whoa whoa whoa SLOW DOWN. You keep throwing these vague, hard-to-follow terms at me, it's going to be the series-arc of Den-O all over again and no thanks. Like, there's all this jargon that you haven't explained.

HOW big is "giant"?

WHICH of the Alien movies is he from?

WHERE is Earth?

See, I can't be expected to follow premises like these. It's all so convoluted! Ultra Nonsense!

Almost half as big as a first generation XBox controller.

The one where they take over an office building in New York and Tony Randall does the Alien Queen's voice.

Just outside Akron, Ohio.

And that's why we're here to give you accurate and helpful answers to your questions.

And that's why I'm here: to be the person that needs all of these things explained to them. Will you all explain things to me until the very end?

I'm not gonna fight you on that, Kai ain't worth that time :D But, fair I guess, he's by far one of Kobayashi's better villains by the simple fact that he's not really annoying, like a certain computer virus that acts more like a bratty child that didn't get his sweats...

So, yeah, his weakness doesn't detract like it usually does.

My problem with Kai that I do not know what is he? Why he so powerful? Why Imajin follow him? And also he is not that threatening.

So, two answers to Kai's deal.

The first answer is couched in the world of the show. His mystery is what makes him so terrifying, as does his contradictory demeanor. He's Ryotaro inverted: externally charismatic and internally blank; chewing up memories because they're just fuel for him; bored by adventure; using the Imagin as cannon fodder. He's scary because he's the horrifying alternative to being a Singularity Point. He comes from nowhere, he can be anywhere, and he answers to no one. He's a metaphor for all the things we want to forget, the parts of ourselves we'd rather burn up to reach a blank slate. Ryotaro is about the power of memory; Kai is the seductiveness of forgetting.

The second answer is that Kai is the show's self-critique of endgame villains, and how you could do one on a show that's all about internal journeys. Kai doesn't give a shit about explaining himself, because the show doesn't give a shit about explaining Kai. The point of Kai is to be a somewhat arbitrary menace to defeat, but nothing that should pull focus from the character development. Kai needs to be not that important, or the show loses what everyone's watching it for.

If Kai seems underwhelming, I'd argue that a) that's what makes him hard to predict as a villain, and b) what makes him such a unique take on that character type. He's a world-destroying villain who is bored of the World-Destroying Villain trope. I really love that approach.

Climax Deka should in near beginning of Kiva. The Final Countdown after Kiva. The battleship movie during Decade. New Denso after Decade.

Alternatively, Climax Deka could come never, save yourself a wasted hour or so?

Your thoughts on Kai being great because they don't actually go into any detail about him... You truly have already become Fish and their love of fog banks.

It's, like, the one part of my brain that's like Let This Perfect Mystery Stay Mysterious And Perfect. It's a dude who shrugs when the heroes ask him if he's the endgame villain! I can't believe I have to defend him!!!

I guess, to walk back the Fish comparison, I additionally like that the show never made a big deal about Kai's history or connection to the series-arc. He's a metaphor, and an obstacle, and that's it. Maybe it's lazy writing (I could listen to that argument without agreeing with it), but there is absolutely zero narrative tension expended on Kai's secrecy, and I love that. It's the opposite of the Sakurai stuff, where the show couldn't shut up about it past a certain point. Kai exists, and that's sort of it.

Next up - Die defends Jean from Kuuga as being *intentionally* the most annoying character he's ever seen.

But I think Kai can get away with having, like, nothing behind him because the show is focused on how Sakurai and Airi are going to create a new future or something like that. Because of that, he's inherently reactive to that - it doesn't matter who Kai is, or why he opposes it, only that he's a hinderence to the plans. (The plans making no sense beyond 'Uhhh junction point no future' may or may not be a plus). I'm not really on Die's side on this - I'm not the biggest fan of Kai beyond the joke of "Of course the show bad at a long term plot just has the villain not care about it - but seperating him out from the timey wimey ness, he's fun on screen, and he plays off Ryotaro well.

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/kuuga/kuuga45b.png

Yeah, Kai's arc is Destroy Junction Point > New Information > Destroy Junction Point Again > New Information, and so on, ad infinitum. He doesn't understand the plot anymore than the viewers, so his plans are only ever going to have so much scope.

(Plus... the more he learns about the plot, the angrier he gets, and I love that. I will never not love that.)

Hot take! Jean is my favorite Kuuga character! And you can't change my mind!

