That makes no sense. People tell you to watch part 1 before part 2 so you intentionally watch part 2 instead.

Jeeez

When people recommend watching something in a certain order there's generally a reason for it

And I heard those reasons, and disagreed with them being as necessary as made out to be. I believe that seasons should be able to stand on their own, especially when it's something a lot more indirect as Agito and Kuuga and not even something like Black and RX. As such I was very curious to see how a viewing of Agito would go if I hadn't seen Kuuga before and didn't know an awful lot about either going in; especially as, of course, Agito will have been a lot of peoples' first Rider series and would have had to stand on its own without all of its viewers needing to watch Kuuga first.

Would watching Kuuga first have made it interesting to see those parallels? Maybe, but I also think there was a lot of merit and an interesting practise in its own right to watch Agito first, see what it's like on its own without the benefit of context, and then later when watching Kuuga watch parallels unfold in a backwards fashion.

Agito is likely watched best after a viewing of Kuuga, and having seen (and having loved) both I would agree with that, but it's not going to be everyone's experience, and I was interested in seeing what that opposing experience would be like.

I mean, that makes perfect sense to me. Has anyone here really watched all of Kamen Rider in chronological order on their first viewing? Seems like everyone finds a cool aesthetic (Ex-Aid) or hears good things (Gaim, OOO) and jumps in there, then skips around following whatever road map they want.

One of the best things about this fandom are all the weird entry points, and all of the freedom people have to direct their exploration of the franchise. I'm not bothered if folks watch Kamen Rider in a way I wouldn't, just as long as they're still watching Kamen Rider.

I get what you mean, but I couldn't help but think you sound like a supervillain who will force all people everywhere to watch Kamen Rider or else.

Kamen Rider Die's catchphrase: "Your choice is Kamen Rider... Or Die."

fixed

I can't speak for you, but in my case the first episode of Decade was the first time I ever watched anything Kamen Rider-related that wasn't a terrible Saban show from the mid-90s. I really loved that episode, but I also had no idea who the hell any of the other characters showing up in the opening scene were. I knew I could research it, but I decided the best way to go about things was to watch the original shows first. Besides, that way I could really get excited when all of these old actors showed up again to reprise their beloved characters.

Yeah, I, uh... didn't realize until much further down the line that Decade was built around AU replacement characters.

Same, Decade is my first Rider show and watching all those Riders suits is something awe-inspiring even though I don't know the majority of them.

Honestly, you can, it's fine.

I'd gathered that much from some very-early-days wiki dives. (This was before I knew I'd want to watch everything, so there are probably some minor spoilers rattling around in my brain.) Like, I know that it's a different Kuuga in Decade than in Kuuga. I think I want more to get a feel for what each show is, so when Decade does a twist or variation, I'll get why it's a twist or a variation, you know?

Hilariously, my first experience with Decade was a the W Movie War, which is the finale I guess to the entire series? None of that made a lick of sense to me.

That's pretty much how I felt about the Dr. Pac-Man movie, which had the first non-Ex-Aid Riders I'd ever seen. That hero moment, when Ex-Aid, Ghost, Drive, Wizard and Gaim all henshin to take on the villains blew. my. mind.

Thing about Blade is that after the first fifteen eps it is really fun to watch as Sakuya gets his act together, Mutsuki enters the stage, and Hajime's Batman-Superman bromance with Kazuma kicks off.

Yes, me. Well, I started with Kuuga, but starting form their, I went in order until I caught up with Drive, which was in like Episode 10 by the time I caught up.

Neat! What made you start at Kuuga, rather than a more current series?

MASKED RIDER KUUGA EPISODES 7 - 8

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/kuuga/kuuga07.png

There're two stories in this two-parter, an investigative thing with Ichijou and (barely, barely) Sakurako, and an emotional thing with Godai and a Sad Girl. They intertwine at the end in the only way they could, with a monster exploding, but the journey to get there was a little rough.

