Dude, give the man some time! He just posted his wrap up like 15 minutes before you posted and likely hasn't had a chance to reply to your post, which would have come in while he was working on his big wrap up posts.

I'm just asking, I never ask to reply ASAP. Just making sure before I act next.

I'm only one man! I'm doing my best!

Sure, Zolda's got a Strike Vent, but he's still a long-range fighter. It's like fighting games, y'know? Different fighters have different movesets, are good for different roles. In Ryuki, Tiger's a close-combat fighter, Ouja's a quick striker, etc. Zolda's thing is long-range attacks, and that's something Goro never concerned himself with. He's only one man! He's doing his best!

But Reiko's able to harness other people to get what she wants (I mean, Kitaoka), while Ren... you know, people skills aren't exactly in Ren's Card Deck.

Oh, I dug it! Her Contract Monster becomes a fan, forcing enemies into her blades? I thought it was neat.

I mean, that's the thing, I think it works better in the movie because it's a more accidental, regrettable choice. Yui dying (just dropping dead, out of nowhere) means that everything after that happens to her, not because of her. She's someone the plot acts on, not an autonomous participant. With the movie, she makes a conscious choice. She's active in her story. It's a tragic choice, and one with massive, unforeseeable consequences. I don't know. I'm always going to pick a version of a story that includes a decision by a character over one that doesn't.

Oh, and the movie tries to make Shinji culpable, with his staying inside being the reason a lonely Yui plays in Mirror World, but it's an absurd moment in the film. That... it's not something that even the most empathetic Rider could feel guilt over. He was a kid! It was raining! He didn't murder Yui by staying in!

But Miho's sister wasn't dead, she was just on ice. She was in cold storage until medicine advanced enough to find a cure for, uh... being stabbed with a broken bottle?

Speaking of

Anyway, thank you so much for these threads. I struggle a lot with explaining why I like kamen rider as much as I do, and these have help me a lot. Kamen Rider is a wonderful franchise about the exploration of power, heroism, and what is right. Ryuki from my understanding helped kick start the exploration of types of heroes. I think it's funny Kobayashi wrote two of the most influential kamen rider series (this and Den-o), both flipped the idea of what a kamen rider is. Really I'm kind of rambling here. Also pointing out that someone can still act like an asshole, but do heroic things is something you don't see a lot, especially not in the way it's done with Ren. I'm starting to realize Ryuki has a better exploration of heroism then a lot of "adult" superhero shows.

One of the weird benefits of working through all of the Phase 1 Heisei stuff and then doing Zi-O is that I can finally play this goddamn game I bought a year ago.

Aw, thanks! And thank you for sharing your thoughts! I only do these things to be able to talk with other fans about the shows I'm watching, so thanks for making this worth doing!

The craziest thing to me about Kobayashi and this show is that I think Ryuki succeeds in spite of a flabby structure and some lackluster worldbuilding, while her OOO series is perfectly constructed, and the villains are complex and memorable. I guess it shouldn't be "crazy", I'd hope that any writer would improve after ten years of work, but I maybe got too excited for Ryuki based on her other work?

It's, uh.

I've got that game.

Don't get too hyped for it.

To be fair, I played it enough to feel like I wasn't getting the full impact of the story... and to know that I wasn't depriving myself by not playing it for a while.

Congratulations on making it to the end of the Rider War! Your wish to watch more Kamen Rider will be granted.

Since you mentioned that show once, and I'll never have an another opportunity to ask/joke: Who is the better lawyer between Kitaoka and Saul Goodman?

Glad you ultimately liked Ryuki more than you didn't. I'm excited for the cellphone mage next (Magiranger?!).

Thanks! It's my main drive, and as the song goes, All We Need Is Drive!

But, man, I ended up spending a real long time with this show. I do my write-ups in Google Docs, and this series? Just the write-ups, none of the responses or board chatter? 86 pages. Agito was only 53. I wrote too many words about Ryuki, I think!

To commemorate that realization, I made this word cloud. I used some online tool. I hope they picked a relevant image for Ryuki!

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/...rdartryuki.png

Better is tricky, but I'm going to take it to mean "more likely to win quickly". In that case, Saul Goodman, by far. Kitaoka is a wealthy lawyer because he's a slow lawyer, and he's fine with dragging something out until he's wrung every penny out of his client. Saul is a hustler, a guy who's about flashy twists and shocking reveals, and he loves coming up with schemes. Saul likes the challenge, Kitaoka likes the spoils.

I cannot believe I had a real answer to that question.

(Also, Kim Wexler would bury both of them.)

