I assume Zatyme is booing Fish for pulling a dad joke via wordplay of hikikomori into hikikoumori. Hikikomori is a term for recluse shut-ins who refuse to leave their dwellings and koumori(pronounced koh-wu-mo-ri) is Japanese for the animal bat. Fish according to Zatyme has done the sacrilegious act of giving us a pun thus the booing. Most likely. Correct me if I'm wrong. :lolol

Otoya is a really complicated character. He is, as you'll see in upcoming days, probably the single most fun character on the show. He can be really campy and goofy in ways that are really enjoyable. Everything about his attitude towards Yuri, though, is just... it's really, really bad. He's a creep at best and a stalker at worst. This wasn't great in 1986, it wasn't great in 2008, and it's really bad to look back on in 2021. It's really difficult to reconcile the parts of the character that are fun and admirable with the parts of him that are just a complete sleazebag.

That said, I did enjoy Wataru more this time. It feels a little abrupt for him to be more actively engaging with people, cafe scene aside, but it's much more enjoyable than the mask, gloves, and notepad. Definitely feel the disconnect between Wataru and Kiva, though. It reminds me a lot of Agito and the similar disconnect between Shouichi and Agito. I have some thoughts on why it's happening here, but it probably involves spoilers so I'll save it for later.

One thing I do want to comment on now, though, is my love for the Fangires. The Fangires are one of my favorite monster groups from this era. I love the stained glass motif for the monster suits and the accompanying partial transformation face paint. The glass effect on their victims is also a really cool twist on Faiz's dust corpses.

I do not even slightly get that.

It's a response to the pun he ended his post with

and no Kiva Syndrome is something incredibly negative and super noticeable especially considering how Den-O handled this.

But really, it suits Wataru/Kiva. He a bat AND a hikikomori. Thus the term Hikikoumori. I know it sounds like a bad pokemon name but come on, you gotta appreciate the craft Fish put into it. :lolol

puns are one step above poop and fart jokes in my opinion so I would rather not encourage that form of comedy especially when it also requires being a weeb to understand the joke. As if you need to explain a joke it isn't funny


And yes I am playing up my reaction to the pun

Got it!

Yeah, he's both indefensible (nearly everything he does in this episode is, at minimum, a lengthy Harassment In The Workplace seminar in the offing) and also so ridiculous that it's hard to feel too upset about it, personally. I wouldn't for a second push back against anyone who thought he was too problematic to deal with, though. He's the sort of Pepe Le Pew character that is giving kids an absolutely terrible baseline for what's acceptable in relationships. It's corny and inappropriate if you're an adult, reckless and disappointing when it's pitched to children.

For me, though... yeah, I don't know if it's going to hit me super hard. A lot of his physicality in this one is more about lifting her weaponry, and she slaps him hard when he tries to get close to her earlier. (Not a great moment for Inoue!) The rest of it is him being a lecherous creep, but Yuri treats that as despicable, and he's nearly murdered by a decorative vampire monster that he attempted to seduce. Problematic elements, but there is some attempt by the show to have consequences? A little?

I feel like I can see a bit how Wataru/Kiva could work, and how it ties in with Wataru losing the mask and stuff for this episode. (I guess Megumi completely cured his psychosomatic allergies?) Wataru is someone who has trouble interfacing with world. He can't look people in the eye, he can't talk to them... it's tough for him to be present with people. But Kiva is a mask, Kiva is armor, Kiva doesn't have to talk to anyone. Using Kamen Rider Kiva to step outside of how he views himself, the chains he's placed on his identity... I can see that being why there's a different physicality?

That stained glass shit is great. I love that motif for a monster. Stained glass windows are beautiful, but they're also something you only see in places of power. They're regal and imposing and cold. Making a monster that's beautiful and, like, implacable and distant? Good choice!

So this show as we all know involves 1980s Japan. Here is a mixtape worth of Japanese commercials at the time for those curious.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tg7szC3CIUU

Fish Sandwich ja nai to?

Boy do you have the wrong franchise then! Just for starters, this is a great chance to mention that the name Kiva is derived from the Japanese word kiba, which means "fang", but spelled with a V specifically because it's also short for King of Vampire. I have to say, it's low-key one of my favorite Rider titles? I don't know, there's just something about it; it's just short and sweet and rolls off the tongue.