Some of it's down to how isolated the stakes are in each story. Ichijou is trying to track down a Killer Bee, to stop a string of deaths. (So many deaths! Nearly Showa-level civilian casualties!) Meanwhile, a girl is sad that her dad is dead (All Dads Are Dead) and no one really cares as much as she does. (To be fair, Jean was being a bit of an asshole. Read the room, Jean!) There's probably a way to get those stories connected earlier on, or a way to thematically link the Killer Bee problem to the All Dads Are Dead problem, but Kuuga decides to just keep them siloed. Ichijou tracks down the Killer Bee on his own, while Godai tracks down the Sad Girl on his own. They literally run into each other on the beach to end the story. Godai's more-or-less wrapped up the Sad Girl story, then he wraps up the Killer Bee story. It's not even like one solution helps him with the other problem, there's nothing that connects the one story to the other. It's just two stories strung out across two episodes. Weird. Weird choice.

Each story is... collectively, they're okay at best, but it's definitely got some ups and downs as individual plots. If you turn your brain off, you'll coast through them, but they're only mildly diverting. The first Killer Bee/Kuuga fight has some fun moments, and a new form is always a plus, but there's only maybe five minutes of Kuuga across these episodes. The finale is about a minute, maybe? That leaves Godai with, honestly, a nothing plot about a Sad Girl. She's sad, then she runs off, then we get to see in excruciating detail as Godai checks everywhere in Japan for her, then he finds her, then he tells her her dad wouldn't want her to be sad, and then she isn't? The end? It's so, so far to go for absolutely no nuance. Godai's a fun character, and he's charming in his puppy-dog enthusiasm, but there's just nothing there for a story. The Ichijou plot, as always it seems, is the tighter story, with more engaging a-to-b-to-c plotting. Things happen, there's danger, Ichijou 90% saves the day, it's solid. It's a solid, if basic, story. Forgettable.

These episodes... eh. If they fully committed to Ichijou (and remembered Sakurako existed), I'd enjoy it. If they found a way to make Godai more active and integral, I'd enjoy it. Having just enough Godai to take away Ichijou's successes and not enough to make Godai matter, it's not a great mix. The way scenes work but stories don't, that's a bummer.

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/kuuga/kuuga08.png

I watched the pre-Kiva series in a weird order and not all in one go a long time ago and Kuuga I actually finished last in summer 2012, I did really like Kuuga a lot though. I do kind of miss the feel of Kuuga-Kabuto and Kiva tbh, today's shows just mostly aren't as dark as the 2000s.

yeah that's why I liked Amazons (show) and The First and The Next movies. There was a darker horror element to them.

Even 'W' (the show) had some surprisingly dark moments.

...then again,.. Build had some dark episodes too.

I guess a bit of darkness is just part of the Kamen Rider universe. Which is fine with me.

Definitely without doubt though.... Amazons is the darkest of them all. I don't want to post any spoilers but there's one scene that is one of the most twisted scenes I've seen in a movie.

Personally speaking, I prefer Kamen Rider now.

While not as overtly dark as in the 2000s, it still has a lot of dark subject matter, just tackled better than a lot of murder and violence for seeming shock value, and that coming from someone who loved Faiz.

We have monsters that are allegories for depression and drug use, eldritch abominations from a different planet that try to consume everything, a virus that can erase you from existence, take your face and walk around with it all while you can't do anything to stop it, human experimentation, comatose people so you can more or less harvest their organs, being drowned out of the blue, suffocate in your car thanks to dirt falling attop of you.

Kamen Rider has still a lot of dark tones, they are just, in my opinion, handled better than just senseless violence and murder. I'd argue, with them pushing these themes more into the background they can do far more with them.

This might be an embarrassing confession: I haven't got round to watching Amazons yet! I keep falling behind with a lot of shows, don't ask me about Garo since 2015 because I haven't got a clue!

As someone who much prefers the tone of something like OOO or Drive or Zero-One; I must admit I lament that it seems like nothing with the tone of Kuuga or Agito can be done again? It seems something allowed them to go a lot harder in the past than they do now, and it's a shame that it seems like that can't be done now.

Then again, it might also be that a lot of writers realised that there wasn't much to be done with that tone, and that a lot more can be done with newer writing styles. It's definitely not as if the ability to do some dark and serious shit has gone away as evidenced by Gaim and Build, but they're certainly a lot brighter and fun than stuff like Faiz and I feel it works out more.

I'm pretty sure if something on the level of Kuuga or Agito aired on present day's children programming block, it'd get banned and axed in no time.