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/exaid/misa21.png
https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/exaid/misa22.png
https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/exaid/misa23.png

It's a bit hard to tell if this -is- the case, but I really really like that it appears we used 'Shinji' more than 'Ryuki'. I think that's wonderful.

I made my opinion on Ryuki clear really on (but I’m too lazy to find and quote it). Really, nothing’s changed for me since then. The problems I had were resolved too late for me to actually forgive them. What made it worse was that some of the elements introduced since then (Asakura’s rivalry with Kitaoka, Tojo’s desire to be a hero) were the parts I actually thought were pretty good. (Through there were some I didn’t like that much, such as Odin in general and the continued focus on monster fights)

I do agree that the show had way overestimated how invested we were in Yui. I mean, why should we care for someone who’s barely there when she’s on screen and has no real personal connection to EITHER of our two heroes?

In general, I prefer the spin-offs to the actual show. I didn’t think I’d ever find a show I’d rank below Kuuga or the early Neo-Heisei shows (which aren’t on any of my “top” lists), but this was one show I outright hated watching, as opposed to not liking watching it.

Thankfully, my experience is almost over and I’ve already got a nice, presumably friendlier show lined up to take its place starting Monday.

The most amusing thing about the cloud is how big Yui's name gets to be.

And, from what I've heard, you are going to *love* Faiz. An entire series in the Inoue Zone.

OK, as you've finished, now I have posted the essay I've been talking about previously in a separate thread. Though I also want to post this one here, an explanation of Ryuki, but on the review that is not about Ryuki, so gotta screenshot it and just post the Ryuki part of this page (consider this as a preview before checking out blog, the actual KR thoughts has much, much more than this, mainly Ryuki and OOO, I'd say the most complete I've ever seen on the internet, much better than wiki, IMO).
https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...732&height=475

Oh, I just feel that the sword slash attack ain't any different from the regular sword slash, making it seems not any deadlier than usual attack, it's just like slashing a jumping enemy once. Tiger's Final Vent is also about the Contract Monster forcing the enemy into Tiger's claw, but at least it gives extra pain by being wiped off across the ground.

So to sum up you want for her to actually cause a doom and try to atone for it? Probably just the difference of stances (and I have to admit I'm likely pettier in this case). I think I prioritize morality over storytelling for this case. I want Yui to be just as empathetic as Shinji like you said here, where like him, feeling guilt over things like this, so I'd like for her having no actual mistake like Shinji here (unlike in movie). And like Shinji again, I want her decisions being selfess; based off on others and not out of personal (unlike in movie); like Shinji deciding to become a Rider after seeing a girl losing her mother.

Wew... this is new. Other sources I read has it saying Miho's sister being dead.

Gotta talk about the others later, but again, want to explain this one first. It either comes to these 2.

• First, the rules don't state that all 13 Riders have to be active at the same time or unique, for the main series, there were 10 Riders appeared, but it's brought up to 13 by 2 more Odins, and a second Zolda (Goro). In the movie continuities, the presence of Verde (13 Riders) and Ryuga and Femme (Episode Final) indicates that 2 of the repeat Riders mentioned above never became Riders (Goro never became Zolda in either movie, and Odin either stayed dead after his second death (Episode Final) or didn't die a second time (13 Riders)).
• Second, there's a theory where people with the scribbled eyes in the opening are the extra Riders which presumably have been taken out off-screen.
  https://66.media.tumblr.com/5fdf45f2...tsaco1_500.png

It's just Shiro's choice to fight only 1 Rider left as Odin, but with Shinji delaying the Rider War to its near deadline, Shiro is forced to change his plans to prematurely fight other Riders as Odin to make sure that all other Riders die before Yui's birthday to gain his wish. Shiro obviously won't reveal about his motives, or especially cheating the game for himself. The time limit is related to those 2, so Shiro won't tell either, until Shinji forced him to. I think you got mistaken here, wasn't the scene of Asakura being shot happened before Knight becomes final Rider (and Odin self-destructing)? Asakura's death scene actually cuts to Odin slashing Knight Survive.

I always assumed that the additional riders died off-screen. After all, some of them were riders prior to meeting the other characters. And it wouldn't surprise me if some were killed off by the mirror monsters.

Well, the word cloud is done off of an upload of my Google Doc, so it doesn't take into account any board chatter, unfortunately. (I don't even know how I could get all 70 pages of this thread downloaded in a reasonable amount of time.) It's just my episode posts, and I said Shinji 378 times to Ryuki's 316. But I'm sure we all said Shinji more than we said Ryuki. And Yui gets talked about a lot! I can't remember the context, but it was probably all about her hair.

