not only to the Black Sun, but in general). In more realistic genres, it would be easier to arouse empathy in the audience.

And the problem is that the Black Sun did not cope with this. Again, the topic dedicated to him confirms this. And the wrong message sometimes only hurts.

I agree with the article for the most part. Perhaps my position is that it is important to understand that hyper-violence does not equal reality. A dystopia is just as impossible as a utopia. As someone who is in a country at war, I can safely say that in war the best and worst manifestations of human nature are encountered in almost the same way and none of them outweigh the others. Actually, even the war itself takes place only so that there is peace in another corner of the globe.

Get Out, a movie that had the villains prey on black people to kidnap them, tearing them away from their loved ones all for racist reasonings, should not be called nonviolent imo, there's still physical violence but that movie is a psychological thriller so I find the comparison to be rather weak, it's like saying Twilight Zone isn't disturbing because it doesn't habe gratuitous levels of violence. As for Black Sun, I feel it's important to know about actual political stuff in Japan to understand why the direction was done the way it was, the Kaijin racists harassing a school is also taken one for one out of stuff that happens in Japan, I saw an excellent video on it a while back so I'll go link it when I find it


EDIT:
https://youtu.be/iGhaQ5P1OBs

I would like to make it clear that my main point here is that I believe the physical violence to be meaningful rather than cheap shock value, it can help to visualize the brutality of the societal issues the show wishes to handle to an audience who may not be affected

I agree with the folks who didn't like Black Sun, but I think I have different reasons.

I thought the hyper-violence was well-executed and genuinely shocking at times. I thought it tried to tackle some interesting, meaty themes. But ultimately, it was atrociously paced. There is virtually no plot development for long stretches of time, and then, just when you think something exciting is about to happen... it is undercut by weak attempts at grounded realism. The lack of momentum would be fine if it had been supplemented with compelling character work, but the main characters are mostly thinly drawn replicas of Professor X and Magneto. It's a lot of retread narrative ground. A lot of been-there-done-that vibes.

I think Black Sun was handicapped by the choice to make it a series instead of a movie. It is a prime example of a story that has enough content for two hours that was stretched out to roughly eight in order to fill Amazon's demand for a streaming series.

The discussion of violence in media and the apparent dichotomy between Black Sun and Amazons reminds me of this article excerpt:

"The final fight against N-Daguva-Zeba is a culmination of the tragedy of being a Kamen Rider. With the threat of his Ultimate Form looming over him, Godai faces N-Daguva-Zeba alone. Their fight is so brutal that they both return to their human forms, resorting to punching each other with bloodied knuckles until only one of them is left alive.....To me, this is what Showa and Early Heisei is really about. Beyond the fun fight scenes and the morals taught to children, it is fundamentally a reminder that despite the appeal of violence in media, it should not be glorified. Being a Kamen Rider is a burden that is nobly carried, and rarely something to be happy about."

https://tokusatsunetwork.com/2021/06...-a-good-thing/