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Wait - Hana? Like, main character on the show Hana?

Well. Uh. I guess compounding just how much you're not enjoying this last stretch, getting the major plot twist of the final episode spoiled to you right before you watch it sure is fitting

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Apologies, I thought that was the last episode. I was absolutely 100% certain of it, in fact, or I would never have said anything.

A thousand apologies! Sorry, Die, I kinda ruined things for you.

Edit: I've decided that is unacceptable and have request that account be deleted. I can't bare to show my virtual face around here again. I'll probably still be reading. Thanks for all the insightful thoughts and sorry again for ruining your experience.

I honestly don't mind? I know it wasn't done maliciously (you were trying to help me understand a very confusing plot), and I probably should've put the pieces together myself. Apology accepted!

EDIT: Oh shit, please don't delete your account! I 1000% do not want that to happen! Oh god!

Hey, folks. Let's talk about spoilers.

(I am truly stressing out that this thread is going to cause someone to stop posting on these boards, and writing is a fun way to trick my mind into not being so anxious.)

I talk a lot in the beginning of these threads about my aversion to spoilers. I don't read the Wiki, I don't watch some Next Episode previews, I try not to know anything about a show. My preference is not to know about plot points before they happen on the shows.

But, like, it's just a preference. It's not destroying my enjoyment to get stuff a little ahead of time. If I really wanted to stay 100% unspoiled on a show, there's a bulletproof solution: I do not post on the boards while I watch things. But I'm willing to trade a little bit of spoilers for the chance to discuss these shows with all of you.

Because, god, I'm asking a whole lot, and I know it. I couldn't even post in a discussion about Kabuto right now without accidentally ruining something, and that's a show I watched earlier this year. Remembering exactly what reveal happens on which episode? When you haven't watched them in years? And I'm not exactly bending over backwards to describe what episode we're on? Shit's going to fall through the cracks! I get it! It's fine!

No one has ever maliciously tried to spoil anything, which would probably be my red line. Minor hiccups are going to happen; god knows I'd be even worse at it than y'all. It's not a big deal, and no one ever needs to feel bad about it.

I was watching a TV show episode recently. It was about a superhero that rides a train and helps people. (ToQger? It'll come to me.) When everyone thought a friend of theirs had betrayed them and that betrayal was unforgivable, this hero wouldn't think like that. He tried to remind his frustrated friends that one action doesn't negate all the good someone does, and it's not greater than the good they did. We don't judge people by their recent mistakes, we judge people by the entirety of their actions. One mistake isn't worth throwing away a friendship.

I've said it before, but I consider all of you friends. Giving me the opportunity to talk about these shows with you is way better than the enjoyment of watching even the best Kamen Rider episodes. (DEN-O! That was the name of the show. Knew it would come back to me.) I will never care less about any of you for dropping an accidental spoiler, and I would never want you to think less of yourselves.

These shows... they're just TV shows. Who cares. You're my friends, and I want you to be okay. I want that so much more than watching Kamen Rider.

Maybe a little foreshadowing in the preceding two episodes and bigger stakes than a few mere Moles would have resolved this problem and made Kintaros' and Urataros' heroic sacrifices even more heroic, as they are dramatic? I guess that might have worked a little better, considering Kai is supposed to be going all out on his plan.

Thanks! Or maybe that's not such a good thing. :p

Isn't that a contradiction, to say that the youngest viewer shouldn't be deceived but Ryutaros is, due to his youthfulness? Urataros is a self-proclaimed liar, so even though the deception was also a lie, it was something he warned them about in advance that they shouldn't trust him.

Tomorrow is today now, so Tanjoubi Omedetou!

Hey dude, you don't need to go that far. I also make mistakes, you know? I'm glad you called me out that time, since I felt pretty bad about that for the rest of the day. This kind of thing happens sometimes when people get excited about upcoming plot twists.

Maybe? I'm at this weird place where intellectually, Kin's actions all add up, but emotionally it's just not getting to the place of Final Sacrifice for me. Like, Kin opting to stay behind to hold off the Moles so that Ryotaro can rescue his sister, even if there's a better solution, that's completely a Kintaros move. But there's just something about it that pales in comparison to Kin's first story, and him going into the past to save Honjou. That story felt tragically heroic, and this one had me thinking You Will Just Jump On Any Grenade. It didn't feel like a heroic choice, it felt like an expedient choice, and the show's inability to separate the two is where they lost me.

Fair! That is a contradictory expectation. I guess there's a difference between the limited information a character has (like Ryutaros) and the more detailed information the viewer has, and it makes it difficult for me to see how any viewer would think Ura has been working them for a year. Luckily, the show tips its hand quick enough for it to not really be a big deal.

I still don't get how this makes Airi mentally weak. Ryotaro doing that I feel doesn't judge if Airi is mentally strong or weak, it's just Ryotaro's perceptive and it can be true or flawed regarding his.

Dunno, I don't even feel that the Imagins are saved from disappearing before, actually between all those times I was just feeling that the (you mean Taros?) Imagins are continue to live on like normal and buying their time before they eventually inevitably disappear.

