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-   -   Do you think we'll ever get a 'dark' series again? (https://www.tokunation.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65339)

Matrixbeast 01-05-2014 05:16 PM
I'll never see the likes of Kuuga as mature, personally. It can be as dark as Shaq, but it's almost childish in it's attempts to make a monster a threat.

I think Blade was my favorite for a monster's MO. Rampaging to reset the planet? I love it. It gave the monsters a visceral feel without being an over the top toku love letter to Liefeld.

Fourze possibly has the largest threatening monsters, when you look into it.
The bullied kid can become a titan who can choke a bitch? The nerdy stalker can become a mantis what can control magnetism?

Making monsters the broken, the bullied, the beaten, the angry, the quick-tempered, and the confused kids of a high school.
Sure, worlds won't end and they won't have body counts equaling that of a small nation, but it's darker than "Bodies hit the floor. We're edgy!"

KyoryuBlue 01-05-2014 05:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Switchblade (Post 282362)
I think Gaim is as "dark" of a series as we're going to get now. Toei's current approach seems to be to move away from gory deaths and high body counts like we got around 2000/01. I'm not going to pretend for one second that I don't kind of miss that (Kuuga and Agito are two of my favorite Rider shows, after all), but recently Toei's been more into monsters that try to make people feel bad rather than kill them. We seem to be getting a bit more mindless rampaging in Gaim, but we're not going to see a bunch of dudes get stabbed and then dissolve into sand anymore.

Storywise, Gaim is shaking up to be pretty dark, but it's more of a psychological darkness than a violent one. We're dealing with a show where a big corporation is handing out powerful weapons to teenagers to see what will happen. There's no monsters eating people, but that's still pretty fucked up. I think that's what we're going to see from "dark" Rider shows - stories with more mature plot twists and creepy motives rather than mountains of corpses.

Personally, I'm largely fine with that. I do miss the days when monsters seemed like a legitimate threat to everyone. It gave the show a bit more edge and made the monsters more terrifying. I will always maintain that Ryuki had the scariest set-up of any Rider series - behind any reflective surface there could be a horrifying creature that could suddenly reach out, grab you, and then drag you off to be lunch. Stuff like that always felt like the stakes were higher than "we have to stop that Phantom from smashing that little boy's model airplane or else he'll be sad!" But we're not going to get that anymore. I think Gaim is a good compromise, though; the beasts rampage, but aren't going on killing sprees, and the real horror is what the people behind the monsters are up to.
They are a threat, when the people are the monsters.

Switchblade 01-05-2014 05:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyoryuBlue (Post 282368)
They are a threat, when the people are the monsters.
Sure, they could be, but usually they weren't. And that's less the monster's fault and more the "victim of the week" pattern that the show was stuck in for the last few years. Matrix mentioned the Undead a couple posts up - the Undead were scary because they could turn up anywhere and attack anyone. Dopants, Greed, Zodiarts, Phantoms, etc... they picked one person and messed with them. It made it easier to cast guest actors, but it led to an unavoidable lessening of scale in terms of the kinds of threats the monsters posed (especially in Wizard).

Locke 01-05-2014 05:42 PM
The difference is the humanity.

As stupid as Wizard's of the week plots were - and they were often as boring as they were stupid - the whole 'I want to stop that kid being sad' is a human story, built on emotion, not on mindless suffering. We had too much focus on the Gate's to be fair, but it was nice to understand them, so the people Haruto were saving didn't just function as window dressing. Sure Kuuga was full of carnage and gore, but it also had no soul or heart either, as it never focused on the people inside the carnage and what they were feeling, they had no faces, no names and we had no reason to care about the individual, or the mass either.

SPLIT LIP 01-05-2014 05:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Locke (Post 282380)
The difference is the humanity.

As stupid as Wizard's of the week plots were - and they were often as boring as they were stupid - the whole 'I want to stop that kid being sad' is a human story, built on emotion, not on mindless suffering.
This is true.

Modern rider shows at least treat people as people, not just meat stacks to be bludgeoned.

Gatack 01-05-2014 05:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Locke (Post 282380)
The difference is the humanity.