(And while I'm on the subject of the title – that logo! It's like a bat and a moon and also Kiva's face, complete with fangs, all at once! I love it so much!)

I can only dream of being that good one day. :p

Interesting name for the horse orphenoch! Or maybe horses always did have fangs, and they're waiting for the right chance to strike...

"Fangire" is also laudably dumb, as far as monster names go. It'd be like doing a lycanthrope season and having the monsters be called Clawolves. It's a portmanteau that feels like the monsters really wanted some branding they could control, a trademarkable calling card. It's real business-minded, which I guess makes sense if you're a group of monsters that've existed since/during the go-go 1980s.

But, hell, if you run the risk of being devoured by a Dinosaur Cathedral for the benefit (or detriment?) of Zanki, you are allowed to be a little gaudy in your presentation. I mean, you're already a decorative vampire monster! Just go all the way!

we shuld al b carful as 2 not get bit by a horse n die

:D Please guys don't spoil it for him.

Correction. The Kiba in Yuji Kiba is 木場 which translates to lumberyard and not 牙 which is the character for fang.

Well, I’m back with another of these.

Octopus Fangire

True name: The Lady Portrait Torn in a Full Moon (満月に引き裂かれた貴婦人の肖像 Mangetsu ni Hikisakareta Kifujin no Shōzō)

Human identity: Hitomi Miyazawa

Class: Aqua

Rank: Pawn

Actors: Masako Umemiya (Midori from Hibiki), Kanae Oki (Love from Fresh Pretty Cure) (Fangire form)

One thing I like about this episode is that we go from the 86 segments where we see Hitomi being turned down for repairs by Otoya, before we cut to 08 and see Wataru fixing it for her with no issues (Otoya really needed to invest in a banned customers list).

Yuri and Megumi being related. Well, it’s kind of obvious given that they look vaguely similar, they have the same basic role in the plot and the actresses are credited as singing a duet on one of the albums (it’s called Feel the Same if you’re curious, since I don’t think it props up in the show much. Tv-Nihon subbed the music video).

Just a heads up, tomorrow’s episode’s Fangire’s information has been pre-emptively redacted, due to a mixture of spoilers and me needing to focus on a wrap up for my Hurricaneger thread (the final episode of which is also tomorrow).

Oh shit, it was! I thought she looked familiar, but I never put it together. Thanks!

I guess I didn't find it that obvious? Them looking vaguely similar is a claim I could make about 90% of the women in Kamen Rider (long black hair, slim build, late teens to early 20s, median height), them having the same role is part of the rhyming structure of the two eras, and I'm only two episodes in so I've got no idea what is on later soundtracks. I assumed, if anything, Yuri was Wataru's mom (and may yet be, since this is Kamen Rider and they love stories about secret siblings), so the Octopus Fangire casually mentioning it was a pretty big shock.

Uhh, not every goofiness and humor are lightheared or sweetness. Like you said sometimes a joke is unhelpful, or inconsiderate, and that can be what people find as entertaining. Especially for this kind of writer, to you at least, comedic sociopathy for laughs, a character making others suffer as something you'd find comedic trait. Giving nasty actions free pass due to it being seen as funny and not considering the feelings of the victim or treat them as don't matter for the entertainment value in those behaviours. Among kids, this can be used to perpetuate something like, bullying because they find the behavior funny, and justify the act so that the bullying will continue for them for them to watch for laughs!

Well yeah, I had thoughts of this being potentially Inoue bias too that if Wataru comes from Inoue, then praises for him, but if he comes from someone else, you can instead pick on his weaknesses/flaws, as a good number of people do. BTW, while Wataru is asocial, Wataru is also the usual sweet toku hero for main Rider, his flaws aren't something toxic or moral, its ordinary flaws like shyness, pushover/doormat, lacking common sense, etc. those aren't something that hurts others. While Takumi has dark and negative traits as flaws, where he's aggressive, mean spirited, apathetic, irrational (Kusaka's first appearence), and can be inconsiderate/uncaring, and those are hurtful to others and can push him into grey moral territory making him an anti-hero like most secondary Riders. And the reception between Wataru and Takumi also brings back to my discussion in Blade about double standard regarding character flaws for toxic and ordinary ones.