That said, a lot of the recent Rider shows have had plenty of darker or mature moments, they just have a lot of fun and levity to go along with it too. Of course, neither dark or lighthearted moments are always executed perfectly, but I think any year-long show that only ever has one tone set in stone would be a lot less compelling than what we've been getting.

Yeah, if you're looking for "dark, violent, horror-inflected Kamen Rider", it's definitely going to be Amazons. There's a, I don't know, a fatalism to Amazons that makes it great if you want a dark, very serious Kamen Rider show, and maybe not so great if you want some variation of tone.

Sticking to one level, "very serious sci-fi horror show", narratively, it's death. It creates a kind of suffocating self-seriousness, which will always sit uneasily next to the monster suits and form changes and Kamen Rider trappings. A full year of that type of show, I mean, shit, even Amazons only did 13 episodes in a season. I'm curious how/if Kuuga keeps it up all series.

Shows like Build excel at telling a lot of different kinds of stories: sad stories, happy stories, funny stories, horror stories, action stories, etc. That flexibility in conception gives them so many more colors to paint with, rather than the monochrome of Dark.

I'm trying to meet Kuuga on its own terms, and not judge it for what it isn't trying to do, but it's definitely not trying to do what I like in Kamen Rider shows.

Kuuga is a very grounded series without a lot of the zaniness even the next season will partially bring. A lot of its darker aspects have not much to balance it out really and the only thing that sticks out is when things get worse.

As violent and dark as Agito, for example, can get, it has a lot more to balance out the bad things, moments, not so much episodes, but there is just a stronger optimistic tone and message buried beneath it that makes it easier to stomach for me. Aka, it feels the show wants to tell a hopeful message told through the darkness, one Kuuga just didn't nail for me as much with its more grounded story and tone.

Amazons is the only modern Rider series I haven't watched all the way through. I got about halfway into season two and decided I just couldn't tolerate it any more. Everything about it felt so awkward and staged that I just couldn't take it anymore.

Yeah, I think it's interesting that if you chart out the Kamen Rider series from (what little I've seen of) Showa, to Heisei Phase 1, to Heisei Phase 2, it's a pretty clear decline in violence and horror. I was a little shocked that the defeated Grongi in Kuuga blow up with body parts flying off. I do not expect that from kids entertainment!

Yeah, the sci-fi horror vibe to Kuuga keeps things from feeling too optimistic, which makes Godai's earnestness and enthusiasm seem both refreshing, and completely out of place. Ichijou and Sakurako are in this race against monsters to save lives and prevent god knows what, and Godai's here to help! He's going to help, you guys! :thumb: It's like you can see the spirit of what later series would do, but in this one it's still stuck in the cocoon of Showa grittiness and violence.

Okay, so, I wouldn't say Amazons gets good later into season 2, but it gets captivatingly weird. There's some choices they make that are so mind-bendingly bizarre that, while I don't love it, I grudgingly respect it. Maybe try a few more if you're feeling masochistic?

Never watch the movie, though. Just, no. I watched it last Christmas (I was under the impression that red and green Riders made it a Christmas movie) and, while I won't know for sure until this December, me watching it may have killed Santa Claus.

Kuuga hits a tone for me because he starts out so happy and optimistic and eventually is just beaten down and sort of traumatized by it all.

Being a Rider is a heavy burden and it turns a happy guy into a living weapon of extreme destruction.

There's a sadness to that particular Riders story that I dont see in many Riders.

The original 1971 Rider was like that in a way too. It was a curse to him and not a gift, to be a Rider.

Oh no!

Oh, the Mika episodes. Yeah, I don't know if it's the writing, the acting, or both, but this part of the story just didn't resonate with me. There's a lot of unique things I like from Kuuga (the atmosphere, the eventual theme, the teamwork with non-Rider human characters, piecing out just what the Grongi are up to), but some of the sub-plots and supporting characters just flat out didn't work.

Anyway, while I personally prefer my Rider shows to be mostly serious and heavy, it doesn't necessarily have to be so dark, violent, and brooding all the time. That's why my current Top 3 are Ryuki, Gaim, and W, which I feel have a healthy mix of tension, humour, tragedy, and fun factor.