As stupid as Wizard's of the week plots were - and they were often as boring as they were stupid - the whole 'I want to stop that kid being sad' is a human story, built on emotion, not on mindless suffering. We had too much focus on the Gate's to be fair, but it was nice to understand them, so the people Haruto were saving didn't just function as window dressing. Sure Kuuga was full of carnage and gore, but it also had no soul or heart either, as it never focused on the people inside the carnage and what they were feeling, they had no faces, no names and we had no reason to care about the individual, or the mass either.
"I want to stop that kid being sad" is a human story, where as "I want to stop that kid from being killed" isn't? You don't need to place a face, name and 3/4 of an episode of backstory on one person to know people dying is bad and holds gravitas whether it's spelt out for you or not. It's even more unrealistic for a hero to coincidentally meet every victim of the week and save them from a laughable threat, in my opinion.

I liked the gore and carnage of kuuga, mindless/arrogant/whatever word you want to describe it as. Though don't be ignorant of Kuuga's story and mythos and act as if it's just visually dark, It was a nice contrast to super sentai. Now I'm not saying Kamen Rider should always be all gore, all grimdark, all the time. Definitely not. Though there are aspects, themes and overall tone I miss from those series. The past 4 years, it's been very focused on the opposite which is good for contrast and mixing it up but I am curious if thats permanent or if we will see a return to that kind of Kamen Rider.

Someone mentioned W earlier, I loved the humour and light-heartedness of that series. It walked a very hard line and i think it got the balance fairly well

Sentai 01-05-2014 05:57 PM
Who wants a series where it's completely dark, gritty, and serious? A Kamen Rider show should have a bit of everything. Heart, Humor, and Seriousness.

Which is why Gaim is so damned perfect. Embrace the Juicy! EMBRACE IT!

Gatack 01-05-2014 05:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentai (Post 282390)
Who wants a series where it's completely dark, gritty, and serious? A Kamen Rider show should have a bit of everything. Heart, Humor, and Seriousness.

Which is why Gaim is so damned perfect. Embrace the Juicy! EMBRACE IT!
Do you prefer Adam West Batman or Nolan Batman?

SPLIT LIP 01-05-2014 06:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatack (Post 282388)
"I want to stop that kid being sad" is a human story, where as "I want to stop that kid from being killed" isn't?
Not when it's handled in such an inhuman way.

Quote:
]You don't need to place a face, name and 3/4 of an episode of backstory on one person to know people dying is bad and holds gravitas whether it's spelt out for you or not.
Actually, yes you do. If you want REAL gravitas, and REAL weight, and not just make this person seem like a disposable nobody.

When a show knocks off folks every episode, it starts to lose weight fast. If all normal people do is die, why should we feel bad? It's not like they're real people, just bland non-characters, thus the effect lessens considerably.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatack (Post 282391)
Do you prefer Adam West Batman or Nolan Batman?
What about The Animated Series Batman? Or Keaton Batman?

Sentai 01-05-2014 06:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatack (Post 282391)
Do you prefer Adam West Batman or Nolan Batman?
Neither. Adam West is to campy, and Nolan didn't know WTF he was doing.

Tim Burton Batman.

Blade Raider 01-05-2014 06:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentai (Post 282393)
Neither. Adam West is to campy, and Nolan didn't know WTF he was doing.

Tim Burton Batman.
Needs more Kevin Conroy. :p

SPLIT LIP 01-05-2014 06:04 PM
Nolan Batman isn't bad, but it's an excellent alegory for this conversation-

Actually, you know what's a REALLY good comparrison here?

Man of Steel. You know, that movie that took a bright, uplifting and hopeful character like Superman and put that same inane "grim and gritty" filter on him combined with ludicrously pretentious comparrisons to JESUS and calling him inspiring despite never doing anything inspiring? Just like Kamen Rider, Superman is somethign that doesn't need to be dark, incredibly serious, or devoid of humour. At least not in the way Gatack describes. It's taking something that's heart lies in being bright and encouraging and making it dark and grim and coming off as entirely pretentious and boring as a result.