I'm dead serious!

KAMEN RIDER DIE WATCHES KAMEN RIDER DEN-O - THREAD "WRAP-UP"

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/deno/threada.png

Before I forget, a quick thank you to the producers of Den-O for shouting me out in the finale. I didn't know they were reading this thread, and I appreciate that they wanted to support it in some small way, even if I was critical of their work. Class acts, the lot of them.

--

And that's it for Kamen Rider Die watches Kamen Rider Den-O! ... for now.

Yeah, there is an entire folder on my hard drive labelled Post Den-O, and it is full of video files. I'd originally thought I'd do some before I got to Kiva, but that's not happening. I really need a break from Den-O for a minute, and I'd like to start Kiva in not too long. So what I think the plan is going to be is to do some Den-O stuff after I watch Kiva (the various animes, the Final Countdown film), and then do the rest (Cho Den-O, etc) after I watch Decade. I gotta take it in chunks. There's just too much Den-O, if such a thing isn't blasphemous.

Usually I?€˜d be all See You Around and let this thread simmer on the backboards, but instead I'll be resurrecting it after the Summer Of Inoue, and then again after the Winter Of Our Decade Content. While I'll be jumping off for a couple weeks of resetting my brain, this thread is, and always has been, yours to enjoy. The Climax never ends!

--

Hey, since I finished Den-O, I can open the Sword Form/Gun Form Seihou I bought months ago! Let's see how it is!

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/...enswordfig.JPG

Uh, not great! His arms lack the ability to do the really extreme (i.e. Popular and Famous) Sword Form poses, so he's not as dynamic looking as I'd like. The form change gimmick causes his thigh pieces to pop off every other goddamn minute, which is what I want out of a premium action figure. Haven't messed around with Gun Form yet, since it's late at night when I'm typing this. In a few days, probably.

Multiple criticisms aside, he's a pretty figure? Sword Form's my fave, with Ax a close second, and this figure really does that suit justice. (There's a little bit of excess white paint on one of his forearms, so it looks like QC is as foreign to Momo as subterfuge.) Typical for me and Den-O, it's not everything I'd built it up to be in my head, but it's still good.

(Incidentally, me moving on from watching Den-O is really just me transitioning into Den-O Merch Form. I've got this figure to keep messing around with, the Figure-Rise kit to try and put together this weekend, and then the first wave of SO-DO Chronicle figures to sticker up. The Climax Goes On... my shelves!)

--

One hundred and one pages of me writing about Den-O gives us this lovely imagery:

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/...enowordart.png

The Word Art site I use didn't have a train as a template shape, so I decided to go the opposite route and use a key piece of Den-O's plot that doesn't even get mentioned until the final few episodes. It's all words drawn from my Google Doc, and it shows how limited and sparse my vocabulary really is. If you notice any fun groupings of words, shout 'em out. "OKAY ANYTHING DENEB" is something I think I've randomly blurted out in the comfort of my home, so that seems pertinent.

--

I don't know how this thread did. Reflective of Den-O's cheery exterior giving way to melancholy and hardship, this thread... man, the last week or so has been sort of rough. I had a not real great time with some of these episodes, definitely lost a little bit of sleep over it, and we had a board casualty of sorts in someone checking out from posting due to this thread.

That last one. That one stings? I'm of the Ryotaro mindset, where anything that hurts people isn't worth doing, so I'm not feeling totally all-the-time good about myself doing these threads, knowing it made someone want to stop posting. There're these moments where it's like... I don't know. It's like this thread has blood on its hands now, and I never wanted that. I don't like feeling responsible (in whatever non-zero percentage) for someone having a worse time on these boards. That's a pill I never wanted to swallow. I've only ever wanted to be additive to the experience of being a toku fan, since this board has been that for me.

And, additionally, dunno if this was my best work. Couldn't tell if anyone was having fun? The write-ups... it's another Ryuki thing, where I don't feel like I was getting ahold of it all. (Kobayashi! I don't know how to talk about your creations!) There're a few I can look back on and feel a little pride in. 7 and 8, the split-couple story with Shimada in it. 41 and 42, the Shouko story. That whole ToQger Is Actually Den-O bit was an entertaining writing exercise. (Thanks to AkibaSilver for the suggestion!) Really liked getting to geek out over Kai and Deneb. The rest of it, eh. Felt facile to me? Didn't really feel like I was doing more than describing an episode. I don't know. It was fun for me to do, but I don't know that it was a Best Thread or anything. I hope people had a good time with it?