Of course mostly monsters are superior beings to humans, but I'd wonder how the Fangire is left unchecked between 1986 and 2008 and especially, how much the damage she has caused for being left free in 20+ years....

The part of living up to your father as a successor, and the struggles of not believing in yourself and thinking you aren't worthy successor. I've seen this part of story in someone, and there are different path they can take for development and growth.

Wow, didn't expect this reaction to Otoya. Yeah, he's a shameless flirt. I thought you'd be all about gushing to him, and his type is fully expected from a writer like Inoue (there's Daisuke too in Kabuto, who goes full-on sexist in this). The thing is, Otoya's for some audience, is the sole redeeming factor for Kiva, and I think he's the closest to Kiva's Kuroto in terms of popularity and recognization (though yeah there are people who find him overbearing due to this). And if you think this part of comedic skeeziness is bad... well, this is a glimpse of Inoue without restraint, seen on the side medias like novels etc. There are more of these kind of stuff there written by Inoue, the TV team tried to keep Inoue on leash to prevent him pulling out this stuff. And for protecting people as an attribute... well, I think that's also related to Otoya's infatuation with women, as beautiful and good-looking humans can also be seen as the display of art among humans, or a "masterpiece for the Human Creator".

Yes, Yuri is Megumi's mom. Megumi Aso and Yuri Aso. And regarding Shizuka claming to be a mom to Wataru, this reminds me of a Faiz part that can be disturbing (or memeable), where Kusaka claims Mari can be his mother. For the females refered as tough here, I'd want to prevent the toxic notion that women needs to be ‘out there’, ‘loud’, ‘expressive’, ‘aggressive’, etc. to be powerful, as the 2 women here sort of fit those. And for socially-awkward people finding themselves in tough situations, people like Wataru commonly got ostracized and bullied in real life, I hope anyone here won't push the notion of the "so-called bullies are only trying to bond with them" (and giving them free pass by that) based on this interaction.

Halfway through Episode 3, and I figured out where else I recognized Otoya from:

https://media.giphy.com/media/WM9MFIhzzgu40/giphy.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/qeikFgYSIF09q/giphy.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/h6cFYO8miNhok/giphy.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/6RDbupwfivUOY/giphy.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/NDIiWK...7aqM/giphy.gif

I did say that he’d be like one of the Airimirers (I forget which one, but it’s the one who had the same “Leisure Suit Larry” schtick) in the Den-O thread (though I didn’t mention any names).

You are definitely going to love the next episode post.

KAMEN RIDER KIVA EPISODE 03 - "HEROIC: THE PERFECT HUNTER”

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/kiva/kiva03a.png

This is an episode full of action (Nago!) and drama (that moment when you figure out your parents are human), but, like, Otoya.

He's so exquisitely awful that I honestly can't hate him. I should, probably. Okay, definitely. He's grotesque, with his debauchery and dismissiveness. He's horrible for virtually every single second of this episode. There's not a single redeeming thing he does in this part of the story.

But, like, I was dying. He is so ridiculous that I can't begrudge him his absence of morality. Everything he gets up to in this episode is so over-the-top, so cartoonish, that it's hard to find fault. Getting mad at Otoya for fleecing rubes or stealing hearts is like getting mad at the weather. It is doing the thing it was created to do, and any lives that get wrecked in the process... well, we live in an imperfect world. Much like Jean-Ralphio's predictably deplorable life choices on "Parks and Recreation", Otoya wins me over by being so jaw-droppingly, enthusiastically terrible, that I end up applauding him for it. He is a bad person, and I am a bad person for enjoying it this much.

Of course, that's just me, and I ain't his kid. Getting Wataru involved in a story where he has to accept the reality of his dad's past (the scene where Wataru, beaming, describes his dad as some pillar among men, was so adorably wrong that it made me root for that kid) is a nicely relatable story. No matter how great your upbringing was, there's a point in growing up where you have to see your parents as real people with real flaws, and that's tough. It's disillusioning, having to accept that someone can be both a good parent and a not-great person. In this one, Wataru isn't just confronted with the idea of his dad maybe tipping poorly at a restaurant, or cheating at a board game. Wataru is presented with massive binders of his dad's malfeasance, and gets to hear first-hand accounts of the lives his dad ruined. It is more than disillusioning; it's completely demoralizing.