The thing I like the most from that word cloud is that "feel" shows up more often than "think". I prefer that. I'd rather approach a show like this emotionally, how it's making me feel to watch it, than with plot analysis, theories, whatever. Maybe not for everyone, but it's how I'd rather watch Kamen Rider.

I'm actually psyched for Faiz! I've heard murmurs that hit's got a... specific tone? All I know is that I read the Wiki synopsis of the premise a couple years ago, when I was trying to understand how this franchise worked, and I did not understand it at all. (I also don't remember much. Aliens?) I remember feeling like I was having a stroke reading the series breakdown, words I recognized up against words that were incomprehensible, forming sentences that were just out of my reach.

Should be fun!

Thanks for sharing that!

I don't know how I'd rank Ryuki just yet. The characters are so great, but they're trapped in a story that doesn't have any moves to it. (The stakes and premise don't ever really evolve over the course of the series, minus the last two episodes, which is sort-of insane to think about. There are new Riders, and those new characters create interesting stories, but the world they operate in stays fairly static.)

I'm sorry you didn't have fun watching it, but thanks again for talking about it! What's your new show on Monday?

Yeah, I want her predicament to be a choice she made, even if it's (especially if it's) without full knowledge of the consequences. It keeps her central to the story, an active participant rather than a perpetual victim.

And, I get it, her being blameless can make her sacrifice more noble. I just feel like her being an innocent martyr is less interesting, dramatically, than someone who made one weird mistake in childhood and now has to grapple with that as an adult. One's not better than the other, but I prefer the latter.

I mean, those are neat theories, but I'm just going off of what's on the show. I'm not sure anyone ever makes a distinction of multiple Odins adding up to the Rider Battles thirteen Riders. Same thing with the intro. It's a cool concept, but it's a fan theory. You can certainly come up with theories to get most of it to come together, but I my feeling is you shouldn't have to? Like, we're talking about basic mechanics of a plot that's paying off a year-long story. These aren't the sort of things that fans should need to have theories about.

To me, those extra faces are meant to imply the breadth of people that could be involved in the Rider Battles, not fill in holes to a story that probably hadn't even been written yet. (I'm not sure how many scripts would've been completed before they shot that intro sequence, but I'd guess no more than a dozen.)

Also, what is the fan theory for the lucky cat, the broccoli, and the fish?

Odin declares Knight to be the final Rider (other than him) before Asakura's killed. That's what bugs me, the Odin/Knight Final Fight is happening before all the other Riders are dead.

Sure, definitely a possibility. Or maybe some got killed during the series and we never saw it. It's just weird that they couldn't seem to spare a minute to close off that omission. Also, how cool would it have been if we didn't see Asakura for a few episodes, and then he just drops four cracked Card Decks on Kitaoka's desk or something? How great would that have been?

The show I’m starting is Tokkei Winspector, the 9th Metal Heroes series and the first in the Rescue Heroes trilogy, which is defined by the lack of villainous groups in favour of more regular criminals and emergencies and keeping the gear used by the heroes more grounded (namely, we actually see where it goes when not in use).

It sounds like a good one! I hope you enjoy it!

That definitely sounds like the experience of trying to understand Faiz from the outside. I'd say I have a basic working knowledge of most Heisei series, but Faiz is a big blank spot for me. It just defies you until you watch it, and I'd rather be watching other things.

Speaking of, I suppose my challenge is to finish Blade before you catch up to me so I at least have relevant stuff to say about that. But anyway, even for series I haven't seen, it's fun reading these!

To gain more insight of ranking, if you have time, can you read the essay blog I've shared (separate post, or link above for quick access)? Probably can if you also read wikis (you can read the OOO take too!), and those are much better version of wikis. And yeah Shiro's one invincible villain, that's the reason why the characters are trapped in story without much moves. From Yui, to Sano, to Ren, to Asakura, everyone related to the Rider War are his pawns and victims. He's a ghost, so Riders can't attack him, he controls the single most powerful Rider, so should they even try they're almost certainly going to fail. If Odin does die, Shiro can just find a new person to replace him. If something doesn't go his way, he can just have Odin rewind time. Top it all off, he can actually strip Riders of their powers if he really wants to. Hilarously, "trapped in a story" is even exemplified in a Rider battle (with Shiro also). https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...300/3zsxyf.gif

Sure, those are theories, but Kobayashi's writing style mainly utilizes Show, Don't Tell system. She won't tell you anything outright, and instead convey through hints, dialogues and character emotions. I think she purposefully wants her fans to just catch what they see happen in her story and make their own theories/assumptions about it, like what I explained about this before. So I think making theories to explain something is plausible when talking about Kobayashi's work.