Oh, regarding Kai, he's already insane before, but his sanity has taken into its toll here, which is also pointed out by his right hand Imagin that his sanity got worsened over time, and that's progressive since his first appearence due to Kai's constant destruction of his past selves and a good chunk of his memories along with them by sending Imagin back in time along with them has left him insane, turning him into certainly a very dangerous and violent individual. He gets progressively more insane and unstable as the series goes on. But after discovering for that Sakurai isn't the Junction Point as he previously believed, he snaps. He tears apart the black calendar he'd been using to plan his attacks, gives all his remaining Imagin physical form, channels everything he's got left into the Death Imagin for an all-out attack on Tokyo. He then proceeds to try and completely erase the entire area from time despite his army still being present. This is actually a villainous breakdown over a failed plan (to make future only about Imagins).

Otherwise, I know this is (hopefully) a joke, and otherwise I know that catharsis factor is also a thing to enjoy for watching shows, catharsis factor is a stuff you do to relieve tension or get stuff off your chest. There are good stuff that comes from this phenomenon like in games where constructing stuff via pixel (and it's good helping) can feel satisfying, though I have a fear too about this phenomenon, I fear about the skewed view of morality and due to this, like regarding characters, where interesting people should always get praise and approval, even those morally bankrupt and causes harm to others (perpetuating them), and people who are hated, like because of them being boring/irritating/annoying but doesn't cause any harm/problems deserve torture and suffering and it's a good thing to do (e.g. people who just can type at computer screen?!).

And cathartic experience can also backfire, like in online multiplayer games with human opponents, where a catharic feeling from string of victories can be ruined by an upsetting loss from another player at the far end of the skill divide. Or in-universe characters, Kai ending the show "prematurely" would just torture or kill any of the Den-O cast that is loved!

Really man? Even I called it out at the end, and likely also the other audience. Urataros' lying qualities is well-known by the cast, like Ryotaro, including the deduction of him not being a bad Imagin if he lies for the sake of people. Others are all shocked about (and there are no Urataros whispering like Kiriya did to Emu) Urataros' supposed betrayal (and if Kohana really distrusts Imagin, then she should just intensify her aggression to the Taros Imagins, and making out declarations like "I knew it that he's never trustworthy as an Imagin!", although it seems that Kohana is a bit softer on the Imagins compared to Hana like some actual concern about the Imagins lying on the ground before iirc), although Momo is just being an idiot who thinks through his emotions I guess like you said. Naomi seems to have her limits here about her darker traits to complain about Urataros' betrayal, instead of being excited at more chaos that can ensue (Urataros betryaing to the enemy side, can likely strengthen them, and intensify the chaos and fight Den-O crew has to go through). Though as it's ep. 48, 1 before the last, all I think was that this is unequal, only Kin (with brute strength) and Ura (with tactics) getting the spotlight of them against hordes of Imagins, but not Ryuta and Momo. I guess it truly is rushed to neglect those 2...

Already happened in that conversation above, but still won't talk more about this, but continuing from before. This is what I meant about Ryotaro and Yuuto not staying still of Airi's dilemma at previous episode, this is their work on that. Above, Kai's sanity has progressively worse over the series and snapped over him being misled about the Junction Point not being someone he looked for, and to me, it's just usual villainous breakdown over failed plan, this part about Airi being pregnant is the work of revealing the real Junction Point that Kai missed on.

Well yeah, Kobayashi's show don't tell trait in her first 2 shows of KR. She won't tell you anything outright, and instead convey through hints, dialogues and character emotions. She also will have multiple plot threads going on, but she'll focus mainly on two - one main and one background, going on at the same time. She goes for jigsaw puzzle plots; goes extra lengths to set up intricate stories, split them up into tiny little bits, shuffle them thoroughly and drops piece by piece in front of the viewer one at a time, and the Junction Point Kai missed is the last piece to yet to be revealed here, but there's 1 episode left. Well, this is subjective but she's said to be used to be really darn good at it, but more recent series and rumination on/Rewatches of many older ones have resulted in the pieces not actually fitting as planned. Otherwise, yeah you can be totally wrong on all this, but I hope that you won't chastise or ignore those who tries to explain or something if there's something wrong (and the don't care declaration).

I̶f̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶r̶o̶o̶t̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶K̶a̶i̶ ̶d̶o̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶s̶o̶m̶e̶t̶h̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶s̶i̶d̶e̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶g̶o̶o̶d̶ ̶d̶u̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶a̶u̶d̶i̶e̶n̶c̶e̶ ̶r̶e̶l̶a̶t̶e̶d̶ ̶r̶e̶a̶s̶o̶n̶s̶,̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶n̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶w̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶e̶n̶c̶o̶u̶r̶a̶g̶e̶ ̶m̶e̶m̶b̶e̶r̶s̶ ̶d̶e̶l̶e̶t̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶i̶r̶ ̶a̶c̶c̶o̶u̶n̶t̶ ̶d̶u̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶e̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶r̶o̶u̶b̶l̶e̶s̶o̶m̶e̶ ̶e̶v̶e̶n̶ ̶i̶f̶ ̶i̶t̶'̶s̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶m̶a̶l̶i̶c̶i̶o̶u̶s̶ ̶
(̶̶̶t̶̶̶h̶̶̶e̶̶̶ ̶̶̶m̶i̶s̶t̶a̶k̶e̶ ̶̶̶i̶̶̶s̶̶̶ ̶̶̶s̶̶̶t̶̶̶i̶̶̶l̶̶̶l̶̶̶ ̶̶̶t̶̶̶h̶̶̶e̶̶̶r̶̶̶e̶̶̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶c̶a̶n̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶u̶n̶d̶o̶n̶e̶)̶̶̶,̶ ̶l̶i̶k̶e̶ ̶K̶a̶i̶ ̶s̶h̶o̶w̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶t̶i̶m̶e̶l̶i̶n̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶w̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶g̶i̶v̶e̶ ̶u̶p̶ ̶Y̶u̶u̶t̶o̶ ̶t̶o̶.̶

Well, ok, I will celebrate it like this.