I've said before that Kiva has echoes of Ghost for me, with Wataru trying to follow in his father's footsteps and feeling inadequate to the task. The way Wataru completely falls apart here brought that similarity back to my mind. Takeru, for better or worse, could completely lose his cool in the early-going of Ghost, becoming bratty and selfish in the face of adversity. It was always a learning experience, something he'd have to fix in himself in order to meet the challenge, but we'd end up with a few scenes of him being pretty worthless to the assignment. Wataru gets at that here, where he can't even finish a fight against the Moth Fangire because he's so haunted by his father's actions.

(Also, just going to assume that the Moth Fangire is the lawyer who brought all of this information to Wataru.)

It's deserved, for sure. Wataru's flaw is that he ties too much of himself up in his father's memory; he's chained to that past. So finding out that his father has binders full of destroyed lives to answer for, it's going to wreck him. But, like, I don't know how much of it I believe? We know that Otoya is awful, sure, but this awful? It's probably/absolutely irredeemable, to the point where he's an ill-fit for a tokusatsu show. There's enough cover in these stories about him to not judge him too harshly, maybe (most of what we hear are that people threw their lives away on stupid things he said; he didn't rob anybody or anything), and that's if we even believe all of what the lawyer is saying. Like, the idea that all of these people who lost everything because of Otoya would forgive him two decades later if he could be proved to have done one selfless act... that is one of the least believable things on a show that includes a Dinosaur Cathedral. It's a completely ludicrous story, which both works in its favor (hard to not find Otoya hilarious) and renders it a little toothless (I don't buy what the lawyer is selling). It's a tricky story, and one I'm curious how it'll resolve.

Most of the rest of this one is given over to Megumi's lack of satisfaction with her job, and that was a blast to watch. Her getting surly at Mal d'Amour (thank you, subtitles, because I could not figure out why Maid'Amour didn't have a single maid) (also, naming the cafe in the gothic tokusatsu show "Heartbreak”... INOUE FOREVER!) at Wataru and Shizuka was nicely unnecessary, her just taking her frustration out on these two awkward children.

I really like how adversarial Megumi and Shizuka are? It's one of my favorite beats, Megumi feeling pleased with herself for dunking on a child and then immediately feeling like a jerk for dunking on a child. Any time so far that this show has put Megumi in the same room as Wataru and/or Shizuka, it's magic to me. I love that energy! I like how perfect that trinity of Wataru/Megumi/Shizuka is so far. Most of the scene is to set up Otoya's history with W.A.K.E.U.P.*, the organization that employs Yuri and is trying to stop the Fangires (did not check the wiki), but there's still enough cuteness and warmth to make the exposition and shifty-eyed This Is A Mystery stuff go down smooth.

Speaking of smooth! Nago! As comically heroic as Otoya is comically awful, and I love it just as much. He's a one-man wrecking crew who believes in redemption and donates his half-million dollar bounty to underprivileged youths! I get why Wataru calls him Dad! I want him to be my dad, too! Seeing him take trophies and deliver uplifting threats... I love it. I love this dude being exactly the type of square-jawed hero Inoue would never write in a million years, so I can't wait to see what the hell is actually going on with him. He's either going to be horribly murdered, revealed as a monster, or slowly dissolved into a complete joke of a person. I am good with any of those!

This one worked pretty well for me. The Moth Fangire is sort of nowhere in the story (just randomly appears and leaves), so that part is maybe not great, but all of the Otoya awfulness, the Wataru despair, the Megumi antagonism, and the Nago virtuousness... yes. Oh god, yes.

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/kiva/kiva03b.png

*Weapons/Actions/Knowledge Enforcing Unilateral Protection
Or
*We Are Kiva's Expendable, Underdeveloped Persons

Today's track is what plays as Nago is lecturing a criminal about the Infinite Potential™ of humanity for redemption, just in case you think Die is exaggerating how much the show is exaggerating his heroism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyXu_F-0rgE

Nago is a character that definitely makes an immediate impression, to say the least. I remember Wataru's instant admiration for him being a plot thread that actively excited me to a level I don't think the rest of the show was that early on. That being said, I think Die and I are in the same boat for Otoya that we were for Kusaka? Otoya is indeed comically awful, and I love at least that much about the guy.