I think he just expects Zolda and Ouja to die soon therefore Knight is untouched and final, Shiro knew Zolda and Ouja are going to have their own battle, because Shiro watches both Zolda vs Ouja and Odin vs Knight Survive at episode 50.

Oh this is also related to the picture above I sent to you, the scribbled people holding cards. He explains that some Riders are maybe killed offscreen, and they are likely shown as the people with scribbled eye in the OP.

Thanks! I'm just as psyched to get to Blade as I am Faiz. Kamen Rider is a very fun franchise!

I mean, boy, I would, it's very nice of you to link to it, but my plate is pretty full right this second. Work has become a 24/7 thing, I got personal life stuff I gotta catch up on (why does laundry always need to be done, why is it never actually done) and my Kamen Rider bandwidth is pretty well spoken for. I'll try, is kind-of the best I can say. It's not going to be real quick, honestly. But thanks!

I mean, I watched her OOO series, and I don't recall feeling nearly as adrift and unfulfilled as I did off of her Ryuki plot.

The problem with Show Don't Tell is that, the more unfamiliar the terrain, the less the viewer is able to infer what the writer is trying to imply. Shiro's such a withholding character that a lot of what might've been intended didn't really come through, at least as far as the Rider Battles go. (The stuff with Yui is a little easier to get a grip on.) The mechanics of the plot are so seemingly contradictory, or at least unclear, that it's hard to even guess why some of these things are happening to the characters.

It's going to make for a subjective viewing experience. For folks who love to create fan theories, who feel like a show is a jumping-off point for the real story, I'm sure Ryuki has a lot to offer, plot-wise. For me, I was looking for more robust story from a writer than what I got, I guess.

Well done! Lots of interesting things in the last several pages that I want to respond to, so I'll just cram everything here :v

On Episode Final: this was my very first KR movie ever, so I had a big soft spot for it. I agree that the Yui-Shiro/Mirror World was handled better here (I definitely connected more strongly with their story), it has terrific battle scenes, and Miho/Femme was one of its most memorable/best aspects.

I was super bummed out with Miho's eventual fate and how she couldn’t escape the Female Rider Curse, but in retrospect, (1) this is at least in a show where every Rider character dies (one way or the other), and (2) I like the way they kinda subverted the ‘Dead Girlfriend/Love Interest Club’ trope by not having her give final words of encouragement or being used as some sort of ‘power-up’ for a prominent male character. She exited as a character that has a lovely and cute romantic sub-plot (still my favorite pairing in KR, sadly), but she also went out on her own terms and gave us plenty to remember about beyond just her relationship with a male character. Those shots of Shinji’s smiling at his fixed shoelaces, followed some moment later by passersby walking past Miho’s body without a care… just yet another juxtaposition of the heart-warming and the brutal in a series that’s so full of them.

After my last rewatch, I actually did a bit of thought experiment to try to find a way to squeeze Femme, Verde, and Ryuga into the main series and have a proper ’13 Riders Show!!’ as advertised, while still maintaining the general essence and narrative beats of the show. That was a lot harder than expected. I figured you could have Verde as an early boss character in the vein of Scissors and Gai, making his mark and leaving in fairly quickly fashion (obviously Tezuka’s death should still follow the main series narrative, but because Verde’s Final Vent scene was by far the best thing from the Special, he still need to annihilate the hell out of somebody else). Femme could be introduced in mid-series and hang out until near the end, turning the core four Rider characters of Ryuki, Knight, Zolda, and Ouja into a core five. Ryuga would then appear in the show’s penultimate arc and got a bit more screen time than the movie, and after the conclusion of that, you'd proceed to the main series’ endgame.

Problem was, assuming you still have the regular episode count to work with, there’s a lot that need to be cut to accommodate all that. The Tiger and Alternative parts can probably be shortened, but then would you cut the filler/comedic episodes/all the ORE Journal stuff? In any other series, I’d do it in a heartbeat, but not in Ryuki. Those parts are way too good.

All in all, Ryuki is my favorite KR because it hit the perfect balance of comedic highs (low key it’s a supremely funny series), dramatic highs (so many memorable character arcs), and action highs (by far my favorite overall suit design, Rider line-up, and weapon gimmick. Fight scene choreography and music are also on point). For me, character overrides plot most of the time, except when the plot was so bad it actively derails character development—which didn’t really happen here. The flaws are mostly in structural and general world-building sense, and I can totally see how a viewer who’s more used to Heisei Phase II (only seen a few of those myself, but what’s immediately apparent to me is how it generally has more cogent world-building and plothole proofing compared to earlier Heisei ones) would be less tolerant to it. I myself would probably notice more of these in my next rewatch, but this thread also pointed out even more good things that I overlooked—so yeah, I’m pretty confident it’s still going to be my favorite KR after the rewatch.