Happy https://media.discordapp.net/attachm.../birth_day.jpg!

Really? There's a reason why I'm so afraid of committing mistakes like that, because never live it down is a thing, and depends on the community but there can be those where if that person makes a mistake, others will just constantly bring up that one mistake and urge others to take anything they say with a grain of salt due to that mistake.

KAMEN RIDER DEN-O EPISODE 49 - "THE CLIMAX GOES ON, NO MATTER WHAT”

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/deno/den49a.png
https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/deno/den49b.png

The last few days, I honestly didn't know if I even liked this show. Was I just talking myself into it? Was I fixating on the few things I liked while trying to diminish the many things I didn't? (ha ha) Did I want to like Den-O more than I actually liked Den-O?

And then there's this finale, and I can't stop crying, so I guess I really liked Den-O.

The plot machinations, the Time Nonsense, it's whatever. I'll talk more about its strengths and weaknesses tomorrow in the Series Wrap-Up post (which feels like it's going to be massive; lot of topics to cover), but for this episode, it existed mostly to be a thing to defeat. Like most of the junction point stuff, the Hana reveal is one that feels right while falling apart the second you try and explain it. She's the safety net that keeps Kai from winning long enough for the heroes to defeat him. It's difficult to parse and full of underexplained elements (there was a timeline once where Hana was raised by her parents but Sakurai erased her memory of it, I guess?), and it all shows up way later than you'd like, but it's fine. It's just there to allow for a victory condition. It's not the point of any of this.

The point is about friendship, and memories, and how even when a TV show ends, it gets to live on forever in our memories.

The second half of this episode was probably the absolute best way this show was ever going to end. It's not my favorite series ending or anything (Faiz or Blade, maybe Fourze?), but it's the best version of this show's unflinching sadness and boundless optimism.

Having the Imagin just disappear after Kai's defeated is heartbreaking. No tearful goodbyes or supportive morals, they're just gone. It's impossible not to feel shocked by that, to not have that visceral stab of loss push you to tears. All these characters you spent a series with, and that's it. Gone. Ryotaro's grief was just a mirror of what I was going through. Like Yuuto, I'd've eaten a thousand bowls of (gross) mushrooms to honor Deneb's passing. It's incredibly effective as tragedy.

And then the reveal that, no, of course all of these heroic imagination monsters from the end of time aren't gone. They wanted to wait a beat, then surprise their friends, but now the moment has gone on a little long and oh no they are crying really hard and it feels bad and uh oh this joke is going to feel a little cruel now and uh he's still crying and now Hana's crying too and Sieg's realizing that Ryotaro didn't even mourn him like the rest and they're all being a little too loud and the jig is definitely up because Ryotaro is looking this way hi I've arrived ha ha whoops.

It's this impossibly difficult transition from tears of sadness to tears of relief, and I'll probably praise Kobayashi for it forever. As frustrating as her inability to do a mystery plot is (her skipping one in OOO, or at least not calling it out, is probably why it's my favorite work of hers so far), her ability to nail emotion is unsurpassed.

The whole point of this series is that even when things end, as they inevitably do, they never really end as long as we remember them. It's a lesson that's important for kids, who are going to gain and lose friends rapidly over their adolescence, but it's one we could all stand to consider more often. Our memories are our strength, and they testify to our convictions. People change and grow, but there's a part of all of those relationships that we'll carry around forever. It's not a loss when someone's not around, because they're always around as long as we remember them. The past should always give us strength, you know?

That's a nice sentiment, for a lovely finale.

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/deno/den49c.png

THE BAGGAGE CAR

-A lot of little touches that I liked in this episode.

-There's a moment where Kai just does a two-second scream of frustration, out of nowhere, and it's a great piece of acting. It's not a huge close-up or a dramatic wide-shot. He's just got this scream of frustration in him that he needs to get out, and it really helped center him in one of his final scenes.

-It looks like the show added some dust to the puffs of smoke when Imagins got hit in the fight scenes this time. I noticed it a bunch in the Momo section. Could just be the winter chill getting the smoke to come out a little thicker, but to me it looked grittier. Definitely made Momo's sword strikes seem deadlier, like chunks of the monsters were being hacked off.

-The Death Imagin wasn't even really a character, but I liked the visual of everyone sharing a finisher on him. It's teamwork, and friendship, and everyone winning the day together. Pretty much how the final move in Den-O should go.

-Boy, I'm going to be crying about this finale for a day, aren't I? Goddamn.

-It's Androzani84's birthday!
https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/...hdayhibiki.png

Oh wow, was there a reveal about Hana? I totally forgot. All I really remember is the gang all teaming up to deliver one extended finisher on the final Imagin, the humerous fake-out of the Imagin's disappearanc and immediate reunion. ...And that's probably the only memories one really needs of the finale, I think.

I heartily encourage you specifically to stop posting.

Yeah it's a real winner for how willing it is to make you as happy as possible at the end of the series. Sakurai disappears (without any dialogue!), but who really cares. (I mean, Airi, but she's got hope.) The rest of the episode is everyone getting to live, and be happy. Sieg even joins the crew, because why the hell not. It's a maximalist climax, where everything you want to have happen, happens. Deneb and Yuuto do a stereo catchphrase!

