I'm not really convinced CycloneAccel Xtreme is that much stronger than CycloneJoker Xtreme anyway. Yes Shroud made all these predictions and proclamations that it would be that much stronger, but at the time she was driven only by revenge and shrugging off Shotaro as weak, who then went on to surpass her expectations (didn't she say something like "Shotaro is the key" or something along those lines before she disappeared?).

At best like Den-O said I'd say it would probably be as strong as CJX.

Sentai doesn't really have this problem does it? I'm trying to think of a Sentai that has a special movie form, and I'm coming up empty. It's just a KR problem of what counts and what doesn't. Though if you wanted to use US only stuff. I'll use Dino Thunder. What would be Red's Final Form? Triassic Mode, Battilizer, or that Battilizer Gun Mode. ... God he was over-powered.

Sentai tends to go with movie exclusive mecha rather than forms. I think the only team that have had a movie exclusive super mode has been Megaranger.

I forgot completely about those suits. But yea, you're right on the other thing to. Other than Brajira. I still, very much, want him to be the badguy in every movie. Sentai's DaiShocker :lol

Great, now we have Wizard Infinity Dragon to start this whole conversation over again. But I think I can say its definitely his Final Form

I hope it is. He has enough.

Won't he probably get a new "Final" form during his Movie War with Gaimu?

Fruit, Please! .. No, yea. Wizard can still the hell away from my Orange Armored Fruit Ninja of Awesome.

You can say that about most Riders though. For Wizard Flame Dragon would have been enough, all the other Dragons are unnecessary, as is all Dragon, Infinity and this new Infinity form.

I'm still confused why Haruto had all the elements and they didn't split it up into four Riders who could then combine their power to make Infinity, that would have worked better in my mind.

DRAGON FRUIT! Please!

Well...Yeah. Lots of forms do tend to border on the unnecessary.

Hey, Wizard's still got less forms than Kuuga, W and OOO.

As for Den-O's final form, I always prefered Liner form because of what it represents. It's Ryotaro coming into his own and showing that he has what it takes to fight the monsters without being posessed. Liner form is Ryotaro using the Imagin's powers to fight instead of them using his body. Climax form is presented as more of a joke, a 'everybody dogpile on Ryotaro' kind of thing. Heck, Climax's first appearance consists of Momo complaing about how much the transformation sucks for him.

I know there's lots of good arguments for Climax to be the final form, but for me it boils down to whether I consider Ryotaro or the Imagin to be the 'real' Den-O. And I've always favoured Ryotaro as being Den-O.

Don't forget he was on fire at first for climax form. :p

There's to many posts about it to quite each one, so here's hoping you're paying attention.

Wizard's problem wasn't that there were to many Forms. Wizards problem was all his Forms did the same exact thing as the Lesser Form they were meant to replace. Fire Dragon is just a stronger Fire, Wind Dragon is just a stronger Wind, and so on. Fourze, OOO, W, all of their Upgrades did something different. Magnet was different than Eleki, TaJaDor was different than PuToTyra, Fang Joker was different than Heat Metal. What should've happened was Wizard should've gotten only one single Dragon Form that encompassed all four Styles into one package. It would've been a complete upgrade instead of just a new Form which only slightly upgrades powers he already has. Infinity does this but by then the damage was already done. And I know he needs a special Movie Form but Infinity Dragon just seems lazy somehow. Fourze's Meteor Fusion might look goofy but atleast it wasn't like anything he had before. Nadeshiko Meteor Fusion was needless. It just gave him rockets and skis.. Woo?
Hopefully Gaimu doesn't fall into this trap, and from the look of it so far it doesn't. Each Fruit does something completely different and that's good. But time will tell.

Honestly, I don't figure the Dragon forms to really be their own unique forms so much as a more thorough version of Kuuga's Rising upgrades. A power up that he can apply to each of his base forms. It might have worked better if he just got one 'dragon' ring that he could apply to each of his four styles, but I have no problems with the dragon forms as is.