As always, please don't take my criticisms (or guilt?) as indications I'm giving up this ridiculous hobby. Excited to start watching Kiva in a few weeks. (INOUE FOREVER!) Not sure precisely when that's going to be, but May 6th seems pretty likely. Hopefully that'll be fun for everyone to chime in on, should they have thoughts on Kiva.

Until then, thank you to everyone who participated in this thread. I literally only do this to get a chance to talk with you about the shows I'm watching, so thanks for making it worthwhile. There's a lot I could say to show my gratitude, but I'm sure I couldn't say it better than Airi:

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/deno/threadb.png
https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/deno/threadc.png

Thanks for reading! See you in May for Kiva, and back here for more Den-O in a few months!

Good stuff. :rock:
A word of advice for Kiva; prepare yourself for one epic soap opera that involves vampires and music. And Inoue. :lolol

Wow. :lolol

When it comes to the thigh pieces of Seihou Den-O, try shaving the pegs down slightly. The reason they pop out is because the pegs are too long, according to nearly all of the reviews I've watched.

I think I'm probably just going to go with Plan B, which is Maybe Don't Touch Him A Lot. I'm not terrible handy at modifying figures, but thanks for the tip!

I think this is the part where we discover inoue’s issues with women? I’ve heard kiva has issues with sexism.

Also very heavy-handed toy promotion by Phase 1 standards.

I hope not, but maybe? It's possible, in that I don't have the biggest sample size. Also... I mean, there's his work, and my reaction to his work, and those can be two very different things. I love a lot of Inoue's work because of how progressive it can be read as, not necessarily because of how progressive it's meant as. I'm not sure I've seen much so far that gives me pause, though. His female characters haven't come off any worse to me than his male characters (they're all great?), and what problems I've seen him have with centering women's narratives are largely Kamen Rider problems.

But, yeah, we'll see!

I am an Ex-Aid kid at heart! "Heavy-handed toy promotion?" You are singing my tune!

It's been a long time, but honestly I don't remember it being that much different from "How come Hana doesn't just use the Den-O belt herself?" or "Why didn't Mr. Belt just let Kiriko be Drive?"

Yeah, like: the end of Mai's story in Gaim. I obviously can't speak to Kiva yet, but I feel like nearly every Kamen Rider series has a thing in it where I'm like Did Not Do Right By That Lady's Story.

When it comes to Inoue vs Women, I feel like Hibiki was the worst of it. His other stuff I never got the sense of any active malice towards women.

Oh thank god, I’d heard it was way worse,

Funnily enough, I got the EXACT opposite to this opinion. If anything, Kiva BARELY promotes its own toys. The form changes only have a handful of appearances, with the relevant items being featured more as characters rather than plot coupons, the secondary almost never uses the shows main gimmick even though he can, plus his belt spends half its screen time doing something the toy CANNOT do and whenever the show brings in a super form, the regular form stops appearing soon after.

Kiva is definitely where Inoue's sexism comes to the fore and is the main reason I dislike it so much. Like... holy hell it's bad. Kamen Rider is hardly a stalwart of this kind of thing but little comes to mind that compares.

Yeah... Kiva is very much Inoue at his worst... And that's coming from someone who generally likes his stuff.

It’s less the amount and more the lack of effort to work them into the show naturally.

As I always say, Kiva has its flaws, but the ending songs are all GOAT

Supernova easily makes my top 5 KR insert themes!

Kiva has great tracks tbh.

I also somewhat feel guilt for that crossed out joke and spacing out (especially that I got actually ostracized for it, been dealing with my self-esteem for this place for a while), though the "joke" intended to give tolerance for something wrong. But now I'm going again, sorry if this is to everyone's dismay.

Friendship and memories, in counteract against someone like Kai who cannot comprehend goodness, shrugs off the concept of friendship and doing something for others, and while he had many underlings, he keeps them only via threats and violence and that'd likely create infighting and competition between the Imagins, and that's the thing which hinders the progress of the heroes as well, the infigthing between the Taros Imagins. And yeah, the reveal is here, Hana is the child of Airi and Yuuto Sakurai, so for all this time, Hana is protecting her uncle Ryotaro, and Yuuto was Hana's father. Kai was misled that he thought the Junction Point was Sakurai, and then he approaches Airi, but it turns out to be Hana, and it's already too late for Kai.