Nago and Otoya... they're very fun to watch, because they embody Inoue's whole No Half-Measures approach to character design. It's about pushing traits so far past a redline that Otoya stops being awful and starts being Awful, or Nago stops being heroic and starts being Heroic. It's about moving these characters into the realm of metaphor, and I really dig that commitment to the heightened reality of tokusatsu.

Yeah, you can spend so much time thinking of cool ideas but that image never truly materializes in to something original until you bring it in to the world. When you bring it in to the world, it gains new dimensions, so suddenly you need to envision it from those other angles that didn't previously exist and you need to do it in a way that compliments the whole, which means tweaking several elements until it eventually becomes very different from the original 2D image. You can only determine those things that need to be changed when you try and make it real. That's what makes it unique but also difficult to complete. You need to be persistent and flexible and accept the uncertainty of your creation.

That's interesting. Recreating the art of their fathers is part of it, but it's also about making that art unique to them, using their own life experiences and adding their soul to it. That's why Wataru struggles to find the materials to recreate Bloody Rose, since it's Otoya's ultimate masterpiece. Wataru's only memory of his father is his legacy and has to rely on Shizuka as a parental substitute. Shizuka is pretty good at encouraging him to interact with the world as well as protecting him from those who would manipulate him, since he's shy and socially inept which makes him vulnerable to deception.

Doesn't Kabuto have enough narcissists already?

Castle Doran is actually a dragon, not a dinosaur.

This is one of those things about Kiva that always bugged me and it's an unfortunate side effect of the show's split timeline premise. We almost always see the 1986 and 2008 characters confronting the same Fangires at the same time. It's a neat tie between the events, but it also means that a) we know that Team '86 is going to fail to defeat the monster. Again. And b) the monster was just left free to roam and do whatever it pleased for 22 years.

Now, I do have a theory about why the Fangires may have kept relatively quiet in between the two periods, but it involves stuff that happens much later in the series so I'm going to shelve it for now and forget to come back to it near the end of the show.

Literally laughed out loud when I saw this. He is. He totally is. I love this.

Two major points I need to make about episode 3:

1. Yuri's 80s hair and fashion game is fucking ON. POINT. As a child of the 80s, this brings me so much joy. It's also why I keep forgetting that Yu Takahashi (Yuri) and Kouhei Takeda (Japanese Jean Ralphio) aren't 20+ years older than the rest of the cast (in fact, Takahashi had just turned 17 when the show started airing, which makes her younger than everyone but Shizuka and the dog).

2. The bit where Wataru, Shizuka, and the crossing guard are struggling to stand up in the wind and two little kids just casually stroll past them was comedic gold.

So yeah, I think I'm pretty much in total agreement about the Otoya parts of this episode. They are absolutely delightful in how just completely awful Otoya is. I'd remembered some of this, but really forgot the extent to which he was just completely the worst. The show is generally aware of it, too, which I think helps justify finding it more amusing than obnoxious. If Otoya was being presented as anything like a role model or someone whose behavior was at least partially acceptable I think this would all play a lot worse. The show is totally in on the premise that he sucks, though, and I can work with this.

This episode also solved a mystery that's been bugging me for a long time now. Inoue mostly disappeared from Kamen Rider during the 2010s, but one of the few things he wrote was the OOO section of Movie War Core. You know, the part that only barely resembled the show and felt like it was written off of the series bible with no idea of what the show actually looked like. There's a bit in there where Eiji makes some money and is immediately swindled out of it by jerks taking advantage of his naive kindness, at least until Hina steps in. I knew that Inoue had done that scene before, but couldn't remember where. It was this episode with Wataru and the newspaper salesman. Nice to have that partial memory fully filled in.

Finally, I want to point out that I had forgotten how delightful Megumi was. She's a character that I kind of ignored the first time through the series, but man are her interactions with other characters delightful.

Nago is definitely a difficult character to forget any time soon. Like, he's one of the many many characters in this season I dislike; but his whole button thing is... insane. Of all things I don't like about the guy, the premise of "modern-day bounty hunter that collects buttons" is a really funny one that I like.