Looking forward to the next threads—I just finished Faiz last year (and currently almost done with Blade and Hibiki), so I may have plenty to chime in. Congrats again on finishing this project, and thank you for maintaining such a fun and thought-provoking content, especially in this extremely tough time.

Thanks! I just finished breakfast, so let's do this!

Yeah, I can't really see Miho being Fridged since, as far as the movie is concerned, Shinji doesn't even know she's dead? It's maybe a smart choice, since they don't end up doing anything gross with her death to motivate Shinji, but it's a little weird that he never even knows she dies.

They have a very cute little romance, and I like how balanced their scenes are. She's not some bad-ass character who suddenly loses her autonomy to a man, swooning at his heroism. She's someone who manipulates and betrays, so the fact that this guy knows that and still wants to help, you can see how it wins her over. And for Shinji, this is someone who's like a less lost version of Ren, and maybe she just needs someone to be there for her, to let her know that she doesn't have to be alone in her mission. It's super organic, their relationship. Great writing, and pitch-perfect chemistry.

I absolutely love that part of their dynamic is her trying to take care of a quick-tempered, somewhat scatterbrained Shinji. Just trying to corral this dude, keep him focused, it's great. The fact that her last thought was This Dude Cannot Take Care Of Himself Without Me is hilarious and 100% accurate.

First, yeah, you can't drop the comedy episodes. Not only are they some of my favorite moments in the series (Kitaoka's silent Henshin! Yui destroying that apartment! MEGUMI!) but they're great breaks in the story.

As for working in the other three Riders, interesting thought experiment!

Femme is the most intriguing of the three, and that Shinji chemistry is great, so she'd definitely need to be in the series for a stretch. I'd introduce her when Ren starts to distance himself from the group, use her goals and connection to Shinji as a way of commenting on Ren's story.

Ryuga I'd save until the very end, an avatar for Shiro to fight with. I like the idea of Shiro's Rider just being a more powerful, less humane version of whoever made it to the end, and him being convinced it was going to be Shinji. (You tease appearances of Shiro's avatar in the back third, as he looks into mirrors and sees Dark Femme as she's winning, or Dark Tiger as he's winning.) That way you've got Dark Ryuki versus Knight in the finale, and that works a lot better for me.

Verde... so, here's where I'd make some big changes to the plot. I'd use Verde in place of Shiro/Odin for a lot of the story. He's a guy with limitless resources who really wants the Rider Battles to happen. He'd be the one juicing the story, getting involved when Shinji tries to shut things down. He'd be the one to give Asakura a Card Deck, maybe. He'd be a more direct thematic opposite to Shinji, like in the 13 Riders special. As Shinji is going around, trying to stop the fighting with emotional appeals to honor, to humanity, you'd have Verde on the other end of the battlefield making arguments for dominance, for greed. I'd probably have him taken out once the Second Secret Science Society hits the stage, and then you could do the Imperer story with the reveal that his dad was Verde.

For Shiro, I'd mostly keep him as a silent observer, and I'd avoid having him interfere in the Rider Battles. But! I'd tweak Reiko's investigation in the middle to feature flashbacks of Scientist Shiro. This way, I think you could do a lot to humanize his goal, show the emotional weight of his desire to avert Yui's death, which would make the ending of the show resonate more. Also, it'd be a great way to more naturally impart exposition about the mechanics of Rider Battles, the wish at the end, whatever. All of those details could get dropped in as needed. Also also, it'd make Reiko's plot feel more informative, less redundant. It'd mean that she'd have info that'd be, if not more useful, then at least different than what the Riders knew.

I have no idea how you could fit all that in an already-stuffed series. Maybe drop Atori, add Yui to Ore Journal? They feinted towards that early in the run. Could work.

I don't usually try and think of this stuff, try and "fix" stories, so I hope that doesn't sound too dumb!

I think the big difference between Phase 2 and Phase 1, when it comes to worldbuilding so far, is that I think Phase 1 is more about episodic content while Phase 2 is more about series-long stories. (This is not a hard rule! There are exceptions!) I feel like modern Kamen Rider has an expectation that fans are going to watch every episode, if not now then in the future, so they can have dramatic shifts in the premise and put more thought into how it's all going to feel after watching it all. The Phase 1 stuff, I feel like they were concerned that kids might miss episodes, or even big chunks, so the basic premise needs to stay fairly static. (Kuuga fights monsters. Agito fights monsters. Ryuki fights monsters and other Riders.) There can be shifts in character relationships, who's in the spotlight or who's mad at who, but it's a lot smaller and easier to explain than There Is A New Big Boss And Here's What They Want.