I think, for these two episodes, it's the writing. The actors are trying, but there's just nothing on the page (the plot or the dialogue) to help them sell what's happening. There's no, like, specificity to what's going on. Her dad is killed by the monsters that are currently terrorizing the city, but her story is treated as some generic "a child has lost their parent" story. The Killer Bee doesn't even seem to be after her, it's mostly tracking Godai. And, Godai cares, he wants to help, but it mostly seems like he does it because everyone else is too busy. I don't get the feeling he needs to be the one to help her. He doesn't even mention her dad's work to her, or try to loop in his role as Kuuga. The whole plot of this sad girl is so divorced from everything else in the two-parter. Her story is so secondary to the events of the rest of the story, but it's weirdly given equal screen time.

Wait till you see Kamen Rider BLACK and Shin Kamen Rider: Prologue. Plenty of Kleenex boxes will be required.

That said, a very common element in Kamen Rider shows is that it is mostly a story of a person who uses the forces of evil to fight said evil despite the struggle. Not all shows are like that, but most of them are and I think it is something I don't mind seeing be regurgitated over and over again.

I wasn't trying to spoil anything (I hope I didn't), just addressing the overall tone of the show to me mirrors the Original Rider in some ways and that's part of the appeal.

Also Rising Ultimate Kuuga is probably one of the most powerful out of all the Riders, and he looks super cool.

I like to do things in order. I suspect I may be high functioning autistic and that kind of always doing things in order thing is typical. It really never occurred to me to do otherwise. Would have started with the original Kamen Rider if there were subs for everything, but Kuuga was where the unbroken line of subs started, so there I started.

@catwhowalks

I have every Rider series subbed. PM me if you need help finding them or something.

Cheers.

https://i.imgur.com/ZVnCoYB.png


(yes there was much hunting involved to get the complete collection. hahaha)

Yeah, I just did Build and that was a big part of that one, too. Seems like a pretty common theme for Kamen Rider to explore.

This is probably a much bigger thing than I can do justice to right this minute, but one of the things I found interesting watching Kamen Rider as an American superhero fan is that the one of the core principles is "with great responsibility comes great power", inverting the standard American superhero paradigm. American heroes receive power, then have to prove their worthiness. Riders are generally (that I've seen) men who demonstrate their selflessness, their heroism, and then receive power because of it. It's a fun difference, as an American viewer.

(A lot of it has to do with another difference between Japanese and American superheroes, the way American exceptionalism is discarded in favor of deference to the group, but that's, yeah, a much bigger topic!)

That's an interesting way to approach the franchise! I can't imagine starting the whole thing with the first show.

Yeah, I can see how Kuuga would hit that Showa sweet spot for a lot of fans.

MASKED RIDER KUUGA EPISODES 9 - 10

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/kuuga/kuuga09.png

So, there are three main parts to Kuuga episodes so far: there's the investigative part, the Kuuga part, and the emotional part. I don't think I've seen a Kuuga story yet that nails all three, but they're getting there.

As always, the investigative part is the strongest element. Ichijou and the task force are tracking down the Grongi hideout, after nearly 300 people have died. THREE. HUNDRED. PEOPLE. HAVE. DIED. And this is a kids' show, right? And, I mean, this episode is pretty gruesome. A couple schoolgirls just get straight-up exploded in the first main monster attack, and an escaping Grongi kills Mikado the Crime-Fighting Dog. They killed the dog, you guys. That is, no. No, you don't do that. In no culture is that appropriate, even for non-human lifeforms that haven't existed in millenia. No. Too monstrous.

The Kuuga part takes more of a spotlight this story, with a couple cool fights, a whole lot of charming Godai, and a new form. (Titan Form, thanks to the wiki. Man, I like the modern-day shows where the driver is constantly shouting out form changes, so I don't have to think of these things as Purple Kuuga or whatever.) I, you know, I don't think I've talked much about the Kuuga suits. I really like them! There's a cleanliness to the design, with a dominant single color to each suit, mixed with some regal gold edging. It looks powerful, ancient, and not altogether human. Modern suits can get incredibly busy, so it's nice to see what this franchise was like before that maximal aesthetic.

But, yeah, the Kuuga part was really solid, the investigative part was solid, it's the emotional part for me that kind-of fell apart in the end.

