This show had so many pointless characters come to think of it. It's like for half of the cast, they couldn't figure out what to do with them past whatever 2 episode story arc they had with them.

Onari is completely useless and only served to be annoying comic relief. He doesn't even function well as the surprisingly wise, yet goofy monk-type character, because he continuously makes stupid and short-sighted decisions while Akari is the one actually pushing Takeru forward. He mentioned some sort of "dark past" prior to becoming a monk, but it's never mentioned again after that. It would have been a nice way to set up for Onari holding Takeru back from killing Adel, but there goes another missed opportunity.

Once Kanon stopped being a morality pet for Alain and Makoto, she was pretty much just there to be something for Makoto to worry about. And even then, she wasn't particularly great at that since other factors played a bigger role in their respective redemptions.

Speaking of Makoto, I'm not sure if he even has a personality. They were on to something early on when he had that rivalry with Takeru and had that whole "I've got to become stronger!" thing going on. Sure, it would have been hella cliche, but it'd give him...SOMETHING, other than being Takeru's 100% loyal sidekick that occasionally obsesses over his sister.

Narita was even more pointless having around than Kanon, and Shibuya was left completely ignored once his two episode story arc was over.

Takeru, Alain and Akari were pretty much the only characters out of the entire main cast that stood out to me as full-fledged characters. Everyone else was ridiculously one-note.

I guess this another one of those things where I just look at it really differently from everyone else. I don't really feel every character in a show needs to serve a purpose to the Plot at all times. I'd argue it feels more 'real' in a sense to not have everyone just be a tool for the narrative.

Onari may not have some big moment to shine but he's Takeru's friend and that's significant in of itself for the sort of show Ghost is. Not to mention all the little moments he has. It's like that for everyone.

Also Makoto is fine. He's an idiot who tries really hard to atone for his stint as a villain by being the loyal sidekick. The idea of having him be some Shonen rival character seems way more horrible to me.

I'd be okay with this if these weren't characters that we've spent the past 48 episodes with but they are. It'd actually be more 'real' if they were actual people instead of background filler.

The problem with Onari is that, for as much as he claims to be Takeru's friend and as much as the show tries to tell us that he's wise, it's hard to buy it. Takeru is like 10 days from dying for good and Onari does something remarkably stupid just because he wants attention. We're "told" he's wise, but he never does anything that would suggest that.

I'm not saying he's a Shonen rival but give him SOME sort of character arc that isn't totally centered around being a Takeru fanboy. Like I said, these are actual people. Makoto should have his own goals and dreams outside of Takeru. This is something they did well with Alain, that's why he feels like an actual character and not just another guy that fights alongside Takeru. Even the 15 Heroic eyecons feel like more of a character than Makoto.

You mean the thing with possessing Alain? Because I don't feel it's fair to complain the characters don't feel like people and then reject the show for having them act like people. The show made it a point as early as episode 3 that Onari hates feeling useless. It's not as simple as him just wanting attention. He thought he would be the big hero and finally help out and it's a humbling moment for him when he realizes he's in over his head.

What's wrong with Makoto's character centering on others, for that matter? I'm sure he'd have plenty of dreams if he weren't so busy fighting Gamma. He's someone who REALLY values his friends and goes to great lengths to protect them. He's not as fleshed-out as Takeru or Alain but he HAS a personality.

Ya know, I was so hyped for Makoto as a character when he was introduced, cuz one of the interesting things I liked about his motivation of hatred for Takeru early in the Series was just the fact that he hated that while he & Kanon were suffering in the Ganma World for 10 years(which BTW, the story STILL hasn't really fleshed out, nor have they kept very consistent with that considering the flashbacks we HAVE seen), Takeru & the others were, at least to him, just living their normal lives and not bothering to try anything to save them. I thought this was something Takeru would seriously have to address in order to win over Makoto. But what happened? Takeru simply revived Kanon, and all of a sudden he was cool with him. I HATED that quick transition....

What's inconsistent about it?