The newer approach has some positives (tighter-ish series plots, more big changes after events) but also some negatives (whole arcs end up not working sometimes, plots can get a little too complex). It's a trade-off, for sure.

Thanks again! I'm glad y'all are cool with me talking about this stuff, and have stuff of your own to bring up. This fandom has been incredibly kind, and I'm happy to be a part of it. I'm excited to see what you've got to say about Faiz!

Well OK it's understandable to have a full plate, especially with the link being wall of texts, but I'm just judging from how you can read stuffs like wiki to gain more info (like Faiz above). But at least for Ryuki and OOO, use that link in place of wiki to know more. Honestly, I think every Ryuki and OOO fan should check that out.

Yup, for Ryuki, I'll give it a free pass for Female Rider Curse... I mean all Riders in Ryuki are supposed to die! What if she dies? Most of the other male Riders are also die! It's not sexism.

Well, there are always monsters for Riders to show off their abilities. There are Riders who never use Final Vents on other Riders like Imperer.

Yeah that's the problem, the filler stuff are, well, fillers, and deride from more plot elements (and especially if those are good). Probably shorten some of the 2 parters into one part (like Ouja and Mika, or figuring out SSSS' plan, solving things quicker), t̶h̶o̶u̶g̶h̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶w̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶b̶a̶b̶l̶y̶ ̶m̶a̶k̶e̶ ̶s̶o̶m̶e̶ ̶R̶i̶d̶e̶r̶s̶ ̶l̶a̶s̶t̶ ̶s̶h̶o̶r̶e̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶n̶ ̶S̶c̶i̶s̶s̶o̶r̶s̶ or, dunno if this is optimal, but cut some repeated fights for extra 3 Riders stuff. Or... (if your concern is number of Riders not being 13) turn the SSSS into actual extra Riders instead of Alternatives.

Yeah, I'd think probably Kobayashi realizes the cons of Show Don't Tell and tone it down in some of her next other Rider series. I've been trying to explain Shiro's stuff (like I think the Rider stuffs are pretty legit) here. The one I can't really get is the pictures coming to life. The best I've read (yeah, from that essay) is that Mirror World is a place that grants wish (they wish to be protected by the monsters) in general, but the wishes, like those power Shiro creates, are phantoms that only exists in (or in connection to) the Mirror World, for a real world wish, need 12 Rider lives, Rider War there is. She fixed that part in Den-O later, where it's explicitly explained that imagination can become reality - same principle as Ryuki there but confirmed.

Well yeah, currently your what-ifs here aren't dumb and contradictory.... good. For Femme which part of Ren distancing away (there are multiple part). For Ryuga, somehow I'm thinking on the part where Shinji thinks about saving Yui (by killing other Riders). That's a completely vile action because it's exactly how other Riders are bad, and by that, I'd like for Ryuga to represent that part of him that potentially does dirty work for someone he cares, manifestation of his inner demon part, but I don't know the way to implement it. Besides, Episode Final made changes like Shinji and Yui being childhood friends (it's a change like in 13 Riders where Ren and Tezuka are best friends and both are Eri's boyfriends) for the sole purpose of creating Ryuga. Also Ryuga is still no match for Survive Riders (the final battle has Knight in Survive form obviously).

For Shiro and Verde, I'd like for Shiro to keep interfering in Rider Battles (partly so you wouldn't think Shiro is irrelevant in Rider Battles, to show he truly has complete control over every Rider/Mirror stuff) different from what you want.... but I mean he also could just use Verde as his enforcer right? Both sides are fulfilled. Shiro does use other Riders to do his dirty works too, not only Odin or Mirror Monsters. Like he supports Ouja, giving him tips and orders, to make him kill other Riders. Or Shinji for above. If he uses Ouja as killer machine, he could use Verde as what you've described above. Shiro could talk with Verde about like how great Rider War is, what you will get, and the potential of it failing, etc. to make Verde ensure the fight happens and persuade others.. Though I also think Verde's role to keep others fighting overlaps with Gai's? (and for sure, they are partners in 13 Riders) I know Verde has charisma and if he's successful, then other Riders would all be a clear-cut villain, which is what 13 Riders were about, so make Riders harder to convince? Also "and then you could do the Imperer story with the reveal that his dad was Verde." lol that would make sense that Sano's building is set in the same place as Takamizawa's. Company name's aren't the same though in 13 Riders it's Takamizawa Group, in series it's Sano Company.