Superman doesn't work as "dark." Neither does Kamen Rider. As Locke has put over and over, it really undercuts your hero's cred when so many lives are lost on his watch and he doesn't give a shit except for, like, maybe one or two. And that's inevitable when you demand constant deaths. The hero can't react realistically to every single one, so he can't react to any without seeming inconsistent. It's a writer's trap too many fall into. Heroes save lives, but if everyone dies anyway, are they really heroes at all?

I think this is why Ryuki was also good to me. It had death, but it was periodic. Yeah it seemed weird at times when someone died in front of him and he wasn't as shocked as later times, but because they bodycount was relatively low (probably helped with the Riders themselves being the main source of deaths, which of course fit right in with Ryuki's attempt to stop the fighting) he didn't seem ineffectual. In fact, I can easily say he saved more innocents then he let die, despite every show around him being the opposite.

Switchblade 01-05-2014 06:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Locke (Post 282380)
The difference is the humanity.

As stupid as Wizard's of the week plots were - and they were often as boring as they were stupid - the whole 'I want to stop that kid being sad' is a human story, built on emotion, not on mindless suffering. We had too much focus on the Gate's to be fair, but it was nice to understand them, so the people Haruto were saving didn't just function as window dressing. Sure Kuuga was full of carnage and gore, but it also had no soul or heart either, as it never focused on the people inside the carnage and what they were feeling, they had no faces, no names and we had no reason to care about the individual, or the mass either.
That's an entirely valid point. Personally, though, I prefer my Riders to be the sole hero (or small group of heroes) holding back the seemingly unstoppable tide of evil. If I have to pick between Shocker trying to take over the world or Gamou wanting to meet aliens, I want Shocker. Not that the other story isn't valid, I just like the other one more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentai (Post 282393)
Neither. Adam West is to campy, and Nolan didn't know WTF he was doing.

Tim Burton Batman.
Thank you for not saying Schumacher.

Gatack 01-05-2014 06:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP (Post 282392)
Not when it's handled in such an inhuman way.

Actually, yes you do. If you want REAL gravitas, and REAL weight, and not just make this person seem like a disposable nobody.

When a show knocks off folks every episode, it starts to lose weight fast. If all normal people do is die, why should we feel bad? It's not like they're real people, just bland non-characters, thus the effect lessens considerably.

What about The Animated Series Batman? Or Keaton Batman?
Right...so you turn on the news and see hundreds of people died. You dont care because you dont know their names or favourite colour? People die a lot every day, that's real. If we're going to keep using Kuuga as a bashing bag, then at least consider the fact the show spans multiple cities and Godai isn't going to know every person. The grongi's MO is mass murder. That doesn't make it a bad show

Yes, actual characters built up overtime dying has more impact in story telling than ones you dont know. But in this case, victim of the week being sad without real danger to their life versus someone shown being killed in coldblood, the latter is more impactful in my opinion. If you disagree, fair enough dude, leave it there.

Look dude, if you don't like Kamen Rider being darker than that's cool, good for you man but I started this thread to discuss the likelihood of that returning. You would think that'd attract like minded people, not the opposite. I think it's best you find another topic more tuned to your liking

Oh and BtAS is one of the darkest and most serious cartoons of its time so dont try that

Sentai 01-05-2014 06:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatack (Post 282404)
Right...so you turn on the news and see hundreds of people died. You dont care because you dont know their names or favourite colour? People die a lot every day, that's real. If we're going to keep using Kuuga as a bashing bag, then at least consider the fact the show spans multiple cities and Godai isn't going to know every person. The grongi's MO is mass murder. That doesn't make it a bad show

Yes, actual characters built up overtime dying has more impact in story telling than ones you dont know. But in this case, victim of the week being sad without real danger to their life versus someone shown being killed in coldblood, the latter is more impactful in my opinion. If you disagree, fair enough dude, leave it there.

Look dude, if you don't like Kamen Rider being darker than that's cool, good for you man but I started this thread to discuss the likelihood of that returning. You would think that'd attract like minded people, not the opposite. I think it's best you find another topic more tuned to your liking

Oh and BtAS is one of the darkest and most serious cartoons of its time so dont try that
And that was not close to what he was saying.

