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Kamen Rider Die

02-25-2021 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurona (Post 791868)

The thing I remember finding memorable about this episode... is sadly the aesthetics of the fight. I recall finding it kinda funny that Rod Form was given the normal characteristics of a Rider compared to Sword Form's deviations -- he's got the bug eyes, and then his finisher is an actual rider kick.

It's like they were afraid Urataros' character was too far afield for a hero (what with his constant lies and shit-stirring), so they piled all of the normal Rider designs onto Rod Form. Look, kids! He's not some irredeemable asshole! He's got those bug-eyes you love! And a Rider Kick! Please buy Rod Form merch!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switchblade (Post 791869)

One of the things I really love about the Den-O designs is the modularity. All of his base forms use the same armor, just with the pieces rotated into different positions with some bits closed up or folded out. It's a nice touch and it works well with the fact that all of his weapons are just different configurations of the Dengasher's pieces. It's a neat trick that not enough Rider shows use.

I always feel like a hypocrite for saying this, considering my ideal Rider aesthetic is Ex-Aid, but... too many colors on Rod Form for me, and it's down to that red backpiece. Just draws my eye in an unfortunate way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switchblade (Post 791869)

As for the episode itself... well, it certainly happened. I remember all of these early arcs of Den-O that bring in the new Imagin and all the various victims of the fortnight... except this one. Daiki and his story are both really bland. The main things I remember have nothing to do with him and are more about Urataros lying about his backstory (still a good gag even on my third time through) and the horny head nurse (also a gag that exists). It's not a high point and I like the follow-up arc (and its main guest star) a lot more.

Yeah, this was a story it seems like they hadn't totally figured out. It's not aggravating or anything, it's just underwhelming. Looks like Fourze maintains its record for Longest Opening String Of Great Episodes for another few months!

DreadBringer

02-25-2021 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die (Post 791819)

KAMEN RIDER DEN-O EPISODE 6 - “A SWINDLER’S DIGNITY”

I still didn’t really care for it, though. Even once Ryotaro gets involved, a lot of the details feel fuzzy, and the attempt at a moral feels incredibly forced. There’s a bunch of stuff, but not much ever feels like it’s escalating consistently, and there end up being a weird amount of unnecessary elements. It's a story that seems to value ambiguity over clarity, and I don't love that trade this early in a series. It’s sloppy, and only a few beats really landed with me.

I think my favorite thing from this whole story is how much it rests on the shoulders of Hana, and how she could basically solve this whole case by herself. There’s that scene where she’s yelling at Daiki, and he’s like I Only Know How To Get Yelled At and she’s like I Only Know How To Yell At People and they’re both like Oh Wait This Isn’t Good. It’s a scene that a worse version of this show would have Ryotaro step into, with him connecting with Daiki while Hana learns from his example. Instead, Ryotaro just smiles as he sees the other two figure out how they’re communicating badly: Hana, with her aggressive need to chastise children who are misbehaving (see also Momotaros and Urataros); and Daiki, with his lies to keep from facing the truth. It’s a very sweet scene, and I loved how it was just two people apologizing for being real bad at responding to people.

It just… it feels like the show is trying to make the story about Daiki being a liar, and I don’t know if that really lands? It’s not like he believed the monster was real until a few minutes before Hana confronted him (so it’s not like he’s been hiding this from everyone all along), and him being a liar isn’t really connected to his failure in the soccer game. It’s like they wanted to do something with Urataros being a liar, but this kid is so tertiary to everything happening in the story that they take one lie (partially told because of Hana being an angry stranger) and try to turn this into A Story About Lying. Which, man, maybe if you squint real hard (the Airimirers help support this read), but not in any way that feels like they’re telling that story well.