I don't know if Scientist Shiro (other groups of flashbacks too? this is another part of Mirror World story) would fit in Reiko's investigations as she doesn't know about that part (other than asking what he did), probably I'd like for Kagawa to do the exposition job (to his group, obviously not to others which he's secretive), as he knows the most about Shiro's sthick, with flashbacks along the way.

Noted! Thanks!

Any part? The earlier stuff, when Ren and Asakura team up, would give Miho more screentime, and would allow her intro to more naturally include her grudge against Asakura. But you could also do it when Eri gets worse, if you wanted to space out new Riders.

I think having Ryuga come about because of Shinji's inability to take a life is interesting. That could be cool, a distraught Shinji unknowingly creating the merciless Ryuga. Good idea!

I think I'd be a fan of Shiro starting the Rider Battles, being an omnipotent overseer, the gamemaster, and then have all of the combat and subterfuge and obstacles be something that generates out of the Riders. Keep them as the instigators, not some all-powerful dude who keeps putting his finger on the scales. Like, football (American football) is least fun to watch when there are penalties every single play, and the refs are adding and subtracting yardage. Shiro's the same way to me, someone who's so involved that it can make successes and failures feel too mutable.

There's a bunch of Reiko's investigation we never see on the show. She goes to America for several episodes, and we only find out when she gets back! I'm thinking of something where Reiko tracks down more people who knew Shiro way back when (classmates, neighbors, whatever) and as she interviews them, we get flashbacks to pertinent information: Shiro talking about Mirror World with a college roommate, Shiro telling a girlfriend about how he wants to save his sister from some mysterious fate, a fellow scientist (like Kagawa) who helped him design the Card Decks, etc. Beyond the exposition, I think it would've been helpful to ground some of Shiro's motivation, show how he got to this point.

About Pokemon...Ryuki's a total deconstruction of it (Mons part specifically). Let's say you form a contract with one of monsters. Great! Now you can use their body parts as weapons to fight people who also use their monster's body parts to fight. You also have to fight other monsters to give your monster something to eat, unless you simply feed people to your monster. If you don't fight the monsters? Then your monster gets hungry and decides to eat you. It also happens if you don't even want to fight or you're forced not to (which is why I wonder what happens if Shinji did stop the fight, and asking about optimal way to stop the war). Or even if your Advent Card or Deck get broken. And it's not like there's a good chance your monster will even be loyal to you anyways. Especially if you have other monsters snagged off their dead masters, or you just happened to luck out and contract a monster that comes in herds.

What are the write-ups, exactly? And different page amounts compared to the Tokunation boards? Are there any differences compared to the ones posted on the board?

How about those refering him as 'Kido'... like most of people in the show?

OK, would like to see anyone's thoughts from that essay (ideally post it in that thread too to see).

Would that make even less investment to Shiro, and thus other things about him, if it's done that way? (he's already the god of "Non-Action Big Bad"!). I was thinking about the scenario where both Verde and Shiro participates. Also if it's done that way, would you have the impression that Shiro can stop it if he wants? (instigator yeah, but I don't think instigator means they have every control of their thing).

F̶i̶n̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶r̶e̶f̶e̶r̶e̶d̶ ̶K̶a̶g̶a̶w̶a̶ ̶b̶y̶ ̶n̶a̶m̶e̶.̶ Don't get me wrong, I also would like to see his scientist times (Mostly shown in Ren's amnesia part, I guess you wanted Ejima to be used for this too right? Though I think Kagawa can be a substitute for that later), but dunno but this is my take; I feel like they only show the necessary parts of Reiko's investigations once each. And I feel like, other than interactions with main casts (which didn't really give different outcome but there are some differences, for Kitaoka talk, you already know, for second Kagawa talk with Toujou, to establish Toujou targetting her), there are 2 outcomes of Reiko tracking down people... not so different from Yui; either the person is going to tell her, and gets killed by Shiro (like sending Mirror Monsters after Prof. Potratz), or the person is secretive/in denial (the Nakamura scene is almost exact same rehash), so both Reiko and audience won't get to know anything, and I guess they won't make repeated scenes with exactly same result. However Reiko getting the documents part (ep. 47) would be the one different to show the scene, and the flashbacks can be shown if the person also explains to her. Though that would be only a single scene and also a last-second info dump. W̶h̶y̶ ̶S̶h̶i̶r̶o̶ ̶d̶i̶d̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶k̶i̶l̶l̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶o̶n̶e̶ ̶g̶i̶v̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶o̶u̶g̶h̶?̶ ̶B̶e̶c̶a̶u̶s̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶w̶a̶r̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶e̶n̶d̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶s̶o̶o̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶o̶t̶h̶e̶r̶s̶ ̶k̶n̶o̶w̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶a̶b̶o̶u̶t̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶w̶o̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶m̶a̶t̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶a̶n̶y̶m̶o̶r̶e̶?̶

They're just how I construct episode posts. All the other stuff, responses and whatnot, I do those straight to the board. The episode posts take a little longer, and I don't want to lose work accidentally, so I do those in Google Docs. If there are any differences, it's that a) formatting like italics and bold all get done on the board, and b) I definitely catch a few more errors as I'm posting a write-up to the board.