Well, if you refer to only the Imagins that is accompanying Ryotaro, as I've used before, they're refered as "Taros Imagins". I dunno which one do you refer here, only the Taros or just the Imagin as a whole. The Imagins (other than Taros) just disappearing, though dunno if it's right to celebrate this moment as a triumph, but it's the world finally being free from the threats of Imagins, with them disappearing. It's the no monsters left anymore some Rider stuffs have.

And you let this one get free pass...? Kobayashi stuff here still applies that the Imagin's origins are never explained. And for myself, about the Taros Imagin actually surviving? Didn't understand that either and seemingly not explained. And dunno if OOO had her skipping it, Kobayashi had proper worldbuilding in OOO.

Because talking about lesson would apply in real life too, just a reminder that most people don't go through dramatic changes in their life all of the time. Otherwise, I've seen a media where a threat to the memory can be weakening and demoralizing to someone, where losing memories bit by bit would break them down even further. Though it depends about someone not being around. It's alright if it's just them not being in the same place, but it's to me painful if them not being around is caused by them betraying you big time, all the memories about previous relationship are just fake, and like you said it testifies convictions, like trusting no one from that.

Kai is already insane to begin with, and his right hand Imagin notes that he's getting worse over time and he reached his breaking point for his failure in his plans here. Kai got desperate to use a dangerous technique of his to create Death Imagin an an army of Mole Imagin from all his remaining memories and it ultimately results in him ceasing to exist when Death is killed.

Yes, the final fight is choreographed rather well in my standards. All the Imagins getting a turn to show off their powers, either as Den-O or as themselves, like Kintaros' smash with a huge concrete piece, or Den-O Rod Form's long range. The final finisher on Death Imagin, that's in Sword Form, but it has the rainbow energy the Climax Form has... so that would put it on Climax Form level?

Nobody wants you to leave. I mean, I definitely don't want you to leave. It's just, sometimes a joke is unhelpful, or inconsiderate, and that's something you need to understand. Generally all it takes is a quick apology, and everyone moves on. As long as it's not something that gets repeated, I'm not going to hold it against you. Welcome back!

Yeah, I meant the DenLiner Imagin, the heroic ones. I'm not sure Ryotaro (or anyone else) is shedding any tears for the disappearance of a rampaging army of imagination monsters from the end of time.

I'm not sure I'd call their survival unexplained, nor would I say that the show never explained the Imagin's origins. Their survival could easily be chalked up to Ryotaro remembering them, since that's how they've survived similar circumstances. (And their origins are explained by the Owner near the beginning of the series?)

It's also an ending that's more about emotion than plot, so it can easily coast by on the warmth it generates. Am I giving it a pass? Okay, maybe!

Sounds good to me!

That's actually what was my aim in my seemingly objections against jokes, for example, like the glorifying of people in Rider series making others miserable and thriving on their suffering because of those depraved acts being funny, like in certain parts of Inoue's work, which can make people get free pass to act inconsiderate and awful all they want without any regard to others, because of how entertaining it will be. I know KR is fiction stuff for me bringing up comedic sociopathy, but I also think that the shows one watches regularly can indeed gradually influence their behaviours, mindsets and worldviews, even though one may be confident think that he or she is immune to those shows' influences. My intention of that joke (though done at wrong time) there also was a plead to not dehumanize someone who is unremarkable, "waste of space", and annoys others due to that.

Like other Kobayashi's Rider series, Den-O also had a theme revolving around wishes, where Ryuki had battle royale which granted a wish to the winner and OOO had Greeed which feeds off human desire. Den-O portrays it in the Imagin who are genie-like monsters who possess a host and asks them for a wish that can be granted. But for the sake of MOTW fights, the Imagins are mostly by default chaotic evil with the exception of Deneb (a part of backstory) and Kintaros (would've disappeared if not for Ryotaro). Imagins don't only represent Ryotaro's aspect played to the extremes where it turns to be severe flaw, but for the contract holders, it seems that Imagins portray that contract holder (unless they're already evil) in their darkest where they would stoop as low as they can without any regard to anyone else to get what they want, and likely to me, an example about how power can corrupt people, that they're free to do anything without consequences (as monsters only Toku stuff can combat them in Den-O), shown in Imagin with all the monster superpowers and having the contract holder's wish.