Also, hey, boy, can we not make light of catwhowalks checking out. I don't want to scold anyone for being discourteous about it (I don't want tension or drama!), but it's not something I feel like I should need to point out. It's stressful for them, and it's stressful for me, so maybe let's leave it alone and move on.

I reached out to catwhowalks personally to let them know that the door is always open for them to return, but it sounds like this is a step back they want to take right now, so let's all be respectful of that. I'd prefer not to read any more jokes about it. Thanks for being considerate!

It's not Blade's ending, no, but Blade's ending murdered me to death and I might have run screaming from Kamen Rider if we'd had another one like that just 3 series later... :lol I did love this ending for Den-Oh, and it's stuck with me really, really well. Kobayashi's ability to nail emotion is something I love about her writing and I will happily watch pretty much anything she's ever done regardless of the rest of its flaws when it gives me moments like this one. It makes me v happy that it resonated with you, too. :)

I want to say that I also enjoy the Time Nonsense but then it occurs to me that I somehow completely forgot that Hana was their kid All Along so apparently I am less attached to the Time Nonsense than I thought I was, haha

My favorite specific thing about this finale is that Sato absolutely nailed the scene of Ryotaro mourning his lost friends and then finding them arguing about their prank, and I think it's arguably his best (of many great) moments on the series. His FACE, it also killed me, but, you know. In a good way.

There's so much warmth in this ending, and it's exactly what this show needed. There's still loss, of course; Ryotaro turns in his Den Pass and says goodbye to his friends. But even that loss is mitigated by the hope for a reunion and the memories of their time together. It's a finish that's all about happiness.

Yeah, it's a super-weird thing because it's a reveal that is 100% Time Nonsense. It exists to dot a Plot i and cross a Motivation t, but it doesn't really have any emotional weight to it. Ryotaro says it to throw in Kai's face, to seal the heroes' victory, but we never see Hana react to it. She never has a scene with Airi after we find out about it. It's just, like, a detail, and that's why it's Time Nonsense.

The brilliance of that performance! It got me to not care that I knew that all of those imagination monsters from the end of time would be showing back up within minutes! Really landed that beat.

Yeah, a kid with fourth wall awareness is capable of making better judgement about other people than a kid without, who only has his own experiences to draw from. Also, Ryutaros has only recently learned to dissociate between reality and imagination and he's prone to manipulation from people like Gaoh. Manipulation is definitely a part of Urataros' skillset.

It's all there in the title. All of the plot, the mystery, the confusion, none of that matters. That's not what Den-O is about. The climax goes on, cause of the passionate feelings shared by the characters and the memories they cherish from their adventures. Those things don't go away even with the flow of time, since the past is the foundation that creates the way for the future. That's why these characters can keep coming back, no matter the plot or the villains they face, since people will always remember them and the connections they made across time.

Well Sakurai can't really erase Kohana's memories, since she's a Singularity Point. Any changes in her past have no effect on her, so she remembers the events of overwritten timelines. It's probably since she was so young when Airi and Sakurai sent her away that she has no memories of that time. However, this does finally explain why she was de-aged after Zeronos used up the last of his Altair/Vega cards, since they included Sakurai's memories of her. It's a shame all this plot twist gets is a flashback and a quick expository line from Kohana, since she doesn't really get much opportunity to react to it. Suddenly being related to several main characters seems like it would be more of a big deal. Imagine how many unfortunate Ryoutarou/Kohana shippers (this used to be popular) had their hopes crushed though!

For sure, the scene with Yuto eating the mushrooms and crying over Deneb is probably the saddest moment of the finale for me and the most I've ever related to Yuto.

My favorite Kobayashi KR show is actually this one, Kamen Rider Den-O, while my favorite Kobayashi Tokusatsu show overall is Timeranger.

I think Death Imagin might be even more unpopular than Kai. Actually, on the first watch, I thought they were the same character, since Death doesn't really have one of his own.

If that person makes a mistake, ignores it and repeats it frequently, then they will gain a reputation for being incredulous. But if they acknowledge it, then they can learn from it, which makes it less likely to happen again in the future. Being wrong is just an opportunity to become more right. Like Die said, it's better to judge people by the entirety of their actions, rather than letting one negative action overshadow all their good contributions. It can be helpful for that person to know that their mistake isn't unique to them and that there are others who blunder the same way.

Maybe PM me if you want to reply to this since Die doesn't want any more comments on this subject.

It's sort of a companion to Hibiki's finale, in the way that it's a creator telling you that it's okay to leave your imaginary/TV friends behind as you grow up, since the memories will stay with you. The Imagin leaving on the DenLiner as Ryotaro watches them go... I mean, Ryotaro is us at that point, right? He's watching his friends leave him, but only for a little while. It's okay for him to be on his own, because he'll keep them in his heart. I think that's a nice way of soothing the bittersweetness of Den-O ending as a show.

But she wasn't even born when her timeline was destroyed by Kai? Like, she was barely an inch long? I'm not sure how her living her life, like, works after that. Even for a show with a cellphone that can raise the dead, Hana being a fetus with no timeline that shows up as a 19-year old woman... I don't understand how that's possible?

It definitely comes across as Oh Did We Not Mention This, which explains why so many viewers forgot it even happened!

And thus we arrive at the terminal. For now.