I heard all Dragon is stronger then infinity. Is this true?

I dunno. The thing with Infinity is it doesn't seem to really do...anything, he gets like a sparkly teleport power and becomes as hard as...diamonds I suppose but that is it while All Dragon allowed him to kick a Phantom into the sun. So if this is the caps of both of their powers, then All Dragon is stronger, if not and Infinity is still waiting to actually do something then....

Of course we have to wait and see how Wizard's Final strike turns out, with it being a combo of all dragon and infinity.

Wait, could Final Strike be similar to how when a Rider dies in Ryuki, a contract monster eats its energy..... So could Haruto finally be feeding his Phantom? Orma is in for some serious hell when he gdts Rider kicked by Infinity Dragon

That's almost exactly what I said :eyebrow

Infinity is supossed to be the ultimate expression of the power he shares with Dragon. But apparently we have an Infinity Dragon coming soon. So that'll be the ultimate ultimate expression of his power with Dragon. How much closer to the Phantom could he get?! As for which is stronger. It's hard knowing with Wizard. The writer's keep deliberately changing the power ceiling of each form on a near weekly basis. Wizard, the Aizen/Goku of Kamen Rider.

My guess it'll still look like he's a bald silver RingPop.

But Infinity is nothing like his inner Dragon, so really All Dragon should be his Final Form as that is him becoming a Dragon basically. Or this new Infinity Dragon. Infinity just doesn't really fit with Wizard's theme at all.

I thought wizard's theme was rings? :eyebrow

I relate Wizard more to Dragons than I do Rings, the Rings are conduits for his power granted, but his power is shaped around his Inner Dragon Phantom.

Wizard's theme seems to be Rings and shiney Bracelets that give him more power. Infinity is the expression of his inner dragon they pretty said so during the dialogue between him and dragon before he got the power. But it's to much. Atleast OOO combinations all did something different. Wizard.. Yea, I think he has enough power upgrades now.

Then EVERYONE's theme in the show is Rings, since every Rider in this show has Rings containing magic, which is why I relate each Rider to their own individual theme, not just their armoury. And I don't really remember anything about the Infinity arc other than Haruto going super saiyan over Koyomi.

I still think Wizard should have had one Rider for each element.

Like I said: Wizard, he's Aizen and Goku in one RingPop Headed Package.

I tend to compare All Dragon and Infinity to Kuuga's two strongest forms: Amazing Mighty and Ultimate. All Dragon and Amazing Mighty are both the ultimate evolution of the Rider's bastardized powers (Kuuga's Rising forms, Wizard's Dragon forms), whereas Ultimate and Infinity represent a truer and more powerful form. Like how the Rising forms were created by Yusuke electrocuting himself and changing his belt's powers, Haruto's dragon forms call on his inner Phantom. Infinity, like Ultimate, seems to be more of the final extension of the Riders' untainted powers - Ultimate isn't based off of the Rising forms, Infinity isn't based on the Dragon.

I guess that makes Infinity Dragon the Rising Ultimate of Wizard. Only less ugly and stupid and Decadey.

I actually liked Rising Ultimate a bit better than Ultimate...

I kinda forgot about Kuuga's final forms because if I remember correctly he got like four forms over like two episodes. And one was introduced, only to be useless the next episode and one he turned into only then to fight without it metaphysically or some shit.

I like the SIC version, it's actually one of my favorite Kiwami Tamashiis. The real suit just doesn't look good to me, though.

The SIC is what sold me on the design to begin with.

Actually I like Rising Ultimate Kuuga better then Ultimate, maybe for me its an issue of having more gold then 90% black Ultimate form.

IMO Liner is Den-O's "Final Form" just like how Putotyra is the final form of OOO. Super Climax feels like more of an "exclusive" i.e. Super Tatoba.

Personally, Infinity Style is equally my favorite along with Cosmic.