All of a sudden? Considering he saved her life at the expense of his own that's hardly an insignificant gesture on Takeru's part.

In all the flashbacks we've seen of the Ganma World, none have portrayed it to be a "living hell" as Makoto described it. At its worst, two people died due to simple sickness.


But it still doesn't address why Takeru & the others just didn't do anything for the past 10 years in order to save him and Kanon. In fact, I don't think Takeru has ever outright apologized for that! I always was under the impression that that was the stem of Makoto's hatred for Takeru, so Takeru simply saving Kanon in place of himself, while nice & all, shouldn't have resolved that issue so easily. It should've just had Makoto somewhat more open to Takeru, sure, but it shouldn't have been the thing that made him completely buddies with him again all of a sudden.

You just took his word for that? Makoto was in a pretty emo mood at the time, I don't think it's an error that his description doesn't match up with what actually happened.

I guess that would've made for good drama but to be fair to Takeru he was like seven years old and not at all in the know about ghost-related stuff at the time. His actions say he's sorry more than words would, too. Specter is a giant a**hole to him but Takeru constantly tries to help him once he figures out the truth, and him saving Kanon is the thing that finally makes Makoto understand how stupid he's been acting.

It's an error because, for a while, Makoto was our only account of the Ganma World, and it led to a lot of buildup and expectations that it didn't even come close to meeting. And it wasn't an intentional subversion either, because Makoto isn't an established liar/drama queen. Was he going through his typical secondary Rider/Shonen rival phase at the time? Sure. But that doesn't mean what he went through wasn't legitimate suffering, and clearly the story treats it as such, because it's said to be one of the reasons for his now cold, super-serious demeanor in the first place (among Kanon turning into an Eyecon). Saying "Nah, he's just a crybaby" completely undermines his character and furthermore, even if we did accept that his description of events is intentionally off-base from reality, it makes him look like an even blander character, because now we know that what he went through wasn't even real.

A good show doesn't constantly require the audience to make excuses for plot holes and plot inconsistencies.

Umm, YEA I took his word for that, because that's not really something that would be overexaggerated to the point where it's completely inconsistent to what we've seen....Him being in an "emo" mood was BECAUSE of Takeru & the others leaving them in such a world...If the Ganma World was nice & all, he wouldn't have been making this such a big deal now would he?


I'm not quite sure how saving his sister once pays for 10 years of "hell" in the Ganma World as children, personally.....but that's just me...

But it would be exaggerated because he's talking TO Takeru in the scene in question. It'd make sense he'd word it in the worst way possible to really get across how pissed he is at him. It's not like he went around saying that to everyone. And it's not even that inconsistent because...

...It wasn't nice! His sister lost her body and barely anyone even acknowledged their existence for the longest time. Just because he wasn't in constant suffering doesn't mean it didn't suck. The sky is blood red over there, for god's sake.

It pays for it because Takeru did exactly the thing Makoto wanted when he could've just as easily saved himself. This wasn't some minor thing either. He basically gave up his own life so Kanon could have hers back. I don't see how it only being "once" is relevant. Kanon being stuck as an Eyecon was the crux of his anger in the first place too so it makes sense he'd chill out after that stops being an issue.

I'm not complaining because he's acting like a person. I'm complaining because the show had him do something completely selfish for forced comedy during the tail end of the show, and this is almost directly following a speech where everyone talks about how hard they're working to bring Takeru back to life, including Onari. Then he goes and does something that directly hinders that goal where even the most useless character on the cast (Kanon) at least stays out of the way so as to not impede their progress.

And then when all is said and done, Akari throws out some half-assed line about how Takeru "needs him" even though he continues to do nothing of importance throughout the rest of the show. It's fine for a character to feel useless, but unlike Akari, who gets visibly frustrated and desperately seeks out solutions to problems when she feels useless, Onari just continues to chew up the scenery and generally annoy everybody.