Yeah, it's like, The Climax Goes On... into a billion hours of additional content. I'm currently planning on squeezing in all of the 2007 and 2008 content after I finish Kiva, and then all of the post-Kiva Den-O stuff after Decade. I gotta take a break from this series, even if I love the characters. But it'll all get covered down the line.

(There's also Sunday's Series Wrap-Up post and Monday's Poorly-Named Thread Wrap-Up post to "look forward to".)

Kai Its one of the worst villains I have ever seen.

I took me a good few years to watch Den-O. I started out back when TokuNation did Let's Watch Wednesdays, but as I often do, I lost track around the teens and left it. Every so often, I came back it watch another 5 or so episodes over a couple of days, then left it again. I've no idea how I ended up in that situation, I guess after a while it was just the done thing. Even with all that going against it, Den-O's finale still hit the mark. The timey wimey nonsense, yeah, it's frustrating how all the emotional stuff is built on something that fundamentally makes no sense... but the emotional stuff is so good, it's worth it. Yuto sobbing as he scarfs down the soup, the gang pranking Ryotaro, him cycling away as he goes to live his life until the next crossover needs him, all great images.

Also, I've just realised, Build pulls the exact same trick with its finale! Even down to the timey-wimey stuff making no sense!

Me neither.

Fair enough, although as an exception, I would recommend watching Chou Den-O & Decade between Decade Episode 15 and 16.

Hmm? What didn't you understand about Build's world merge?

Kai is maybe my favorite Kamen Rider villain of all time. Sorry he didn't work for you!

I love these weirdos so much. Gruff peach monsters and sleazy turtle monsters and soft-spoken boys and sociopathic dragon monsters and steadfast bear monsters and mushroom-hating forgotten warriors and kindhearted sisters and overinvested servants and close-up-magic train owners and vinyl-clad timepiece-enthusiasts forever.

Ha ha, yeah, I guess! Den-O swings it all a lot further, with the fakeout. Build lets Sento feel okay in his sacrifice, before a (typically, eternally, adorably) confused Banjou shows up to lessen the sting. Den-O is, like, All Of Your Monster Friends Are Dead And You Couldn't Say Goodbye for like, a couple minutes before they spring the gag on you. This one hit way harder!

I will try to remember that! There's a bunch of logistical stuff to the Decade thread that may prevent that, but I'll try to do it right!

KAMEN RIDER DEN-O - SERIES WRAP UP

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/deno/denseriesa.png

For what looked to be a straight-forward(-ish) adventure show at the outset, Kamen Rider Den-O left me with a lot of little pieces to pick at afterwards.

--

Every Heisei Kamen Rider series exists on a spectrum. At one end is the question How Do We Live With Each Other. At the other end is the question How Do We Live With Ourselves.

This isn't to say it's the entirety of what a series wants to talk about, or ends up communicating, but you can plot every series at a proximity between those two questions. Like, Kuuga is a series that's about how we live with ourselves, as dramatized by Godai's struggles with power and violence. Ryuki is a series about how we live with each other, what with its Riders and their individual goals, and how difficult it can be to understand other people's motivations. Faiz exists at a midpoint between the two, using Takumi's battle for self-acceptance as a window into a story about how two cultures vacillate between isolation and assimilation. (Faiz is the best.)

Den-O is a very much a series about how we live with ourselves. There are other people in Ryotaro's life, and he cares for them, but the series is focused with laser-like precision on his (and, separately, Yuuto's) journey towards self-actualization. It's about Ryotaro controlling the various aspects of himself, illustrated by the Imagin, and coming out the other side a hero. It's about memories, and how we should try to draw strength from even the worst of them. It's about the trap of nostalgia, and the danger of ignoring the present. It's about the future as a thing that we're working towards, not a place that's waiting for us. All of that is an internal journey, a process we each have to navigate in our hearts and minds.

It's kind of amazing, for a show almost defined by its phenomenal ensemble, that it ends up being a story about the hard work we end up doing in secret.

--

I get why folks who watched the show already are, at a minimum, able to look past the series-arc to see the astonishingly good character work. There's a ton about the story that only makes sense in retrospect. Almost all of the context for everything that's happening gets explained in the final six episodes. (If then!) Once you know what Sakurai's up to and how Yuuto fits in and why Hana's alone, it just becomes pleasant background noise. Wallpaper to occasionally acknowledge while you laugh along with your multi-colored monster friends.

It's just, before you reach that point, it feels like the show is stopping every few episodes to point out the wallpaper, to make sure you're really listening to the weird sounds in the background. There's this frustrating emphasis on reminding you that There Is A Mystery, even as the show is working hard to not explain or progress that mystery. It's constantly disrupting the agreeable tone the show has, slowing down the hectic pace of adventures to have characters scrunch up their faces in consternation. It adds a confusing mystery that no one asked for to a genial hangout show.

I guarantee you I'd be more appreciative of what the show was doing with its series-arc if I watched it again right now. I'd be more willing to find connections, to see how the show is using its mythology to support its themes. It's just, the show is so reluctant to point out that it's doing it, like it's ashamed of it, that you can't even have that experience until you're all done. It's a mystery that's more concerned with you noticing there's a mystery than it is with you understanding the mystery, and what it's there for.

It's, by far, the biggest flaw in this series.

--

But those characters! They're so good. It's a cast of ringers, every one of them a lead.