Anyway, uh. Otoya! This guy is the main reason I hate this season. Without him, Kiva... well, it wouldn't work, because he's so deeply baked into the themes and story of the show. But looking beyond him there's not too much in this show I'd say I hate; it's not one that ever works for me and not one I think is very good at storytelling (there'll be some later episodes where I think it's very unclear when the switch between time periods happens, and not in a way that's good artistically), but it's not... like... tuning in every episode to see Otoya being lecherous and creepy and misogynistic and demeaning in a way that would have Urataros and Drake being "hey, mate, bit too much". I can see why people would like him, but to me he crosses the line by a mile into being the most unpleasant character in the world to watch

Yeah, I think the show is maybe getting at some similarities between the Fangires and Wataru, where the act of creating is only something they're mimicking, so it can't be a creation. The hollowness that they can't ever fill, since the thing they'd be filling it with would make it not the thing they're trying to create. Like, the difference between inspiration and idolization... yeah, could be something this show ends up discussing.

Ha ha, whoops! Fixed!

This part is fantastic. It's totally unnecessary, which is why it's so great. All Wataru and Shizuka are doing are having some guy bookend his flashback. They could be anywhere, doing anything. That this guy's life has been obliterated to the point where he's a crossing guard is more than enough of a joke. But then the director's like, But What If There's A Wind Storm, so we get this insane visual of actors delivering basic dialogue and not acknowledging the hurricane they're standing in front of... and then these two tiny children walk right through it like it's not even there. It's a purely visual gag that is totally additional to the plot, and it's really great to watch.

For sure. He's ruining lives in multiple timelines; I don't think the show is asking you view him as a good person. Like, the whole point of this story (so far) is that Wataru has found out that Otoya is The Worst. It's about the weight of this kid's familial obligation, trying to atone for binders of human destruction. It's hilarious that Otoya is terrible, but the show is incredibly clear that Otoya is terrible.

She's honestly my favorite character so far. Her disappointment when Nago shows up is such a unique beat, the feeling that she would rather not have this do-gooder swiping her case. That, and her response to Shizuka's whole Wataru Is Trying To Be Better, where she's like Okay How. She's, like, goal-oriented in a way that's refreshing. These franchises are usually more inclined towards invisible personal growth (this show is real Ghost-y to me), so having Megumi be more concerned with achieving results is kind of a new take? I like it, and I like her.

Honestly? Fair. There's a physicality to Otoya I find difficult to forgive, when he starts getting grabby with strangers and folks that are not consenting to his schtick. That's a part that takes me a bit out of his scenes.

But, yeah, he's a massive part of the show, and if you find him unfunny and tasteless (if not completely abhorrent), that's going to make the whole thing fatally flawed.

If it's any consolation, it's not at all hard to see why people wouldn't like him, either. Like Die just said, that's an entirely fair reaction to have! Otoya is definitely... I mean, he can be a lot, for sure.

Ooh, ooh! You'll never guess the shocking sentence that follows after this one!

Episodes 3/4 are directed by Hidenori Ishida.

Okay, you probably guessed it, but it's always a fun occasion when I get to say some version of that for the first time in a thread. The POV flashbacks here are also a very distinctly Ishida touch. He's always looking for ways to spice up those straightforward scenes.

The key to Otoya is that the show never portrays alot of what he does as a good thing. I like to think of him as the Kusaka of Kiva, personally. When the show itself acknowledges that what a character is saying or doing isn't 100% okay(unlike akira date), then I tend to give it a pass.

I would disagree on that though. Like, very very heavily disagree.

And that's fine; I can see why someone would get the exact opposite impression. Personally though, I don't see any of it as Inoue actively trying to give some sort of free pass to stuff like that.

Oh, absolutely. The one in the casino! Where it's Otoya betting Red as Black wins about 7000 times in a row! And then he pays off a bet by telling the crowd he charges a billion yen for a violin lesson! And there will not be any change given!

So, I'll play Devil's Advocate on this one and maybe point out that Inoue having the other characters treat Otoya's more-or-less criminal activity as somewhere between Wacky Hijinks and There's No Fixing Him... I mean, that's pretty much Inoue giving Otoya a free pass. Letting a Otoya continue to be terrible while pointing out he's terrible... it's not a great move for the writer on a kid's show. This isn't Mad Men, you know? It's Kamen Rider, and there is maybe something to be said for these characters having a moral code that keeps Otoya from interacting with the plot.