The problem is Makoto does not stand out as a character in the slightest. He's basically just another person there to fawn over Takeru. It would have been interesting if they maybe kept the self-guilt part of his character as a recurring thing throughout the show, but it's only ever mentioned like twice. I would have liked to see Makoto maybe keep a reluctant ally thing going on with Takeru, where he's still pissed about nobody bothering to look for him in the Ganma World, and then Takeru sacrifices himself for Makoto somewhere down the road, showing to him the legitimacy of their friendship. It'd give a little bit more depth to Makoto.

But this is still inconsistent with Makoto's character. Sure, he had his rage moments, but he isn't a drama queen. What he felt was legitimate since it sparked his anger and to him, it probably DID feel like Hell.


I'm not buying this whole "He only phrased it that way to emphasize how pissed he is at Takeru" thing because surely some part of it MUST have been how he described it, otherwise it makes him look borderline emotionally manipulative, exaggerating his feelings to make someone else feel like shit. And somehow, I don't think that's what the writers intended.

Complaining about him being selfish is exactly what I meant by complaining about him acting like a person, and I just explained there's more to it that just (I can only be so delusional, that IS clearly a big part of it) "oh look, Onari's doing something wacky again."

Her followup to that being because "we're a team". She's not telling him he's super useful (because he isn't), she's saying they care about him regardless.


They don't need to mention it because it drives most of his actions anyway. That guilt is exactly why he's such a generic sidekick character in the first place. Makoto has played far too big a role in the plot to be considered just another person fawning over Takeru. He's THE person fawning over Takeru. And Alain, for that matter.

I didn't say "only", that's just part of it. A small part, even.

Trust me, he was kind of a drama queen in those episodes. Takeru and Kanon even mention how it feels like he's "forcing himself" to act how he does. He's really not himself when we first meet him.

Right, and I'm sorry if I didn't word that clearly enough. He's exaggerating, but only so much. This is why I mentioned how much being in the Ganma world DID suck for him. It's absolutely not "completely inconsistent" that he would describe it as hell.

Except Onari's never shown himself to be selfish before. Utterly and irredeemably annoying? Sure. But in the earlier episodes he at least tried to be semi-useful. Then all of a sudden he does something that's crazy selfish that the other characters just totally brush off.

And there's other ways to get across Onari's feelings of inadequacy without having him act like a prick. Akari went through pretty much the same sort of feelings without being a detriment to the group. So did Mach in Drive, and even Alain for a brief period of time.

She still told him that Takeru "needs him" even though it's clear as day to the audience that no, he really doesn't. He's "moral support", which is basically the same as saying "You serve no practical function on this team but at least you can be a victory cigar or something".

Just because it's his reason for being a generic sidekick character doesn't mean that he's not a generic sidekick character anymore, and being generic is generally a bad thing.

Really now, it sounds like you're making excuses for why things are bad in this show. Him being a generic sidekick character because of his guilt doesn't make him any more interesting of a character and that's precisely what the problem is.

But there's still no evidence to support your argument. Nothing in the show suggests that the Ganma World wasn't totally a living Hell from him, other than the fact that we see it later and it's not so bad. Normally, I could accept this as solid evidence, but the show doesn't even acknowledge the huge discrepancy between what Makoto said and what the world is actually like, which leads me to believe that it's a case of writers having the characters say and do things and just totally forgetting about it once the plot goes in a different direction, which seems to be an overall trend for Ghost.

Could you please explain what you want a pair of seven/eight-year-old children to do? They didn't even know what happened, and we don't know how Ryu explained it, either. For all we know, he could have died the next day or something.

Well I'm certainly in over my head with this one. I think I even said last week I wouldn't be that defensive of Onari or Makoto too...

But he's always had a certain level of arrogance, and constantly overestimates his own helpfulness, like picking a fight with the Knife Ganma. I need to stress I'm not trying to say Onari is some great character, just that his crappy characterization is consistent.

Fair enough.

Wait, now I'm confused, what the f*** are we even arguing about here anymore?