Ryotaro somehow makes the most soft-spoken, unassertive character in Kamen Rider history feel believable as an apocalypse-averting hero. He never really becomes the type of hero who'd carry the world on his shoulders, and that's for the best. So much of Ryotaro's story is about letting other people fight their own battles, and it's nice that the show honors that version of heroism. He's a hero who never wanted to be a fighter, and he saved the day by remembering the things he cared about. I've never watched a superhero show with that sort of character at the center. Ryotaro is the beating heart of this show.

Momotaros! Why would you ever not put Momotaros in other projects! Momo was the first Den-O character I ever met, in an Ex-Aid film, and I get why he was worth bringing back on his own. He's the other half of Den-O, really. Similar to what we'd get a few years later with W, these two characters are, collectively, a superhero. Momo brings the energy, the danger, the humor, the boldness. It's right that the biggest, best scenes in Ryotaro's story are with Momo. The story of them valuing each other's contributions, of them carving out a partnership from happenstance, it's easily worth sitting through the worst of the series-arc stuff. Momo is the beating heart of this show.

I'd have to dig all the way back in this thread to know for sure, but I'd bet I was dismissive of Airi when she first appeared. She comes off as one ingredient too many; an anchor for a show that's sprinting away from Kamen Rider tropes. She's the sibling who runs a coffee shop. Who cares? Well, me, a lot, as it turns out. Airi is the innocence the show is trying to protect, and the world-weariness that comes with that protection. She's someone who has sacrificed so much to create a future for people she can't even remember. She's heroism as infinite empathy, the ability to care about people you've never met for reasons no greater than because everyone deserves to be cared about. Airi is the beating heart of this show.

Yuuto and Deneb are an unstoppable pair. Comedic to an enviable extreme (I could watch an entire series of Yuuto being so embarrassed by Deneb that they wrestle), and a brilliant look at the comfort of a moment. Deneb doesn't exist beyond the boundaries of his service to Yuuto, and Yuuto isn't remembered by the world he's been saving. All they have is one another, and that's shown to be an incredibly precious thing. It's not some half-life either one of them is living, but a joyous trip through time, friends forever, always now. Yuuto and Deneb are the beating heart of this show.

The other DenLiner Imagin, any one of them could've taken Momo's place without this show being anything less than watchable. Ura's scheming gave way to a keen mind that wanted to protect his more gullible friends. Kin's steadfast guardianship kept every other lunatic from literally pushing the train off the tracks. Sieg's nascent view of family was as unexpected as it was heartwarming. And Ryuta's childlike rambunctiousness transitioned, through the tough lessons of community that come with growing up, into something approaching teamwork. Those Imagin were the beating heart of this show.

Hana?€? boy, a hard character to praise. Recasting the actor consigned the character to also-ran status, as useful to the storytelling as Naomi or Owner. She served a function, but they never really told a story about her character after the recasting. Even at the end, when her secret origin is revealed, it's just a weapon Ryotaro uses against Kai. Hana doesn't say it, and we never get her reaction to it. There's a ton of potential in her character, and some fantastic emotional beats in the early going (I'll probably remember her reaction to Kin's sacrifice from the early days of the show long after I've forgotten the rest of her contributions) (I mean, that hostage story is pretty choice, too), but there's no real arc to her story. She wasn't the beating heart of this story, unfortunately.

--

The second half of this series wasn't so much for me. It was more about junction points and Sakurai and Time Nonsense, and I didn't give a shit. See above, you know?

But, man, all them little stories in the first half. Loved them. I loved the little lives that needed to be saved, the micro-traumas to be resolved, the hopes renewed. That was when the show was unbeatable. The loss of those stories, or the space to tell those stories, that's my biggest disappointment over how Den-O turned out.

For me, the series peaked with that Shouko story. 41 and 42 are, in my mind, the finale of the show. It's the absolute pinnacle of what this show did well. There's this little story about valuing the present instead of regretting the past or hoping for the future, with a character I believe in, and some heroes who need to learn that lesson. It's more powerful to me than a hundred Imagin bringing about Armageddon. It's the last moment I felt fully invested in this show. Everything afterwards felt compromised, like I was sifting through dirt to find flecks of gold. But when this show wanted to tell a human story in a world of imagination monsters from the end of time, it was electric.

--

Despite mostly not feeling too great about the second half, and having basically negative patience for Time Nonsense, Kai is maybe my favorite endgame villain in Kamen Rider. Like, full-stop.

I think, and I'm honestly not joking about this, it's because he also doesn't feel too great about the second half of Den-O, and he also has basically negative patience for Time Nonsense. For a show full of half-explained mysteries that the series cannot stop obsessing over, here's Kai explaining his origin and motivation:

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/deno/shrugemoji.gif

That's it! And it's perfect! He doesn't give a single shit about explaining himself or threatening our heroes. He's just doing some dumb job he doesn't care about, and he's okay with you knowing that. His body language is always bored. His schemes are repetitive, because why bother trying to be clever. He's this show's combination of fascination with and ambivalence for an endgame, but as a tall and lanky boy. He's fully committed to a thing he can't muster much enthusiasm for, and he's okay just blowing it all up at a certain point. He's the best villain that a show that resolutely did not need a villain could have.

--

This series wasn't really what I was hoping for, if you're okay with me saying that. I was very into the beginning's melancholy and absurdity and recruitment and human interest. But as the series wore on, it kept putting its emphasis on baffling resolutions that took an additional episode to explain; on Big Mysteries that lacked any context or framework; on Sakurai, a memory of a man, that was a clever concept and an absolutely terrible plotline because he was never ever ever a character that the viewer could care about; on giant battles that snuffed out the smaller delights this show was engineered to produce.