(Counterpoint: I like that Yuri brought up how Otoya's massive character flaws to her boss and he was just like As Long As He Doesn't Get Killed I Don't Care What Else He Does. That is a writer who is aware that Otoya is awful, and lets Yuri by the one to protest his continued involvement. She's trying to fix things!)

My only true calling in life is complaining about Inoue, and I feel a bit hesitant about venturing my opinion here, because I don't want to be seen as trampling on anyone's feelings, or being in Inoue's corner, nor do I want to be seen as defending Otoya, who is an obnoxious caricature—and yet, unintentional as it may have been, his behaviour is pretty consistent with the show's 1980s setting. :p

I'm conflicted because I feel that zero consideration was afforded to the idea of how Otoya would appear to anyone not involved in trying to make a weekly TV show out of a toy-line in 2008, and part of why we are having this conversation is because things have changed so very much in the last 10 years or so in the way we are talking about the issues that Otoya is a lightning rod for, but also because... I think I prefer the idea of a main character who is demonstratively awful to the idea of a character who is a blank space, the kind of stock character that producers hope children will imprint on, and draw a connexion between their own fantasies and the power fantasy that the toys embody.

I guess I'm thinking about this too much, but also this is the week where I came dangerously close to being cancelled for suggesting that it was possible to read a villain from Sailor Moon as a tragic character in contrast to her archetype in Greek mythology, rather than as just The Source of All Evil, so this is a very 2021 sort of vibe for me. There seems to be an increased need/demand for purity of motive in fiction from audiences lately, and an increasing level of vitriol in regards to characters who don't meet those standards, and, even worse people who like these characters, and it's a very weird time we're having culturally in the west right now, I feel.

tl;dr Inoue is awful, Otoya is awful, but the work is very much the product of its context. It is impossible not to engage with that to some degree, but adjacent to all this, there is this theme of motherhood that I keep coming back to, and it stays my hand hand each time I consider going to Inoue's house and burning it down.

Why is this reply so long? Guys, I don't even really like this show.

I think it's (and this is a little hard to write because a- Inoue Forever, and b- I genuinely enjoy Otoya's whole thing) Otoya's proximity to the plot that makes his period-appropriate grossness so... unavoidable? Otoya seems to permeate this show, the core of what it's saying and how it's saying it, so making him someone that needs to be either ignored (good luck!) or redeemed (tough hill to sled) is maybe way more trouble than it's worth. You have to forgive a ton to look past him. (That, or, like, be on an Inoue Forever wavelength.) I don't begrudge anyone who'd hope that a writer would make enjoying a show designed to sell toys to Japanese children something that wasn't shackled to representations of masculinity that were tired and objectionable even back in 2008. There is a level of verisimilitude that I am okay with the Decorative Vampire Monster-Detenotation Show maybe omitting.

Or maybe I'm getting other people's objections all wrong! Either way, sincerely, I'm happy for folks to talk about their objections to Kiva. It enriches the experience for me, and I'd never want someone to feel uncomfortable pushing back on parts they find problematic.

I absolutely agree, we should always ask for more, we should always ask for better, especially considering how horrible the world we live in is. I have so many feelings about this, and I struggle to find the words to express this over and over again, and, well, then you sadly end up with me being all emotional in your thread (sorry!).

I just... I'm all about Death of the Author, about knowing as little about the person behind the work as possible, but it's impossible not to see the values and politics of the time in which a work was made reflected in its telling, I guess, and there is a lot of 2008 in Kiva. That's what I'm trying to say.

I don't know, I personally hated 2008. I'll put a pin in this, as I want to come back to talking about Otoya later on.

(every one of my paragraphs in this post began with "I". That's awful.)

You're sharing your experience with art! That's basically the whole point of this thread! "I" statements are perfectly acceptable!

To your point about Death of the Author... that's nearly always my take. I don't care what Inoue meant, I care what he made. In general, that actually lets me get more out of his work than he probably intended. Like, I've called his work on Faiz "accidentally progressive", because I find it hard to believe he was making a show in 2004 that could be read (and read thoroughly) as being analogous to the struggles a marginalized community has inside of a larger culture. It's there, but I'm not sure he knows it's there. You know?