The thing that made the other two parts work was attention to detail, sometimes to the detriment of pacing. Every step of the investigation is laid out, from the very dry police meeting, to the scenes with Police Science Doctor having to have a reason to be at the waterfront to get the mystery ash, to the raid on the hideout thanks to Mikado the Crime-Fighting Dog. The Kuuga story has the same step-by-step process, where Godai has to go see Sakurako to find out about Kuuga's sword, to losing to Spitting Grongi, to training with Ichijou, to beating Spitting Grongi. It's all very clearly delineated.

Then there's the emotional part, that spends so long telling us about Minori's fears that her brother is changing into someone she doesn't recognize, someone who's living too dangerously for her to handle, and then, like, blinks at the end. Minori confesses her fears to Godai, Godai says he's doing what he has to do (?) just like she does with her teaching (??) and she is beaming. She's so excited for him to walk in front of an explosive-spitting murder-fish-clown! The end of the story is leaning so goddamn hard on the idea of Minori's confidence in her brother and her lack of fear for his safety, and I do not get it. She's got real, legitimate concerns (his example is making kids fight each other!) and he's like, Responsibility, and she's like, :thumb:. Like the previous story, they spend so much time building to a resolution and then it just stops. Easily a third of the story is wasted thanks to them just ducking any emotional consequences to the characters' decisions, and, worse, it makes Minori look like an idiot. She spent two episodes slowly falling apart thanks to Godai's actions, and then she's just, Naw, We Good. I really, really don't get it.

Of the three parts to Kuuga stories, Investigation/Kuuga/Emotion, I'm a little shocked that the last two stories whiffed the hardest on the emotional part. That's the one you don't need suits and effects work for! That's the basis of storytelling for thousands of years! That is the easy one!

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/kuuga/kuuga10.png

With the exception of Growing, Mighty and one other, I still just think of Kuuga's alternate forms as 'blue Kuuga' or 'the gun one'. That said, I do love the look of basically all of them.

Also the body count is honestly ridiculous the more you think about it. On an individual story arc basis, it does a good job of driving in the fact that the Grongi is a serious threat to the people. But when you put it all together, and you think about how many people in this one area of Japan die to monsters on a regular basis, it's pretty absurd. That said, it's a logical hiccup I'm willing to overlook to appreciate the individual episodes.

I was just a little shocked in this story, where the police are like, "298 people have died." I mean, I'm pretty sure we're supposed to think Ichijou and Sakurako and Godai are making a difference, right? That Kuuga is saving lives by defeating enemies? But, shit, Spitting Grongi murders a half-dozen people before Kuuga explodes him so, uh, is this what heroism was in the early-2000s Japan? Letting less than ten people get killed before stopping a monster?

It reminds me of the (terrible) film "Man of Steel", where a triumphant Superman lowers Lois Lane to the ground after defeating Zod and one of the characters says, reverently, "He saved us." She says this as they are standing in the blighted hellscape that is now Metropolis. I mean, yes, technically you were saved. Not what I'd call a win, though!

Oh, man, I forgot about that dog scene. Animal deaths are one of those things that just super gets to me even in fiction so I actually had to pause it for a bit. Mikado :(

Come to think of it I do remember struggling with these early episodes a bit more than Kuuga as a whole, and I've noticed it's been slow going for you as well. Though hype for Titan Form did keep me going lol

General rule of thumb for older tokusatsu shows: if you see a dog, it is going to get killed by a monster.

Yeah, I really don't love when shows hurt animals for cheap emotionally stakes. Like, the Grongi already killed 300 people. I was not on the fence as to how I should feel about them. I'm a people! I'd rather not be shot with a metal quill from a mile up or exploded by a goo-spitting murder-fish-clown! I did not need a hero dog's death to make up my mind about the Grongi!

Kuuga, yeah, it's a bit slower going for me than Build or even Ghost. There's a more frantic pace to Heisei Phase 2 shows, the kind of pace that immediately makes you queue up another episode. Here, especially since the Grongi plan is kind-of vague, it's more these two-episode stories that don't seem to feed into each other, that don't have a lot of subplots (emotional or investigative) to set up cliffhangers or anything. I'm still enjoying it, but it's more "finding things to like in it" than "I can't wait to watch the next one".