I can talk about how the plot and setting can be important even if not presented well in some series before, but I have harder time to find the crucial aspect of implementing this. Kai wants to ensure future for Imagins by locating and destroying the Junction Point which is Hana, where Sakurai and Airi fights back by the former giving Zeronos power to Yuuto at the cost erasing himself and Airi letting her memories get erased so Hana can't be located by the Imagins (who can possess people and access their memories). It feels like just one of the methods that can be used by the heroes, instead of a total necessity, the main means is just keeping away Hana from Imagins. The Imagins operate by possessing someone as contract holder and acts according their wish by time travelling to the past, and Den-O crew got the Riders and DenLiner/ZeroLiner to time travel and fight them off. Kai's final defeat is also the usual villain got killed, albeit not directly but Kai releasing Death Imagin that erases him from existence after he's defeated, which can also be done with usual Rider fight/DenLiner time travel.

I̶'̶d̶ ̶l̶i̶k̶e̶ ̶i̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶c̶h̶a̶r̶a̶c̶t̶e̶r̶s̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶d̶e̶s̶c̶r̶i̶b̶e̶d̶ ̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶a̶l̶l̶ ̶u̶s̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶"̶b̶e̶a̶t̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶h̶e̶a̶r̶t̶"̶ ̶b̶u̶t̶ ̶u̶s̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶c̶o̶m̶p̶l̶e̶t̶e̶ ̶b̶o̶d̶y̶ ̶o̶r̶g̶a̶n̶s̶ ̶l̶i̶k̶e̶ ̶b̶r̶a̶i̶n̶,̶ ̶e̶t̶c̶.̶ Ryotaro's story is actually him starting as a weak, clumsy loser, but actually his adventure as Den-O gives him more confidence and determination. So he does get to be the type of hero who'd carry the world on his shoulders, maybe not completely, but he does approach that. Ryotaro's also clearly assertive when he deals with Yuuto's philosophy, he always talks back like pointing out weak isn't an excuse to sit around, or forcefully taking away Yuuto's cards. I think the one thing, at least in main series, that Ryotaro doesn't get compared to other heroes is that he never becomes really good fighter even at the end of the series?

Ryotaro may have constant bad luck and was a dropout, but he still had the wish-fulfillment aspect that he's one of the most important person in the show as a Singularity Point and goes on adventures with an ever-increasing group of friends. One thing that I find Ryotaro different from pure hero archetype is that Ryotaro is really against sacrifices, where people usually glorify heroic sacrifices and even going on wrong conclusion that “self sacrifice alone makes one 100% heroic, irrespective of any amoral or unheroic things that one also did”.

Collectively they're superhero, but I feel like Momo focuses more on the "super" part (not that Momo's completely lacking of heroic traits), and Ryotaro focuses on the "hero" part, and them as collectives can be used as my point for people's mistake that people think hero is merely about saving people and the world, nothing else, and Momo's the one mostly doing superheroics by fighting as Rider to kill Imagins that attack humans. But a hero is supposed to display many morally good trait and deeds in addition to “saving people”, like being generally friendly and helpful towards strangers, even in little things that non-super characters can easily do; Little acts of kindness y'know, which is something Ryotaro often does to the contract holders for instance.

Like you said about KR's appeal being helping people psychologically, society without monsters, like real world, is already full of many ppl who need healing, care, love, compassion and help (doesn't mean you can excuse people's bad action due to having plausible reasons for it!). Claiming saving people as the only thing about heroism is using the definition too broad, and that aspect of heroism Ryotaro has can't be diminished or overlooked, though I feel Ryotaro being overshadowed by Momo or other Taros Imagins speaks about people having that mindset...

Well yeah you do. And for a sibling who runs a coffee shop, that's a running thing in Kobayashi's shows, with the role filled by Sanako in Ryuki and Chiyoko in OOO. All three of them are spacey and eccentric cafe owners who are rather motherly to their employees, but all of whom turn out to be wiser than they let on. And well, you said there that Airi had infinite empathy and the ability to care about people you've never meet because everyone deserves to be cared about..... but that will obviously extend to her treatment to... Ozaki and Miura, like the time where she took Miura to hospital for the accident :p And reminder that the second half about the show is about learning both Sakurai and Airi, not only Sakurai, seems biasedly picky to only bring up Sakurai for the second half talk.