Daiki's main thing is probably his fear for monster (and not believing the monster was real is likely him refusing to accept reality out of fear), that he made a deal with a monster, but he made a mistake that he actually dooms others that he regrets making the deal with the monster. Well yeah, for "value ambiguity over clarity", yeah Kobayashi is a show don't tell writer. I still think that Hana's deal to Daiki is significantly less aggressive than how she treats Imagins, don't feel like her being that aggressive, though she's getting there only a bit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die (Post 791819)

The Urataros story is of a cloth with the unevenness of the Daiki story, where his core trait of lying renders any arc with him one that’s kept at a distance. If I don’t believe anything Urataros says (I don’t! I was laughing very hard at Momo and Naomi in the scene where Ura starts crying!), then what’s in this episode isn’t some Hooker With A Heart Of Gold thing, like Ryotaro assumes, but some duplicitous hedonist existing only to manipulate. Is there more to him? Maybe! I don’t know! As it is, I think he’s funny enough, but I don’t really feel much enthusiasm for seeing him in solo-ish action. I didn’t really care about his story by the end, which doesn’t feel like a successful couple of episodes for this show?

I don’t completely love the ambiguity the show tacks onto Urataros’ intentions (just, let me think this dude has some heroic potential!), but I appreciate that Ryotaro wants to see something in him that might not be there. It’s that whole thing about Ryotaro not wanting to introduce pain into the world, so he’d rather give Urataros a chance than punish him needlessly. And Ryotaro seeing Ura’s lies as a gambit to guilt Daiki… yeah, that’s exactly what I thought Ura was doing, so I see why Ryotaro would make that assumption as well. It was a lazy, obvious lie, and pretty much beneath Urataros. (Hana has been very clear that she sees through him!) I think there’s room in there for Urataros to feel slightly offended that Ryotaro twigged to the altruistic failure, and so Ura needs to double-down on appearing selfish, but I think the ending would’ve been better if Urataros would’ve just shrugged off Ryotaro’s theory instead of flatly denying it. Think they went a little too far in trying to walk back Urataros’ teamwork. Some clever bits in there, though!

Based on Ryotaro's image of Urashima no Taro, Urataros is sea turtle-like in appearance and is armed with Uratarod, a rod with hexagonal blades at each end. In a fight, he usually states the words, "Mind if I reel you in?", a fishing metaphor which refers to his lying nature. Urataros is a cool-headed casanova with a very convincing personality who gets people to believe his constant lies. The only one who fully trusts him is Ryotaro, though Urataros felt a bit offended that the human is "trivializing his lies" and explains he lies simply for the sake of lying (although that itself may be a lie to look cool) to please himself. While Momotaros gets Ryotaro in trouble through reckless methods, Urataros puts Ryotaro in conflicting situations when he goes around wooing multiple women. Urataros puts Ryotaro on good luck technically, but of course, it's futile because it's in the way where Ryotaro can't process his new life.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die (Post 791819)

Hana, though! I really dug how central she was in this, and it’s the one purely positive thing to come from these episodes. She just has zero time for problematic children, a trait that’s simultaneously invigorating (she’s had it with these mother******* Imagin on this mother******* train!), and a huge handicap for a show that’s largely about teaching lessons to children. Seeing her be just terrible with Daiki was, no joke, amazing to watch. It’s rare to see a hero on a Kamen Rider show be shit with kids, so that moment where she could see herself making this kid more withdrawn, and how mad she got at herself… I loved it. It’s the smartest scene in this whole story, by miles.

I also liked that this part views a female (not for antagonistic side) being in the wrong instead, and uses the male as an example to follow on. Points out that gender doesn't inherently set up your moral. For Hana's treatment of Imagin though, you probably make a good point about her being aggressive to childrens, but the true reason for her feud with the Imagins is not merely that, but something spoiler-y. But probably this also should put down the arguments about how you can make good children only by being hard and rough on them, and that others should not hold themselves back to deal with children.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die (Post 791819)

The Airimirers are only in one short scene, a decision that is both welcome, because they suck, and retroactively infuriating, because they are irrelevant to the story while factoring heavily into the first part. The previous episode wastes so much time on guys that, at best, minorly support a theme about lying being bad but also sometimes okay if you can use it to help people which they don’t do. Just… just some not great plotting in these two episodes, you guys.