Anyway, hi, yes, Otoya. Definitely going to be a lightning rod for discussion for the next couple months, and I am very much looking forward to folks sharing their thoughts (respectfully!) on Wataru's dad and the specific era/culture he represents. No such thing as a wrong opinion, as long as you can respect opposing views.

I am actually excited to see so much debate! Y'all are my favorite type of fans!

You're far too kind, thank you. I absolutely agree with you on Faiz as well, there must have been something in the water during the time in which Inoue was working on that show. I remember when I read about the idea of disidentification, about the notion of children who felt like outsiders reading their experiences as comparative with some unlikely candidates in pop culture, and I feel there's a lot in Faiz and Kiva that could lend itself to such readings, and may indeed be the root of why I keep going on about themes of maternal relationships here.

I'm looking forward to this too! These are the kind of threads that keep me refreshing the forum every day.

The Peter Venkman of Kamen Rider. Thank you folks y'all far too kind. *mic drop and walks away*

Though you frighten me with your proud declaration of bad person for this stuff, I'll still say; people can like any kind of characters, no matter what their alignments are, because interesting, deep, or enjoyable isn't related to alignments (although I wish for toleration for any kind of characters, not declaring certain character as bad because "it's not my type I like"). What people can't is 'whitewash' them and excuse their morally bad aspects. People can like them and find them interesting while acknowledging the negative traits. And in the inverse talking about the character's flaws and show objections to them ≠ hating the character. DreamSword says that it's not a problem when the show itself acknowledges that what a character is saying or doing isn't 100% okay, well, the media, the show tend to give those characters the comeuppance or at least (if they're competent enough to escape), the well-deserved scorn, it's the fans who tend to defy that.

And for Otoya as parent, well, for Wataru to be born, you have to be faithful to 1 woman, and keep that until you're married, as both father and mother are required to make the child born. That'd be the opposite of what's Otoya doing here, which is taking someone's woman away in a violent way (picking fight with him), and later seeing another woman, ditches that woman (for the relief of his victim) for that another woman immediately. Like I said before I know little about Kiva, but Otoya may've redeemed after that to actually stay faithful to 1 woman and start a family.

And again I want to ask for the contrasting reaction between this and a previous series. Here, you think Wataru facing the reality of his dad's past is relatable and this part has him apologizing to others for Otoya and likely blaming himself for their misfortunes, but before in a series like Blade, you think the idea that something someone's father did without knowledge and prevention gives enormous weight equals to them being unable to function as a person and that you can't relate for "I Must Atone For My Family’s Misdeeds"? That parents aren't extension or reflection of the child and thus is their own people and responsible of their own actions?

[QUOTE=Kamen Rider Die;799693]Most of the rest of this one is given over to Megumi’s lack of satisfaction with her job, and that was a blast to watch. Her getting surly at Mal d’Amour (thank you, subtitles, because I could not figure out why Maid’Amour didn’t have a single maid) (also, naming the cafe in the gothic tokusatsu show “Heartbreak”... INOUE FOREVER!) at Wataru and Shizuka was nicely unnecessary, her just taking her frustration out on these two awkward children.

Here lies another one of Wataru's problems. He's a doormat, he doesn't like to refuse people, and therefore has needlessly subscribing into several newspapers. And as you said Megumi dunks on a child, it's clear here as Wataru didn't cause anymore problems, and she just mocks his poor social skills. And Shizuka defending Wataru as trying hard to change should mean that not every of those bad words can be dismissed as purely banter, especially, especially that people like Wataru is commonly ostracized irl, with all the badmouthings like that, though I feel that Megumi's words to him are more like brutally honest parent.

Well yeah, in this episode, Nago seems completely heroic and charming, although calm and collected. But from what I read, he's not all it seems. I haven't gone through it fully obviously yet of course, but he'd remind me of Yaguruma from Kabuto. At first glance too, Yaguruma seems to be the knight in shining armor type to fight off monsters and save people, while also being a good leader to his men, but he has plethora of dark traits later.

IMO, that'd mean it's not the problem of split timeline premise, but the Fangire handling though. The split timeline premise is of course, in line with phase 1 series being experimental, and thus making those seasons more controversial, but split timeline premise can be done without giving same Fangire for 1986 and 2008 timelines to fight.

I think Otoya is the closest to the Kuroto of Kiva. What do you think for the Kuroto fanbase by that?