Yuuto being embarassed by Deneb and inflicting comic violence is one of the Den-O's running gags, and Den-O is a gag Kamen Rider, so you already watched an entire series about that! Just that there's also squabbles between Taros Imagins and Ryotaro's bad luck and naming sense as Den-O's other running gag for DenLiner Crew. Yuuto also had Ryotaro (as a Singularity Point who wouldn't forget him) and Airi as he's a young version of Sakurai, but well, dunno if you will touch a Den-O side media revolving this, but there's Episode Red to talk about Airi and Yuuto in current state after Sakurai is erased. Deneb outright defected from Imagin and joined Sakurai via free will, his sense of justice is already there since the beginning, he's a severe oddball among other Imagins who are 95% malicious. And I don't know again if you will touch other parts of Den-O, but if you think Deneb's gentleness is a hindrance to Yuuto's pragmatism in battles, think again, there's a Den-O media that will dispute that. Deneb's nickname from Taros Imagins odebu is a mockery of him, as it's a deformation on his name, which literally means "tubby".

The two main forms used by Zeronos are called Altair and Vega, and Vega specifically is accessed by cards tied to Sakurai (Yuto's produce Zero Form instead). The names are also the stars associated with "The Weaver and the Cowherd," one of the most famous sets of Star-Crossed Lovers in folklore, and underlines the impossibility of the original Sakurai ever returning.

Other than the respective folklore reference like Momo's Peach Boy and Ura's Urashima no Taro, Imagins are related to the Three Musketeers where Momotaros represents Athos, Urataros represents Aramis, Kintaros represents D'Artagnan, Ryutaros represents Porthos. And possession gives them a new haircut and a dye job, like the Imagins in Den-O, and later, in OOO for Ankh's where the change was blond hair, curly on one side, and close cut on the other before a thin braid runs along the side. While Ryotaro's bad luck transfer over to Momo, the other Imagins unwittingly give Ryotaro bad luck, where Ura gives him awkward situation to deal with girls, Kin is not made for normal human operation to break things easily due to super strength, and Ryuta is volatile to create collateral damage and him being trigger-happy to kill someone. The trivial things they have for gag is that Momo can't swim, has strange reactions to red peppers, and is terrified of dogs, while Ura has the opposite where as a turtle, he's an expert swimmer. Ura excels in things that women would find appealing like kendo and piano. Kintaros employs tissues to serve his cry catchphrase and reacts strangely to spicy things. Ryuta draws and fills entire room with those. Sieg will be known more in the side medias, but he's a stuck up brat but the solution is to fight back then he'll be amazed by those who doesn't submit to him (Hana with her super strength can, but not likely for ordinary humans who can't measure to monsters).

She seems like the easier character to praise on the surface that she's gorgeous, acts harsh and rough towards the Imagins (also being in charge in DenLiner crew like her to Ryotaro), has super strength, and frequently shows it off by beating up the Taros Imagins, while producing (another one of running gags in Den-O) gags in that antics. Those seems to be what general audience typically asks for regarding female. The Junction Point reveal, yeah I feel that too, it's weaponizing her (not via her super strength or battle) against Kai that they just make the final revelation of Kai's failures before Kai got destroyed for good. Hana has unwittingly protected her uncle by that reveal too (but still not using her Junction Point traits), and that means they literally can't be shipped then. Another Hana's trait is that she has multiple clothes outside of DenLiner, she'll wear random and varied clothing other than her maid-like uniform outside DenLiner.

The first half was formulaic about various Imagins possessing contract holders and acts according to their wishes with DenLiner and ZeroLiner crew travelling in time to stop them, with the running gags like Deneb embarassing Yuuto in-between. I thought the second half's overarching plot can be ignored like the monster fights in first half, especially that the second half still has the complete running gags, but I guess the IOTW, even if formulaic, is investing enough to get to know about the contract holder and Imagin's relationship to them?

Well sorry but I like details, and again talking about it here. About Kai's past being shrouded in mystery, how he got his Time Master powers, how he ended up working with the Imagin, there's also a good plot reason, where from his heavily degraded mental state and how many of his own memories he's erased in the process, it's likely even Kai himself can't remember anymore. He's a literal representatino about how the dark side will make you forget, he's destroyed a large number of his own past selves, and a good chunk of his memories along with them by sending Imagin back in time. While it's implied he at least started with good intentions, by the time he appears he's more or less gone completely insane due to this.

A lot to think about there, DreadBringer! Thanks for the feedback and opinions!

FAREWELL KAMEN RIDER DEN-O: FINAL COUNTDOWN

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/...rewellkdoa.png

Hey, kids! Meet the brand-new Den-O in this film about how prolonging something past its natural end is at best exhausting, and at worst a kind of living death!