Well sure, they're like the Haima of Den-O, which I knew your feud with. The comic relief character that is yeah, suck and retroactively infuriating, irrelevant to the story while factoring heavily into the first part.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die (Post 791819)

-Rod Form! I don’t love the red Sword Form chest on the back! The rest of it is neat, though, and I love the finisher. Who can say a bad thing about impaling a monster and then Rider Kicking the impaling tool through it?

Rod Form reminds me of Gatack, that head shape. I'd prefer Rod Form to Sword Form in looks, the one thing that puts me off of Sword Form is the eyes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die (Post 791693)

Same? I've had there be one or two times where I've rolled my eyes at a character before finding out that some people adore them (I want to say the character's name was John? Or Jeeves? He was on Agito, that much I know for sure), and I while I didn't really think that'd be the case with any of the Airimirers, we're early enough in Den-O that I was prepared for folks to tell me I'm crazy.

But, nope! They 100% suck!

Consensus in the fandom! WE FOUND IT ON A DEN-O THREAD!

I too don't have anything to defend those 2, but for "Consensus in the fandom", probably most of the threads have people mostly like-minded to you? And dunno for this being a joke or not, but for you being proud of the consensus in the fandom, you'd prefer for people to not make disagreements here?

Kurona

02-25-2021 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mmicb0b (Post 791298)

though Build is worse about this to the point where the entirety of the Hazzard arc might as well be Kachidoki's debut dragged for 5 episodes

Okay old post I know but I was just reading back through the thread and I genuinely don't know how you'd come to this conclusion. I don't want to derail this thread but I really need you to explain this

FreshToku

02-25-2021 02:48 PM

Happy to see you've immediately taking to liking Den-O! You already know how successful it was since you've seen how much of its general formula, tone, and messages remain so consistently present all the way from W to Wizard.

I'm with you on Urataros not making a great first impression, and I'm tempted to say the reason I came around to liking him is... mostly just from long enough exposure? It's weird because I know I was like 'hmm...' when I first watched these episodes, but now when I look back on them, I can only think "oh that classic swindling Ura, this is how it all starts'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurona (Post 791878)

nobody needs to hear that explanation

Kurona

02-25-2021 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreshToku (Post 791880)

I'm with you on Urataros not making a great first impression, and I'm tempted to say the reason I came around to liking him is... mostly just from long enough exposure? It's weird because I know I was like 'hmm...' when I first watched these episodes, but now when I look back on them, I can only think "oh that classic swindling Ura, this is how it all starts'.

Oh, same! Urataros for me literally was just... "eh, I guess I like seeing him again"

Kamen Rider Die

02-25-2021 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer (Post 791874)

I still think that Hana's deal to Daiki is significantly less aggressive than how she treats Imagins, don't feel like her being that aggressive, though she's getting there only a bit.

She is definitely less mean to Daiki than she is to imagination monsters from the end of time, but I would hope that would be the case! Daiki's a kid who screwed up by trying to hide his complicity in the current dilemma, he's not a hijacking ghost with ulterior motives. She mostly just loses her temper at Daiki in frustration, instead of her visceral and constantly declared dislike for Imagins. I mean, she barely threw any cutlery at Daiki; that's how you know she isn't that mad at him!

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer (Post 791874)

For Hana's treatment of Imagin though, you probably make a good point about her being aggressive to childrens, but the true reason for her feud with the Imagins is not merely that, but something spoiler-y.

Sure, I didn't mean to imply that this scene was all about one thing. Hana's a character with a lot of different facets to her personality, and we can see two of them (Destroy Imagins and Bad With Kids) in this one scene. It's good writing!

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer (Post 791874)

Just a joke. I was referencing the rarity in any fandom for 100% agreement. I'm totally okay with folks having different viewpoints! They're generally fun to read!

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreshToku (Post 791880)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurona (Post 791885)

Oh, same! Urataros for me literally was just... "eh, I guess I like seeing him again"

I can see him wearing me down over time. It's a poor debut, but the central concept of The Team Shitstirrer is one that I think any big cast needs. It's mostly how he's deployed: the precise level of shit he's stirring, and the velocity of that stirring. I don't think this story got the values right, but there's plenty of series left to recalibrate them.