Are you saying nothing in episodes 1-11 suggests the Ganma World wasn't actually hell for him? Because the point I was trying to get at (really poorly) is that Makoto's description is just his perspective. He'd describe it as hell because to him, it was. There's no discrepancy. I wasn't trying to say he was manipulating Takeru or anything. The writers didn't just make up what the Ganma world is like later on. Everything you see in that first arc is consistent with what you see later. Makoto's relationship with Alain, all of Javert's dialogue, Makoto even having a Ghost Driver; Yurusen mentions early on the reason Gramps doesn't show up half the time is because he's "busy", wonder what that could mean?

Can I also reiterate this bit? I don't even think Makoto's problem was that they "left him there" but instead that he gets back and nobody seems to remember him and Kanon.

I loved so much about this episode it was great. First of all I have to mention that Onari, Akari, and Kanon all kicking ass against the grunts was great I'm glad they were able to do that. Also that their training paid off finally. The Dual Spectre's I loved because that the Makoto Replica also connected with Takeru and realized he was basically everything Makoto was and helped Makoto come back. Makoto's sacrifice was great because that just shows how much he has grown and how much he cares about his friends. Takeru is just freaking brilliant from beating the crap out of Adel because he hurt Alain to being able to calm down and save Adel. He finally connected Adel to his family's feelings and was able to save him. Takeru was able to get past his own feelings for his father's killer and save him because he's one of his friend's brother; I think that is just a testament to how strong Takeru has grown. Alain also going from trying to stop Adel no matter the cost to realizing he wanted to save his brother was great too. I even loved Igor's moment of saving Akari that was great as well showing that even he had his own feelings and not wanting to be a slave. I honestly felt really sad with what happened to Adel being taken over by the Ganmaizers and it ended up with him being destroyed because he could have finally had a chance of redemption. The Ganmaizers taking control was intriguing and actually makes it more interesting that they have had there own plans in the works here without Adel. Also, all the Luminaries coming out and beating the Ganmaizers and allowing Takeru to reach Adel was just a badass scene. I can't wait for the next episode that looks like a huge battle.

The problem with Onari is that he only has one consistent motivation in the series: do stuff that the writers think is funny. Why does he randomly start pretending to talk to the Goemon Eyecon? Because the writers think it's funny. Why does he randomly start drawing on Alain's face when he's asleep? Because of a long-standing rivalry or some kind of resentment? No, because the writers think it's funny. Why did he randomly endanger everything by stealing Alain's body? It wasn't because he was feeling left out, it's because the writers thought it would be funny to see Alain's actor mugging and gurning like Onari. There is no deeper motivation behind anything he does other than to be cheap, brainless comic relief.

It's more like that's 75% of the motivation but I feel you.

You know man, I really envy your ability to say your piece on an episode and then stop. I wish I could be that chill about liking Ghost.

Thanks, though I have to defend it everywhere else lol. Though I am perfectly happy about living in my crazy wonderland of loving Ghost.

Of course you would, I didn't like it the first half I apparently would have to do homework by rewatching it and maybe take notes to understand more than the main things and the later half just seem to introduce new things that go no where other than "oh did you know" that could of been done more with if it was 25 episodes long and over in a few episode. But I do like the mobile suits I even have a mack knife gunpla that I like.

Ok I will slightly defend this only because if you have a marker suddenly in your hand, someone sleeping near you, and a good chance to get away with it the thought would be tempting. But as for the rest, honestly Onari could be a really good character but that seems like it will only happen if he was in a different show or had a different writer.

I do know of one way that they could try to save his character, but they will not do it and I am not sure it will work.

I hate you out of envy

Let's be clear, G-Reco is on a TOTALLY different level than Ghost when it comes to being impossibly dense. I never felt completely lost or anything, but I actually did rewatch it, and I'm kind of amazed how much more sense it made the second time around. But that's a topic for a different thread (that I probably won't go in because man if you think I have unpopular opinions on Kamen Rider...).

Oh, and I'd just like to throw in that Onari's kinship with Goemon makes a lot of sense and the gag actually builds on itself over several episodes, which elevates it above a lot of Onari-related humor.