Weird movie! Weird movie. It's trying to do three different things, all at various levels of effectiveness. It's trying to send off Ryotaro, introduce Kotaro, and provide a template for an infinitely flexible/refreshable Den-O franchise. I don't think there's any part it explicitly fails at, but the tension of those three objectives make for some rough sledding, especially in the first half hour.

Like, I'm trying to think of a Kamen Rider I instantly disliked more than Kotaro, and I'm coming up empty. I mean, I've hated some characters more eventually, but very few have I hated as much on their debut. Having Kotaro show up as the new Den-O and basically go Old Den-O Stuff Sucks for twenty straight minutes of the goddamn Farewell To Ryotaro movie... bold choice! Not, uh, not the one I would've made, but it definitely provides an arc for Kotaro's character.

He gets there by the end, maybe. It's a fairly standard arc, where an overly-confident hero is humbled by a loss and works with the people he formerly shunned in order to achieve victory. The actor tries, anyway. It's just too difficult to feel invested in a guy who just showed up, told everyone they suck, ate shit, and then got a pity invite to their big celebration. Kotaro starts as an interloper and ends as an outsider, which is largely a function of the plot, but the character has enough unrealized potential that I'll try not to hold this introductory story against him.

It's... that's sort of the big problem this movie has, and it's the same one that occasionally held back the series, in my opinion. There's incredibly fun character stuff happening, and some very charming actors, but there's always this top-down plot stuff that keeps it from being the fun hang-out story it clearly wants to be.

Kotaro showing up is plot stuff, something outside the group that derails (sorry) the real fun of this movie, which is all of the Imagin hanging out and being ridiculous. Kotaro is the Sakurai nonsense that always threatened to put the brakes on the comedy and drama that could develop out of the characters. There's plenty to build a movie around from just the characters we're already invested in. Having Kotaro show up and stop the fun dead so we can try and address his mysteries and traumas (spoiler: they are not at all worth the effort), it starts and ends this movie in a zone that devalues the characters and tone we all love from Den-O; it feels like work.

But the middle section of this movie is the best.

It's exactly what I'd've hoped for in a new Den-O movie. As soon as the Imagin get to Edo period Japan, this thing found its rhythm. It's all about friction and teamwork and excitable monsters and bad planning and a weird but hard-fought belief that if they all work together, anything is possible. There's a bit where Momo enters their hideout, sees Sieg, and immediately goes Nope that killed me. When these characters and their richly-defined relationships get to just sprawl out, it's perfect. This was a series that always succeeded when it focused on character, so a middle section that's just about the Den-Liner crew (plus Deneb and Sieg, because Kobayashi loves us) working together to free Ryotaro from the villain's grasp while also saving all of time from destruction? That part is so good, and so right, that it's weird how much of this film isn't that.

It all just comes back to the plot, and how it feels something that's being done to the characters, not anything growing out of them. There's a monster, and that monster wants to use Ryotaro to destroy Ryotaro's ancestors (which would invert the singularity point for reasons that just killing his ancestors wouldn't Because, so that's why Ryotaro has to get possessed), and Kotaro gets brought to the present to help Because, and it's all just things the characters react to without being terribly invested in.

Well, Momo's invested in freeing Ryotaro, and that... I think it's a story that works better thematically than it does narratively. Like, Ryotaro being possessed for more than half of his final story sucks. That's a frustrating choice, no matter how cathartic it is to see that Ore Sanjou moment eventually. It's a story that doesn't really have any room to end Ryotaro's story, so it mostly just doesn't? I honest-to-god had to double-check the wiki to make sure this was Ryotaro's last Den-O story (before his Heisei Generations return), because nothing in this story really feels like Ryotaro's story is done. There's no reason for him not to be in future Den-O stories, other than it would be creatively bankrupt and utterly mercenary. Ryotaro's story is over, and we just need to be okay with that, I guess.

I liked that part of this movie the best, how the villain's plot is to force someone he loves to live forever because of his selfishness and inability to accept an ending. I like that Kobayashi wrote a Den-O story that's both a roadmap for how to do Den-O stories without Ryotaro - focus on the Imagin and just plug some bland new handsome dude into the hero role - while also critiquing the need to extend Den-O indefinitely. There's an ambivalence about this movie that's both depressing and exhilarating, a bummed-out feeling that the creators would rather acknowledge and confront than ignore and forget. I get the feeling that no one involved in replacing Ryotaro was convinced it was a good idea, but they're trying it anyway.