Fish Sandwich

02-25-2021 05:16 PM

I recall being disappointed the first time I saw Rod Form's back for much the same reasons as Die, but it's one of those things where eventually I decided I wouldn't have it any other way. I mean, red and blue is like THE heroic color combination, right? At any rate, Rod Form is a design I'm quite fond of, and after seeing that comparison to Gatack and G3, I kinda see why all of a sudden!

Oh yeah, and there's an episode to talk about. I called this arc good when I did my rewatch, and I stand by that, because it's still Den-O, but I also barely had anything to say about them, and would definitely consider it one of the lower points for the show. Rod Form having a Rider Kick was probably the most memorable thing in it to me, too. The ending battle in general is definitely the highlight. From what I can remember, I think it took a bit before I warmed up to Urataros after this too? Man, there sure is a lot of consensus in this thread lately! :p

Kamen Rider Die

02-25-2021 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich (Post 791897)

Oh yeah, and there's an episode to talk about. I called this arc good when I did my rewatch, and I stand by that, because it's still Den-O, but I also barely had anything to say about them, and would definitely consider it one of the lower points for the show.

This is the definition of an unexceptional story, where the things it does right (Hana, Momo, a generally agreeable tone) are overshadowed by a bunch of underwhelming elements (Ura's less-than-charming debut, the Airimirers taking the spotlight, Daiki's story not really coming together, Ryotaro getting shoved to the back). There are a few choices that kneecap the story, but nothing that permanently hobbles the series.

Kamen Rider Die

02-25-2021 09:07 PM

KAMEN RIDER DEN-O EPISODE 7 - “JEALOUSY BOMBER”

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/deno/den70.png

Tough one to talk about narratively, since I definitely don’t feel like I’ve got all the info yet. (Yuumi, especially.) There’s some interesting things happening, but I don’t really feel like I’ve got a handle on the story they’re telling yet.

THE BAGGAGE CAR

Visually, though… this episode was an absolute stunner.

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/deno/den7a.png
It starts with this Ryotaro yawn, big as the screen. He’s not just tired, he’s TIRED. This is an ALL-CAPS episode, where everything is heightened, everything is shouted out as loud as possible… except for what really matters.

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/deno/den7b.png
https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/deno/den7c.png
https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/deno/den7d.png
These beautifully framed shots of Airi and her telescope, a feeling so massive it stays silent. Hope? Joy? Longing? It’s an episode where the biggest emotions are kept inside, hidden from the world. She wants her brother to find his way, to discover what he’s meant for. But what does she want for herself? What is her passion? This is the first episode to really press on what Airi is all about, and it’s as beautiful in its mystery as you’d expect.

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/deno/den7e.png
Great staging for this shot, with Momo and Ura on opposite corners of the frame. It’s this gulf of animosity, where the two of them are like boxers before a match starts.

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/deno/den7f.png
https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/deno/den7g.png
Terrific hero energy in these shots, establishing Hana’s determination and drive.

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/deno/den7h.png
I just love this transitional shot, as UraRyoTaros heads out for a night of romance. Using these blue lights for the scene change… so smart!

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/deno/den7i.png
HOW HANDSOME IS THIS MAN?! Too handsome. I cannot have him spiking the lens like this again, it’s going to make me swoon. I dislike swooning! Not a fan!

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/deno/den7j.png
https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/deno/den7k.png
The lighting in this apartment is so oppressively pink, so distractingly sweet… it’s gorgeous to look at, and an early use of this episode’s main camera trick, this wire/crane shot. Camera up high, static, with a horizontal rotation. It gives a Bird’s Eye View to scenes, appropriate for the story’s Imagin. It also adds a tension to some of the emotional scenes, where we feel like we’re intruding on something private. We aren’t in the scene, like we normally would be. We’re above the scene, prying.