Also, my work schedule just massively expanded, in a good way. Big news for Challengers Comics in the next week, but the kind of big news that means my non-store hours are taken up by a lot of new work. My Kuuga time, at least through Thanksgiving, is going to be more erratic. Still, I want to keep at it! I'll probably have time for 4-6 episodes today.

Titan Form, by the way, is slick. One aspect of Kamen Rider that feels as vital in Kuuga as it does today is how the show treats form changes as a Big Deal. Titan's entrance feels epic, for sure.

All I know is, if this were modern-day Kamen Rider, that screaming cop who just lost his dog partner would've become a secondary rider dedicated to helping Kuuga defeat the Grongi. Masked Rider K-9! HENSHIN!

Form changes were some Kuuga was really, really good with. They all have memorable entrances, and very clearly defined roles that keep them relevant throughout the series. Even Growing Form manages to get some work after the first two episodes. That's going the extra mile!

MASKED RIDER KUUGA EPISODES 11 - 12

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/kuuga/kuuga11.png

You know what? I think these two episodes really worked. A little goofy, sure, and the emotional part takes a long, long time to connect, but I don't really think this story did anything wrong.

Right up front, the goofy part: this old teacher of Godai's is having a full-blown existential crisis. The big, emotional finale to his story, where he's confessing his fear that he can't be a teacher any more, and that his whole career has been a failure if Godai doesn't show up... with the abandoned school setting , the layers of snow, it would not have shocked me if Kanzaki had come there to die. It is so bleak. And, also, crazy. This dude is betting his career and fundamental belief in himself on whether or not Godai shows up. That's it. Success or failure of a life will be decided by whether or not Godai keeps a thirteen year-old appointment that Kanzaki only remembered by total coincidence. I'm not sure The Royal Tenenbaums had a more depressing view of the capriciousness of giving up on life.

To make matters even weirder, Godai a) doesn't have any idea that his idol, the man he learned how to be a man from, is basically going to consider his life wasted if Godai doesn't show up, leaving Godai blissfully unaware of the stakes of one-half of this story; and b) Godai sends Sakurako to meet Kanzaki in the beginning of the story, and he's relieved because he thinks he's done enough. He even tells Ichijou that it's fine if he doesn't show up at this point, since he sent Sakurako instead. He doesn't seem conflicted about possibly missing Kanzaki, or grief-stricken about the consequences. He's just going to fight this monster, everything else will be fine. I mean, it was, Sakurako more or less stopped that dude from killing himself, but still. Each story had stakes, which made from an above-average two-parter, but it's insane that neither side were aware of each other's struggle.

It all comes together in the end, though, as a story about why Godai's the way he is, and about the inspiration he and Kuuga serve as. The Grongi fight is a great front-to-back monster story, with Ichijou doing the exposition and Godai doing the fighting. It definitely put Godai in the driver's seat more, which is where I'd like to see this series as we move into the teens. It wasn't an astounding bit of narrative or anything, but threading together Godai's quest for self-improvement via Rider Kick and Kanzaki's epiphany that he hadn't wasted his life since Godai is who he is, that made this whole story feel worthwhile.

This was a gratifyingly strong story, after a couple that just couldn't put it all together. I'm feeling a bit more optimistic about Kuuga now!

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/kuuga/kuuga12.png

I think this might have been where Kuuga started to click for me, as well -- I'm actually not sure what to say here because I feel like I'd just be parroting you! But these episodes, to me, are just really emblematic of what Kuuga's about and what it's saying. This is where the thumbs up became iconic for me -- this might sound a bit corny, but I've actually found myself doing thumbs ups a lot more in real life; it just... it really does seal this vibe of good intent and well-meaning, you know?

But it's not just that Kuuga is nice and about being a good person, there's a good deal of complexity and deeper content in here as well. Like, that line Kenzaki has? It'll of course be a bit different depending on what subs you're using, but:-

"To tell the truth... I know longer understand education. The children themselves say they have no hope for the future... In that case, what should I be teaching them?

Like... damn. Just damn. This was written 19 years ago! And I'm still feeling that! It's just. Such a goddamn line.


I love this series. I really do.