The characters were fantastic. The stories were delightful. The series was aggravating.

Like Ryotaro, Kamen Rider Den-O contains multitudes. I'm sure I'll remember it for quite some time.

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/deno/denseriesb.png

Well, that’s the end of the show. Now, you prepare for the follow ups.

I should probably mention I got introduced to Den-O through said movies, so if there’s anything you find weird compared to the show… I felt that what the show did was weird compared to the movies.

It's going to be a little while before I get to those follow-ups (a break first, then Kiva), but I'm interested to see how the characters evolve and how the New Den-O stuff works. I honestly barely remember the kid from the OOO movies, and the new Imagin (Teddy?), so it's all going to be fairly fresh to me.

All I am gonna say is this show makes me want either fried rice or coffee every time it is brought up. Coffee proper not that funky 90s Nickelodeon-looking stuff the imagins drink. I didn't know it was coffee until Ura's infamous spitting scene. :lolol

Okay, finally sitting down to discuss my thoughts on the last two episodes.

Episode 48 has some of the same problems as 47 for me, in regards to the Urataros stuff. It just doesn't feel like it carries the narrative heft that it wants to and, honestly, feels like it's killing some time before the finale.

As for the finale itself, I like it. Not my favorite in the franchise, not my least. I'm not sure what it is, but it feels oddly low stakes for me. It shouldn't, between the destruction of an entire timeline and the armies of Imagin taking advantage of the show's reduced Rider population. We get a big reveal about Hana, Yuuto permanently erases Sakurai's existence, there's a "cheers love, the cavalry's here!" moment with Sieg, of all people... it should feel bigger than it does. It's good, and that Sieg moment in particular was fantastic, but it still feels relatively low key. I think a lot of it boils down to how simple and straightforward the final boss fight is? The Gorenger style bouncing attack is cool and all, but it basically amounts to one shot, a dead Imagin, and then Kai just disintegrates. I don't know. Something about that whole element of the finale didn't really do much for me.

The aftermath, though, that stuff was gold. Even knowing it was coming, the scene with the Taros squabbling while trying to hide and thereby giving away their cover is hilarious. The Yuuto and Deneb scene is really touching and all of the Airi stuff is... there. I really love the last few minutes, though, with Ryotaro turning in his pass and then waving goodbye to everyone. It doesn't work as well as it would if I didn't know that there were going to be all the movies and specials and cameos and stuff, but it's still a really nice, touching ending.

Man, am I curious to know how all of this would have played out if Hana's original actress hadn't left. I don't know if there would have been any real difference, but I'm also not sure if having a child Kohana made it easier to work her in as Airi and Sakurai's child. Not sure.

You know, for how much it's seemed at points over these last few episodes that you're practically kicking yourself for kicking this series as much as you have, I kinda think that complex jumble of feelings you're carrying is as appropriate as you could get for Den-O.

But before I dive into that, I do need to tie a bow on my two go-to moves for this thread: first by pointing out that the title for episode 48, with Urataros' big sacrifice, is Urahara na Wakare in Japanese; and second, by just straight up linking you to my whole post about the last three episodes and some of my thoughts on the series as a whole. It's not exactly some thorough analysis, but I think it gets my genuine passion for the show across pretty well.

And of course, yeah, like I said in the post I quoted right at the start of the thread, this IS very much my favorite Rider show by Kobayashi. It's not even a close call, and that's insane to me when I step back and think about it, because I can be awful at picking favorites. There should be a voice in the back of my head whenever I type a statement like that second guessing the opinion. Telling me in this case that I owe some kind of loyalty to OOO, or reminding me of what an impact Ryuki left, or whatever else. Not like it's some zero-sum game, mind you, but still, it's unusually easy for me to commit to those words – Den-O is my favorite.

The way I put it in those posts, which you've just seen mentioned if you clicked that link, is that something about Den-O is just magic to me, and, over a year and a half removed from that post, I suppose I never have found a better explanation than that yet. It's a series that snuck its way into my heart before I even realized it, and was bound never to leave as soon as I did. My beautiful little fog bank, as it were.

That comparison you made is still something I keep coming back to, because it really does say it all when it comes to the differences in how we see this show. I can comprehend why someone would desire more clarity from it, but I can't imagine asking for that myself. Den-O to me, it's a show all about the impossibly fragile yet boundlessly resilient nature of memory. The things we want to hold dear, even when they slip through our fingers, the things we'd rather cast aside, even knowing they can't be undone, and how all of those past experiences can be equally important to create a hopeful future. The whole thing about Time Nonsense... I honestly do see it as a true positive for the show's narrative. Not even something to be merely forgiven or ignored. The amount of screentime dedicated to people desperately chasing after a life that's already gone, or to fruitlessly trying to fit together murky, confused, and incomplete information into something comprehensible... I think it's fair for me to say that's all very much on point, considered plotting for what the series is about, the same way it's fair for you to say it doesn't make for the most entertaining experience as a viewer. But man, man, as fair as that it is for you, I can't pretend there isn't a part of me that wants to come out and say that asking Den-O to do anything else would be actively diminishing its beauty.