I feel like if you had a more active/sympathetic Shiro in flashbacks, you could play him as more unknowable in the present without impacting the ending for the worse. Moving the Shiro stuff to other parts of the series, away from interfering in the Rider Battles, I think you could have equal investment, if not greater.

This pic just arrived, wanna share it.
https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...338&height=475

Won't you touch Rider Time Ryuki or something? (or separately from original Ryuki)

So you mean transfer portions of Shiro interfering in Rider War to showing his flashbacks instead?
C̶h̶a̶r̶a̶c̶t̶e̶r̶s̶ ̶s̶t̶i̶l̶l̶ ̶w̶o̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶a̶b̶l̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶d̶e̶a̶l̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶h̶i̶m̶ ̶a̶n̶y̶w̶a̶y̶.̶ Oh well, I misread your suggestion about just removing his interference to Rider War and adding nothing else, which IMO, would make him more akin into OOO's Ancient King, a past villain which is no longer involved in the present.... and (with it being "more unknowable", it can veer into "It's all This Will Be Important Later") would you think anything involving Shiro seem more irrelevant to seek this way?

I was going to watch that alongside Zi-O, since I think that's what it was produced to support?

Yeah, I'd basically make Present-Day Shiro a cameo appearance, a boogeyman, and have Flashback Shiro as a more slow-collapse villain-in-the-making. The end of the show kind-of portrays his actions as a tragedy, so I think getting to know him before he's an emotionally-distant Mirror Ghost could only help the storytelling.

Yeah, Rider Time: Ryuki was a Zi-O spinoff and even has Sougo and Geiz in it.

OK, as you know, Shiro keeps resetting the war, if the outcome isn't like what he desired. And if Shinji is the biggest obstacle in his war (and who eventually wins at the end), there are probably arguments of why Shiro didn't try to get rid of Shinji ASAP in any timeline. Probably 13 Riders is meant to be made as an answer to that. It's probably made to refute that argument, 13 Riders may be (possibly one of) Shiro's attempt to try to get rid of Shinji. And it still fails. In fact, in the beginning of it, Shinji is being attacked by a monster, there's already a Ryuki (Sakakibara) before him, and he still manages to become a Rider despite all of that, It's just seems that despite his best efforts, Shirou is still unable to eliminate Shinji regardless of what happens.

Geiz is Ren, a̶n̶d̶ ̶d̶e̶s̶p̶i̶t̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶g̶e̶n̶d̶e̶r̶ ̶d̶i̶f̶f̶e̶r̶e̶n̶c̶e̶ ̶S̶o̶u̶g̶o̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶Y̶u̶i̶.̶ Obviously it's a spin-off and it supports Zi-O, but some people think it's a real continuation of Ryuki for some reason.

Shiro's a Woobie Destroyer Of Worlds type (and no, examples of this character type doesn't need to be sympathetic to the audience). I'm into his scientist flashbacks too (or anything involving Shiro's scientific colleagues), but speaking about the show end... looking at the other side, would the tragedy actually a deserving one to him where the finale hinted that things won't go the way he planned them, that his wish will always be out of his reach, despite all the power and invincibility he has and eventually he's not better than any of his victims (he's no exception of the cycle of suffering the Rider War causes)?

Sure? Maybe? A lot of this stuff is incredibly subjective, and can only be answered by individual viewers. Like, "is one ending better than another" is something I can only answer for myself, and try and explain why. I feel like I've already gone way further down the track of trying to fix Ryuki than I'd ever really want to. It's not my thing, you know? It's a fun thought experiment, but these are all just little feelings I have about what might've been interesting to see play out. They probably wouldn't work as a season-long story with a finite number of episodes and a tight budget!

I'm... not sure how? They don't really have similar roles, and if anything the implication is supposed to be that they're parallel to Shinji and Ren.

Oh well, I'm talking about "Ren is Geiz" jokes because of how similar they look. And to a lesser extent, there's a joke about Yui and Sougo, look-wise in the same way too.

I don’t see either one, honestly. Shinji and Yui are both likable.