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/deno/den7l.png
https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/deno/den7m.png
The pink of the room is great for how forced it is, which is the key to understanding Yuumi, this story’s victim, played by Ryuki’s Shimada (and Faiz’s Live-Action Hatsune Miku). She’s a fantastic actor , with this face that’s big and round and sad. The way these two shots use the filtered sunlight for her big smile, and then flip her around for this shadowed fear… great use of light. Yuumi doesn’t really get much dialogue in this episode, but the way she carries herself, the way she’s constantly trying and failing to psyche herself up, the way her entire apartment is designed to trick her into being happy… every scene with her in this space is heartbreaking.

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/deno/den7n.png
https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/deno/den7o.png
Hilariously shot gag, with Ura and Momo brawling on the floor like children, Owner threatens to kick them off the train, same over-the-shoulder shot but now they’re chummy. Just a solid, classic gag with perfect execution.

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/deno/den7p.png
The staging of this first MomoRyoTaros scene is intriguing, with all these bikes giving the visual of a cage. Momo is boxed in on all sides in this scene, straining to get some air. It’s the perfect preamble for a big Imagin fight scene.

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/deno/den7q.png
Back to that overhead camera trick, this time to layout the geography of a monster attack. Not really more to it than that, but I like the extra effort being applied to a simple establishing shot. No small roles, etc etc

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/deno/den7r.png
First Den-O shot of the episode, and they put him dead center in frame. So great! Instantly turning up the energy in the episode.

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/deno/den7s.png
https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/deno/den7t.png
Just a stupidly fun fight sequence, with Momo having an absolute blast deflecting the Imagin’s attacks. The whole fight is a winner, from Ryotaro’s gentle scolding of Momo’s excitement, to Momo’s over-the-top joy at getting to test himself in combat, to Momo’s over-the-top despair at the Imagin cutting the fight short. Momo begging an Imagin to come back so he could fight it is maybe the defining moment for that character in my brain right now. He’s nearly beside himself with grief at only getting a portion of a fight. Loved it.

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/deno/den7u.png
https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/deno/den7v.png
This whole thing with the jealous ex-boyfriend showing up at Milk Dipper… it’s a lot. Even for an episode where the jokes are turned up to 11, this scene turns the performances up to 12. It is almost criminally broad. If there was a prison for Wacky Toku, everyone involved in the production of this episode would probably still be serving time there. But! I love the use of lighting on Miura’s face here. Split-second timing to get this gag to work, and they nailed it.

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/deno/den7x.png
And then we’re back at Yuumi’s apartment, and I could not be more impressed with this image. She’s in this cotton candy cocoon and she looks like she’s been sentenced to death. There’s an inextinguishable sadness in her, a void that she’s trying to fill with manufactured joy. Can’t stop staring at this.

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/deno/den7y.png
A real dumb slow-motion punch gag that I laughed real hard at. Starting it with this exaggerated contact and then ending it with an extreme close-up on Airi saying RYO-CHAN and her voice is pitched down from the slowed playback… funny stuff! Very broad! But funny stuff!

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/deno/den7z1.png
https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/deno/den7z2.png
https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/deno/den7z3.png
https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/deno/den7z4.png
https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/deno/den7z5.png
https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/deno/den7z6.png
This whole interrogation scene… I don’t love the Jealous Ex, honestly. He’s so insanely over-the-top, even for this episode, and the show is scrupulously avoiding giving us any real context for what he’s on about. He’s Angry and Possessive, and it’s hard to see the person inside all of these comedic outbursts. But, man, some clever camera and editing choices here. I don’t know if I love them going so hard on He’s Crazy, but the execution never wavers from its goal.

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/deno/den7z7.png
https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/deno/den7z8.png
https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/deno/den7z9.png
Great use of that birds-eye camera again, this time literally for a bird’s eye. Them swinging a camera over Den-O to simulate the charging and diving of the Imgin is incredibly kinetic, and works great for the cliffhanger. An exciting final fight for an episode of top-shelf camerawork.

Next time: Maybe I’ll talk about the story some!

Fish Sandwich

02-25-2021 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die (Post 791918)

Visually, though… this episode was an absolute stunner.

...And, right on cue, this is the first episode of Den-O directed by Hidenori Ishida! How does he do it? :p

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