And let's try being more civil, Gatack. There's no reason to belittle someone else just because they don't agree with you.

SPLIT LIP 01-05-2014 06:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatack (Post 282404)
People die a lot every day, that's real.
Kamen Rider is not real. It will never be real. If you cannot understand how circumstances in a TV show are different in real life, I don't know what to tell you. Nobody really dies in Kamen Rider, because it's a fake TV show. That's why they have to SELL us on the death, make us believe it WAS a reae person who died, because it isn't.

I should not be explaining the difference between TV shows and real people dying.

Quote:
Oh and BtAS is one of the darkest and most serious cartoons of its time so dont try that
And yet hardly a single character died in the entire run. Also, the second episode had Btaman fighting giant nutcrackers and Joker riding a Christmas tree rocket out of prison.

Funny how that works. You perfectly proved my point. BTAS managed to be dark and serious WITHOUT gratuitous death and gore. Gaim is actually frightening similar to BTAS in tone. Light-hearted, sometimes goofy, but knows when to be serious. The only difference is Batman is visually dark.

Gatack 01-05-2014 06:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP (Post 282398)
Just like Kamen Rider, Superman is somethign that doesn't need to be dark, incredibly serious, or devoid of humour. At least not in the way Gatack describes.
Just stop dude, it's getting boring. Don't put words in my mouth. Never once said Kamen Rider had to be 100% dark and devoid of humour. It's a tone and aspect that has gone missing and I wanted to discuss it's possible return.

Every KR series has humour in it, some more so than others

Locke 01-05-2014 06:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatack (Post 282388)
"I want to stop that kid being sad" is a human story, where as "I want to stop that kid from being killed" isn't? You don't need to place a face, name and 3/4 of an episode of backstory on one person to know people dying is bad and holds gravitas whether it's spelt out for you or not. It's even more unrealistic for a hero to coincidentally meet every victim of the week and save them from a laughable threat, in my opinion.

I liked the gore and carnage of kuuga, mindless/arrogant/whatever word you want to describe it as. Though don't be ignorant of Kuuga's story and mythos and act as if it's just visually dark, It was a nice contrast to super sentai. Now I'm not saying Kamen Rider should always be all gore, all grimdark, all the time. Definitely not. Though there are aspects, themes and overall tone I miss from those series. The past 4 years, it's been very focused on the opposite which is good for contrast and mixing it up but I am curious if thats permanent or if we will see a return to that kind of Kamen Rider.

Someone mentioned W earlier, I loved the humour and light-heartedness of that series. It walked a very hard line and i think it got the balance fairly well
My Mum's death means more to me than when I hear hundreds died in a suicide bombing in the East. The death still impacts me, I'm human and have natural compassion for other humans, but when all I have are numbers I can only care at the most basic of compassion.

When I KNOW who died, and the show made me give a damn about them, then damn right it impacts me way more. This is exactly true of the 'sad kid', 'dead kid' scenario. If I can name the sad kid, tell you his favourite food and what motivates him in life then we've become friends and I care if you're sad. If the dead kid is simply the number 'fifteen' in the body count list (number fifteen out of TEN GAJILLION) and simply addressed to as 'dead kid' I can only care on the base shocks of dead children.

SPLIT LIP 01-05-2014 06:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatack (Post 282411)
Just stop dude, it's getting boring.
Is it, though?

Because I'm actually finding it quite relieving to deconstruct themes and tones and see how they work.

Quote:
Don't put words in my mouth. Never once said Kamen Rider had to be 100% dark and devoid of humour.
You keep saying that, yet you more than once basically said the days of dark and serious rider shows are behind us.

Quote:
It's a tone and aspect that has gone missing and I wanted to discuss it's possible return.
And we are. Just because we're not giving you the answer you specifically wanted, doesn't mean it's not an answer.

Sentai 01-05-2014 06:28 PM
I am closing this thread. The arguement is getting out of hand and has long since moved beyond reasoned debate, which should happen on this forum. Everyone please remember that this is a Haven. We welcome debate, we want you to have differing opinions, and also share what you love. But when it turns into patronizing and worse.. Then we have no choice but to act.

Think before you Post. Please.


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