And, hey, I guess I just did say that, huh? I'm pretty confident after so many of these threads that you'll understand my point there is less about you and more about simply how deep my fondness for this show is. As ever, you've done a great job expressing how you feel, and I don't want to make it sound like I think you did this show dirty or anything insane like that. Your honesty about what you got out of Den-O – whether it was regarding the parts you adored, or the ones you didn't – is very much appreciated. Of course I'm okay with you saying Den-O wasn't what you were hoping for. After all, that's part of what Den-O was all about, right? Things don't always go the way you hoped for, but that doesn't mean the journey was without value.

Nah, I just want a ton of frosting like Naomi serves it. Yuuto's right: coffee is too bitter. That's why everyone gets along with him! Because of his universally popular opinions!

I think the biggest problems for the scale of the final episode are that we don't really see anyone outside of the heroes reacting to the threat (there aren't civilians in obvious jeopardy, no returning guest stars to re-endanger), and that the Imagin assault is just There Are A Whole Bunch Of Monsters. There's a point when they're attacking the hospital to get at Airi, but then Deneb defeats them all? Off-screen? There aren't any cool strategies or shocking twists, outside Sieg showing back up when Naomi arrives. It all just ends up feeling like busywork, something to do until everyone starts crying.

I feel like we would've gotten one less Yuuto spotlight, to make room for a Hana spotlight. There probably would've been a tease about her connection to Sakurai and/or Airi, something to make her a little more central to the conclusion. It definitely would've helped the final string of episodes, for me at least.

It is incredibly funny to me that the thing this thread most got right, was the most insightful about, wasn't even really about Den-O, it was about how Fish and I approach art differently. When you gaze into the Kamen Rider Die Watches thread, sometimes the Kamen Rider Die Watches thread gazes back. Hilarious!

I've always tried to be upfront about how subjective I think art is, and how the last thing anyone can ever do is convince someone that they've experienced art wrong, but it probably bears repeating here, after I've dismissed whole swathes of narrative and given a Kai-esque shrug to attempts at clarification. I totally get what you're saying about the murkiness of Den-O's plot being a positive, even if I can't access that emotion when I watch it. There's a fairytale aspect to Den-O as a series, where things happen because it feels like they should. It's a series that is Evocative in a way few other shows are, and that attribute is always going to be given different values by different viewers. I can appreciate that.

That said, OOO is best Kobayashi. OOO is your favorite, like it's everybody's favorite. Please correct your original post.

Congrats on another season finished, Kamen Rider Die-O.

He gave them all Deneb candy and they went away. Foolproof strategy.

I've... finished!

(I wonder if Momo was kicking himself for not saying that as he faked his death.)

(And thanks!)

It was a seven-minute slideshow on how to Please Get Along With Yuuto, and the Moles decided that they'd rather turn to dust than spend one more minute hearing about why Yuuto is worth tolerating.

Whatever your verdict for Kai is, please please please watch Ultraman Orb. Hideo Ishiguro came a long way from Kai to Gai in a span of 9 years and it is his best work to date. And it is 25 episodes if I recall. Gai is every Clint Eastwood cowboy but with a funky harmonica, loves public bathhouses and soda pop. :lolol

I dunno, her rider stuff is good, but her sentai shows are better. Not perfect but better.

Oh Den-O... What a peculuare series you are.

One of the few that can make me slam my head against the wall because of some nonsense, or one of the, for me, unbearable characters, and ten seconds later I'm balling my eyes out.

The show has amazing highs, like a certain talk inside the terminal between Ryotaru and Momotaros, and in general, their friendship, which I even find better than Ankh and Eiji, is absolutely fantastic! Same with Yuto and Deneb.

But the lows are abysmal and sadly, typical for almost any Kobayashi show, minus OOO's. I can't stand the three other residents of the Den-Liner with their just annoying character quirks that seem to overshadow them as actual characters. The show lacks a good sense of momentum and the villain, in typical Kobayashi fashion, is a big fat nothing. Granted, none of these problems are as egregious as in her Sentai outings, where these things tend to tank the show for me in general, but still...

All that said, I liked my time with this show. It wormed itself into my heart, even if it's a love-hate relationship.

And now I want to watch Final Countdown again :D

https://allears.net/wp-content/uploa...in-america.gif

I'm sure I'll be doing some Ultraman stuff at some point. It's a real blindspot for me (literally no idea what the premise really is, despite seeing it satirized a little in the Kaijumax comic), and once I finish Saber (in 2022) I'll be checking out Sentai and Ultra stuff in-between Rider rewatches. Maybe Orb!

I will actually fight for the storytelling brilliance of making Kai a disinterested "big fat nothing" of an endgame villain! This is my Fish Sandwich hill to die on, where I defend something that is objectively lame because its lameness is intrinsic to its success. I have become what I what railed against, and I don't know what to do with that.

Beyond that, yeah, complicated feelings about Den-O! Same! It's not one I can endorse wholeheartedly, but it was a fun show to spend a couple months with. There's some real big wins nestled against some shocking disappointments. Glad it ended up kinda sorta winning you over!

Ultraman's premise is pretty basic: giant alien comes to Earth bonded with or disguised as a human, fights to protect the world from giant monsters. Whereas Kamen Rider and Super Sentai are more of super-hero shows, Ultraman tends to skew more towards sci-fi. Many shows involve some form of human support team that investigates and/or also tries to fight the monsters.

Orb is an excellent starting point and it would also set you up to watch the truly fantastic most recent series, Z. 2005's Max, which co-stars Ryotaro's former classmate, is also a good place to start.