Except one of Onari's main recurring traits is being super respectful. It doesn't make any sense for him to vandalize Alain, given he had no obvious issues with him before he did it.

The heck kinda question is this??? You're acting like I'm questioning Takeru & the others not doing anything. I'm not questioning why they didn't do anything. I'm questioning why they never gave Makoto an explanation for why they didn't/couldn't do anything. Makoto honestly is entitled to recieve such an answer at the very least, considering his circumstances(or at least the description of them). But from what I recall, Takeru never addressed that question.

I should rephrase a little bit here. Even if the Ganma World isn't as bad as Makoto's description would lead us to believe, for him it was that bad and it's a crucial piece of his character development, so the audience should at least feel that way.


But then we come to find out that what makes the Ganma World really suck is that it used to be a beautiful place, but then the Ganma had to watch the world go to shit as their dreams of this society started to be crushed more and more (mostly because Adonis had this naive notion of death and suffering being a thing that should never happen). That's not something that Makoto or Kanon got the chance to really experience and not long after they arrived, they had people taking care of them and offering them their friendship. Sure, they were separated from friends and family, but that's not a reason to describe the Ganma World itself as "hell".

You could argue that the general state of decay is what caused Makoto to describe it like that, but when people talk about Hell, they usually refer to actual pain and suffering, not just a red sky.

Just gonna interject here a little, wasn't Makoto kind of brought up as some kind of soldier in the Ganma world? We only ever really see him being tested in combat during the flashbacks of his time there, at least as an adult. I can imagine that being pretty grueling after a while. Plus, the atmosphere of the place took Kanon away from him, so I can completely understand his resentment for the world itself.

That's what I'm saying though, he isn't describing the world itself, he's talking about his experience there with that line. I think being separated from everyone and everything you love for 10 years qualifies decently enough as "hell" on that level. Certainly "hellish", no?

Also all this stuff. I'm kind of amazed this has gone on this long. I know my credibility is hurt by how willing I am to jump to the defense of pretty much anything in Ghost but I'm like 110% positive this part is objectively explicable.

Yurusen calls it hell at one point. Not in relation to Makoto, just "It's hell there, isn't it?"

Yurusen isn't exactly the most reliable source of unbiased, objective information either. And it does kind of suck over there. I'd be more obliged to call plot-hole on this if, like, Alain or somebody went around talking about how awful the Ganma World is all the time, but they don't.

That reminds me - is there any actual explanation as to what the hell Yurusen is? I mean on the grand scheme of things I don't really care, I'm just wondering if there was an actual explanation that I somehow missed.

A mascot? I don't recall there being any explanation in the show beyond "thing that helps Gramps out". You just kind of have to roll with it.

I don't think there's been an explanation given for her. I honestly sort of expect an explanation to be included as a throwaway line in the final two episodes.


Perhaps it won't be revealed at all, or perhaps it will be revealed later in some sort of Ghost Gaiden special (if it gets one, I don't know if this series has been having the same success as Gaim and Drive over in Japan).

I wouldn't get your hopes up for an explanation. Besides, if they make a V-cinema, I think we all know it's going to be about Onari.

I was honestly thinking about this earlier, and nothing came to me. She remains as one of the few actual ghostly elements in a show that has very much moved to a more scientific basis... as loose as that basis is.

I probably need to go on a proper rant about Ghost at some point. I held out hope for the longest time that it would rally toward the end the way Drive did, but... nope. I watched 41-49 with a friend today, and UGH. The same plot beats, over and over. Alain as Onari was pretty much the only redeeming feature of the arc. The double-Makoto arc seemed ill-thought-out, and essentially came to nothing. Riders destroying the Ganmaizers meant nothing when previously-destroyed Ganmaizers kept reappearing for no apparent reason. Adel makes zero sense as a character. I've watched 49 episodes of Ghost and gave it the benefit of the doubt the whole way, and now, I just feel punked. Drive was better than this. Wizard was better than this. Kiva was better than this. The whole "this Rider is a ghost" premise was wasted. At this point, I NEED Ex-Aid to be better.