That all made for a movie that ended better than it started, but still not one I ever fully got onboard with conceptually. Some of it was the distracting thought of The Story I Wished They'd Told (like, just make Yuuto the new Den-O, problem solved), but a lot of it was just how weirdly inessential and unnecessary this whole story was. It's Shiro's thing with Sora, but as a superhero franchise designed to sell toys to Japanese children. Den-O was fun, and it ended, and now its corpse is trotted out to try to reignite the same devotion it once effortlessly generated. Ryotaro seems checked out, Airi and the Airimirers are there when they don't need to be (I love how they 100% did not have the Milk Dipper set anymore), and whatever fun there is (and there's fun!) comes with an echo of how Den-O needs to be put away. Sora's sadness was never that she wanted to live again. Her sadness was that extending her life devalued it, and she'd rather be honest about that. It's hard to say goodbye to something you love, but it's maybe harder to be refused the chance to say goodbye at all.

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/...rewellkdob.png

THE BAGGAGE CAR

-I'm glad to be back watching Den-O, finding a way to make a crowd-pleasing bit of fan-service sound like a hollowed-out and dispiriting endeavor! I did enjoy the middle section of this movie, for what it's worth. Sieg is an all-star in this movie (there's a bit where he does his catchphrase, then everyone else does their catchphrase, and then the camera lands back on him to say I Already Did Mine, and it's the smartest joke in maybe all of the movie), Hana's great, all of the stuff where the Imagin are roommates was so agreeable that I don't even care if it's not pushing the narrative forward. Let me hang out with these dopes forever, even if it's making them miserable. I will be Shiro in that scenario, happily.

-I like the new Den-O suit, too. I've seen it before, in the OOO movie. I like the blue and silver, the way the wings look like scaffolding. It comes across as a suit that's literally building on its predecessor, you know?

-Not as crazy about the villain suit! (Super glad for that ol' Heisei Phase 1 thing of Oops We Forgot To Ever Say The Evil Rider Name Out Loud, incidentally.) It's just a Gaoh repaint, and I don't get the thing with the tops? I always figure stuff like that is some cultural thing I don't have a reference for. Either way, not that memorable.

-This was just a quick check-in on Den-O! I'll be PMing Decade contributors over the next few days to get that train rolling (not sorry), and then I'll be back in this thread after Decade's done to see if the further adventures of Kotaro feel any more vital or necessary. I hope so! I always hope so!

-Not that I want to keep shitting on a movie that really doesn't deserve this level of criticism, but I really like how this movie comes across as almost an indictment of drawing strength from memories, the core thesis of the TV series. Sora's request, at the end, is to be forgotten, since being remembered forever by Shiro is a trap. It's this movie sort of saying that it's cool to love Den-O as a TV show, but please stop loving Den-O so much that they aren't allowed to stop making it. I love this movie's ambivalence about its own existence!

So I didn’t really put together a detailed credits for the Imagin in this movie, but I have seen all of this movie’s new VAs elsewhere.

The one who possesses Ryotaro to make Skull Form is voiced by Hiroshi Kamiya, who hosts a radio show with Ryuta’s VA Kenichi Suzumura. His main Toku role is, suitably, another goofy purple dragon, Uchuu Sentai Kyuranger’s Shou Ronpo/Ryu Violet/Ryu Commander.

The voice of Teddy is Daisuke Endo, who’s other major credit I know him from is the narrator for Ultraman Taiga (and the singer for the movie theme for that series)

And one of our background extras is Tomokazu Sugita, on a break from telling people to “Wake Up”. He also portrayed Demushu on Gaim, the titular character (and his evil counterpart Dark Lugiel) in Ultraman Ginga, Kamen Rider Ginga in Zi-O and the narrator, equipment voice and voice of King/Mashin Oladdin in Kiramager. He’s also a major otaku.

In terms of opinions - it was nice to see all the Den-O forms fighting side by side (since that normally only happens in Final Stages that don’t have a lot of Riders in the main show) and the Edo setting makes for a unique backdrop. But yeah, I can totally get this not being a great intro to Kotaro (even though my formal intro was the Den-O/Decade movie). The most I remember about him is a) his countdowns and b) he got a CSM before regular Den-O (which reveals what each of his other three buttons do).